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Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:24:00 - [31]
 

Ok so I'm probably one of the better people to comment on this. 90% of my extensive PvP experience is me in a small gang of 4 to 10 and me in a Falcon in low sec.

We fly with a Falcon(s) because they will reliably shut down 3 BC or 2 BSes. I armor tank my Falcon also. However, another Falcon can shut me down, or an Arazu can too. Or a double ECCM Maelstrom or a ECCM Pulse Apocolypse (which we bring to shoot thier Falcons or logis. Also Macharials screw us up too since they are OP.

If you want to make a simple yet effective change to ECM then make ECCM a reactive module. If I have been jammed and I have an ECCM I can activate it and re establish all my locks. As a Falcon pilot I need to not blow all my modules on one ship. I will need to double up on jammers. Now I can only reliably jam two BCs

Zverofaust
Gallente
Ascetic Virtues
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:35:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Cloora
Now I can only reliably jam two BCs


"Now I can only reliably completely nullify the existence of two BCs as if they weren't even there, for the cost of a single ship. This is balanced!"

TBQH the best suggestion by far is to make ECMs break all of a ship's locks, not keep them jammed indefinately. After every cycle on every activated ECM module, the target's lock is broken again. You could even get the current "perma jam" effect by coupling a Falcon with an Arazu, Arazu damping target speed to ****, Falcon breaking locks every 30 seconds -- except it requires teamwork from two different ships and actual effort, rather than "loluncloakpermajam button".

DeceivingApperance
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:44:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: DeceivingApperance on 13/06/2011 16:55:46
as an _ACTUAL_ ECM user:
* ecm ships are papertanks
* if a single ecm jam fails, chances are ill die, in a fire
* if it doesnt fail, the other guy will be annoyed, and ill get to shoot a little more until next rotation
* if you put 1 eccm mod on your ship, i will die...

1v1 can be unfair, yes, but its the same with targeting range dampening...

i dont think anyone in this thread grasps the amount of work needed to change ecm
ccp would have to completely redesign all ecm ships

Akiba Penrose
The Praxis Initiative
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:46:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
ECM should be 100% AoE, including being able to affect friendly targets.


This seem to me as the best choice, if you want to keep the same chance-based mechanics.

Filling the grid with "noise", and putting an upper limit on how much noise there can be.

Also with such a change you'd have to change it so that the signature radius was counted for when calculating the jam chance. Otherwise one ecm-ship could probably take out all frigs/cruisers.



It would probably make ecm-ships boring as hell to fly, unless they got some dps/tank buff.






Captain Futur3
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:46:00 - [35]
 

Quote:
TBQH the best suggestion by far is to make ECMs break all of a ship's locks, not keep them jammed indefinately. After every cycle on every activated ECM module, the target's lock is broken again.


I think this would be the best solution also. Sounds far better and still useful than it is actually.


Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:53:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zverofaust
Originally by: Cloora
Now I can only reliably jam two BCs


"Now I can only reliably completely nullify the existence of two BCs as if they weren't even there, for the cost of a single ship. This is balanced!"

TBQH the best suggestion by far is to make ECMs break all of a ship's locks, not keep them jammed indefinately. After every cycle on every activated ECM module, the target's lock is broken again. You could even get the current "perma jam" effect by coupling a Falcon with an Arazu, Arazu damping target speed to ****, Falcon breaking locks every 30 seconds -- except it requires teamwork from two different ships and actual effort, rather than "loluncloakpermajam button".


Uh yeah all Recons can nullify two other ships. I thought this was about balancing recons?

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:56:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Captain Futur3
Quote:
TBQH the best suggestion by far is to make ECMs break all of a ship's locks, not keep them jammed indefinately. After every cycle on every activated ECM module, the target's lock is broken again.


I think this would be the best solution also. Sounds far better and still useful than it is actually.




Then you better give my Falcon a HAC tank. My 1600mm RT plate and DC II let me survive from being alphaed by a ECCM 1400mm Arty Mael or tank some drones while my smarties work on popping them but other then that if I miss a jam I'm off grid pretty fast. Breaking someone's lock every 20 seconds is too harsh of a nerf IMO.

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:58:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: DeceivingApperance
Edited by: DeceivingApperance on 13/06/2011 16:55:46
as an _ACTUAL_ ECM user:
* ecm ships are papertanks
* if a single ecm jam fails, chances are ill die, in a fire
* if it doesnt fail, the other guy will be annoyed, and ill get to shoot a little more until next rotation
* if you put 1 eccm mod on your ship, i will die...

