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blankseplocked Prevent Market TRADE-SCAM- Remove Margin Trading ASAP!
 
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dosperado
Denial of Service
Posted - 2011.06.13 15:49:00 - [1]
 

Hey CCP,

just remove the Skill "Margin Trading" and you will remove 99 % of all market trade scam from Jita!

This skill is totally useless. If you want to set a buy order for something, u should have the ISK anyway.

So remove that skill and free the skillpoints to reallocate them.

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:14:00 - [2]
 

I disagree... It's extremely useful for margin trading.

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:27:00 - [3]
 

If I want to trade on margin I will want this skill. Not supported.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:33:00 - [4]
 

Something being used for a scam is not reason enough to remove it that's like saying they should remove laser cannons because they are used to make pretty screenshots.

The skill most certainly have a use, and the way it's set up, it ensures that neither buyer nor seller gets hurt in the process.

And finally, scams are allowed in this game, so why should they be prevented, especially ones that are blindingly obvious as the margin trade scam?

So no.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:46:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 13/06/2011 18:47:22
Originally by: dosperado
Hey CCP,

just remove the Skill "Margin Trading" and you will remove 99 % of all market trade scam from Jita!

This skill is totally useless. If you want to set a buy order for something, u should have the ISK anyway.

So remove that skill and free the skillpoints to reallocate them.


Not only will this not reduce attempts to scam but it will reduce sandbox type play from the market. Do we really want to remove all necessity for the buyer to beware?

I vote no.

DetKhord Saisio
Caldari
Unchained Potential
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.15 16:02:00 - [6]
 

/not supported

Also, the buy order scam can be countered by actually manufacturing the item and selling to the buy order. This tact requires pre-plannning and patience but the reward is very fulfilling.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.06.15 16:17:00 - [7]
 

Not supported.

Remember the adage - If it seems to good to be true, it probably is.

Retard Guy
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:31:00 - [8]
 

In all other scamming its a 2 party transaction. For example, if I buy something from someone unknowing that they switched the item, I click the button and get a lame ship. This can be considered fair, I clicked the button after all. On the other hand, margin trading exploits a part of the game that was supposed to be secure. Having a CCP sanctioned 3rd party telling you there is someone buying an item at a certain price shouldn't be gray area. There should at least be a penalty for failing at filling the order. IRL there would at least be the option for lawsuit or physical attack... we can't even see who the scammer is in eve, making this a scam without a chance of repercussion. That isn't sandbox game play, they are exploiting the market hiding behind a mechanic, and the victim never gets a chance to see the person violating them. What happens to trade when vendors put up phantom buy orders just to move there regularly priced products?

Monstress
Posted - 2011.07.09 12:36:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Monstress on 09/07/2011 12:39:22
As a margin trader with the skill trained to 5, I find it actually very useful... at margin trading. You should try it some time.

Not supported at all.

EDIT: Just noticed this got necro'd. In response to above, it's been mentioned before that a different color should be used for buy orders created by players with the margin trading skill to make it obvious to the seller - I'm not against this if it ever happened.

Material Research
Posted - 2011.07.09 12:47:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Material Research on 09/07/2011 12:52:43
The ones saying the skill is fine as it is are most likely the ones that use it for the exploit. Not to mention the guy a few post ago that doesn't have a clue what we are talking about here.

If CCP's market fronts you the money CCP's market needs to verify the product will be purchased as claimed. Its simply a flaw in the system, you can't loan money then let people default without repercussions. I've seen a suggestion for standings to factor in, this sounds like a good starting place.

Margin Trading needs to be fixed.

Edit: Necro'd maybe if its been dead for a while, this is still warm to the touch. I'm gonna be nice and assume they used the search function to find something relevant to what they were looking for instead of making a new qq thread.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.09 13:47:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 09/07/2011 13:49:11
Originally by: Material Research
If CCP's market fronts you the money CCP's market needs to verify the product will be purchased as claimed. Its simply a flaw in the system, you can't loan money then let people default without repercussions.
Except that this is not what happens. No money is fronted; there is no loan. Quite the opposite, in fact. The way the skill it set up means that both parties are being protected from loss the buyer does not risk running into red, and the seller does not risk losing his goods without getting paid.

The skill simply lets you defer part of the payment until the trade actually takes place.

The only thing that's being exploited is people's greed and inability to recognise that they're paying way over market price for something they don't need.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2011.07.12 04:25:00 - [12]
 

The reason that the currently Margin Trading mechanic is problematic is because it can be exploited, not because every use of it is an exploit, so a fix to the problem should eliminate the exploitive uses while retaining as much of the utility of the mechanic as possible:

Originally by: Tippia
The way the skill it set up means that both parties are being protected from loss the buyer does not risk running into red, and the seller does not risk losing his goods without getting paid.

The reason to fix the the mechanic is because there are better ways to offer the "protection" Tippia sees. E.g., the system could:
  • cause the Buy Order to be filled to the extent possible with the ISK in escrow before being cancelled;

  • require enough ISK in escrow to cover at least the minimum quantity set in the Buy Order; or

  • require that a Pilot or Corporation division using the Margin Trading skill have enough ISK in their wallet so that each Buy Order, considered one at a time, could be filled at any time, with any unfillable orders cancelled with a loss of Broker Fee to the would-have-been Buyer.

Each of these options maintains most of the usefulness of the Margin Trading skill, while better protecting of Sellers from intentionally false offers in the market. The problem is not Margin Trading, it is the ability granted in the current mechanism to set orders that the putative Buyer knows will not be honoured.

A RL trader making bogus order like that would find his or her trading career cut short, so why do Brokers in New Eden keep taking orders from deadbeat Pilots?

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.12 06:38:00 - [13]
 

A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2011.07.12 11:56:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.

The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.

There's plenty of scamming opportunity for scammers out there without reliance on broken mechanics... that's just weak scamming. This broken market mechanic is not a necessary feature for the existence of scamming in New Eden.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.12 13:12:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.

The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.

There's plenty of scamming opportunity for scammers out there without reliance on broken mechanics... that's just weak scamming. This broken market mechanic is not a necessary feature for the existence of scamming in New Eden.


The only thing broken is people's inability to recognize when something is too good to be true. Unfortunately, there's not a damned thing CCP can do to fix that.

I mean honestly, if someone is paying twice the going rate for a minimum order of a million units of something, doesn't some small part of your brain go "Hey. Hey! Don't click that yet! I smell something funny!"

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:50:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
A bloo bloo bloo I got scammed so CCP needs to change game mechanics instead of me not being a moron.

The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.

There's plenty of scamming opportunity for scammers out there without reliance on broken mechanics... that's just weak scamming. This broken market mechanic is not a necessary feature for the existence of scamming in New Eden.


Again, your problem not CCP's.

Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:03:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Thoraemond
The problem is not that there is a scam per se, but rather that this type of scam depends on a flawed game mechanic that could be, and should be fixed.


Again, your problem not CCP's.


To be more clear, and I'm sorry you missed my point above, the "problem" I have is that CCP is choosing to maintain a lacklustre Margin Trading mechanic rather than improving that mechanic, where there are specific and relatively-straight-forward improvements available.

While this is a problem I would like to fix, I consider the coding of game mechanics, such as this one, to be squarely in the domain of things controlled by CCP, and hence their "problem".

I have no hesitation suggesting that, as a general principle, broken or poorly-designed game mechanics should be fixed or improved. Fixing the currently-broken Margin Trading mechanic is just an example.


P.S. If you imply that my "problem" is that I was scammed by someone using this exploit, please know that such did not occur. Moreover, the only scams I have ever seen taking advantage of this exploit have only been up to the 3 or 4 billion ISK range, so even if I had fallen victim to such a scam, that loss would not be a big deal.

TheFifteenthTry
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:58:00 - [18]
 

The reason you want margin trading is because it allows you to have many orders up at once. Some of these may not fill for months and while that happens your wallet goes up and down. If I buy a very high cost item that makes 10% or more I may not have the money to cover the rest of my buy orders but they generally won't fill. Once I sell that item I can then fill those orders. So fixing this skill is NOT needed it is actually the best skill for a market trader to have.

Whiners:
Get scammed, learn lesson, move on.

This happened to me I am better off for it. Now I use margin trading legitimately to make lots of money if this skill was modified in the least it would drastically affect my fun in EVE.


Thoraemond
Minmatar
Far Ranger
Posted - 2011.07.13 11:14:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: TheFifteenthTry
The reason you want margin trading is because it allows you to have many orders up at once. Some of these may not fill for months and while that happens your wallet goes up and down. If I buy a very high cost item that makes 10% or more I may not have the money to cover the rest of my buy orders but they generally won't fill. Once I sell that item I can then fill those orders. So fixing this skill is NOT needed it is actually the best skill for a market trader to have.

An explanation of how the skill currently functions is not a reason to leave it like that; it is simply a description of the status quo. If you have read my post above, you will have seen that there are possibilities to improve the Margin Trading mechanic that retain its usefulness for traders such as you and I.


Originally by: TheFifteenthTry
Whiners: Get scammed, learn lesson, move on.

I didn't get scammed and I'm not whining, but I agree with you that those who were scammed and who do nothing but whine about it are contributing little to the discussion.


Originally by: TheFifteenthTry
Now I use margin trading legitimately to make lots of money if this skill was modified in the least it would drastically affect my fun in EVE.

It looks like you are failing to distinguish between (i) removing Margin Trading altogether (which I do not support), and (ii) improving how the mechanic works. If you are truly claiming that the current implementation of Margin Trading is the only possible implementation that would be useful to you, I you probably failed to understand the options for improvement I suggested.

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:37:00 - [20]
 

Again, working as intended.

Sorry that you/your brother/friend/mother/dog got scammed but welcome to Eve Online.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:26:00 - [21]
 

How does the seller actually lose out?

do they lose their isk? no.
do they lose the goods? no.

Sell the items to someone else and profit. Unless you bought at an inflated price, which goes against the basic rule of "buy low, sell high" and means you deserve the loss.

Any situation that is "buy high, sell higher" should ring alarm bells.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:31:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Glyken Touchon
How does the seller actually lose out?

do they lose their isk? no.
do they lose the goods? no.

Sell the items to someone else and profit. Unless you bought at an inflated price, which goes against the basic rule of "buy low, sell high" and means you deserve the loss.

Any situation that is "buy high, sell higher" should ring alarm bells.
Gold star for you.

It's really that simple.


 

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