1v1 can be unfair, yes, but its the same with targeting range dampening...

i dont think anyone in this thread grasps the amount of work needed to change ecm
ccp would have to completely redesign all ecm ships



I agree with you a little bit. Maybe buff ECCM a bit more because I have jammed BSes with ECCM enough to sway a fight still. Two ECCMs and I still jam them from time to time. If they are short range DPS ships I'm still on grid. However, if they were smart and have one long range setup I'm toast.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:58:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Captain Futur3
Quote:
TBQH the best suggestion by far is to make ECMs break all of a ship's locks, not keep them jammed indefinately. After every cycle on every activated ECM module, the target's lock is broken again.


I think this would be the best solution also. Sounds far better and still useful than it is actually.


you can have that if you cut my jammers cycle by at least half.

Captain Futur3
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:02:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Cloora
Originally by: Captain Futur3
Quote:
TBQH the best suggestion by far is to make ECMs break all of a ship's locks, not keep them jammed indefinately. After every cycle on every activated ECM module, the target's lock is broken again.


I think this would be the best solution also. Sounds far better and still useful than it is actually.




Then you better give my Falcon a HAC tank. My 1600mm RT plate and DC II let me survive from being alphaed by a ECCM 1400mm Arty Mael or tank some drones while my smarties work on popping them but other then that if I miss a jam I'm off grid pretty fast. Breaking someone's lock every 20 seconds is too harsh of a nerf IMO.


You know you can have 4 jammers, right? After some rethinking, i still think that this would be overpowered too. You could simply jamm every 7 seconds. So a pilot has just 7 seconds to track a target (normally this can be up to 5 seconds) and fire. I think this is still overpowered.
Argh the best solution seems to remove it completely from the game. Its boring as hell and not well balanced. No reason to let it in the game. Give jamm ships some different bonus and everyone is happy.

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:33:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Captain Futur3

You know you can have 4 jammers, right? After some rethinking, i still think that this would be overpowered too. You could simply jamm every 7 seconds. So a pilot has just 7 seconds to track a target (normally this can be up to 5 seconds) and fire. I think this is still overpowered.
Argh the best solution seems to remove it completely from the game. Its boring as hell and not well balanced. No reason to let it in the game. Give jamm ships some different bonus and everyone is happy.


I carry 6 jammers and a MWD in the mids. Sometimes I run 5 jammers and an ECCM and a MWD but I armor tank. Makes my Falcon align slow and hard to get it off grid but I found this is the best use of the ships bonus. Yes it is powerful, but so is a Curse and so is an Arazu and so is a Rapier all to the right ships.

Yes I can make you feeble and unable to do anything except run in my Falcon, but I can't tackle you and kill you. A Rapier adnd a Curse scare the poop out of many ships, active tanked or fast ones. They can hold you down and then kill you. My falcon? Not so much. It may be slightly OP in small ganngs but in larger fights I am scared to even decloak. No other ship gets called primary faster then a Falcon except maybe logistics.

Sarpadeon
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:23:00 - [42]
 

scale jamming duration based on the ships sensor strength vs the jamming strength, along with the current chance system of jamming, so an ECCM fit ship or one with naturally very high sensor would take multiple jammers to permajam

ie jamming strength/sensor strength = jamming duration modifier

20 jam/40 sensor = 0.5 jamming duration multiplier

sensor strength would then directly reduce the duration you spend jammed completely, along with reducing the chance to get jammed in the first place.

they would need to look at, and probably modify the sensor strength of most ships ingame though, or reduce the bonuses/base strength of some jammers or ships

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:38:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Cloora on 13/06/2011 18:41:18
Originally by: Sarpadeon
scale jamming duration based on the ships sensor strength vs the jamming strength, along with the current chance system of jamming, so an ECCM fit ship or one with naturally very high sensor would take multiple jammers to permajam

ie jamming strength/sensor strength = jamming duration modifier

20 jam/40 sensor = 0.5 jamming duration multiplier

sensor strength would then directly reduce the duration you spend jammed completely, along with reducing the chance to get jammed in the first place.


This is a pretty good idea. Needs some numbers tweaking but I like it. Would also scale well with the different races sensor strengths

they would need to look at, and probably modify the sensor strength of most ships ingame though, or reduce the bonuses/base strength of some jammers or ships

Gunner Cid
The Carebear Stare
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:38:00 - [44]
 

My Ideas;

1. Remove all "off racial" jam strength, your gallente jammers only jam gallente ships, period.
2. Remove Multispecs/multispec drones - introduce racial specialized drones
3. Limit of 4 ECM modules max fitted per ship
4. Introduce a couple of sensor strength skills; a lvl 3 +5% base ship sensor str per lvl and a lvl 8 skil +2% per level

Keep the "on racial" jam strength the same. This will place more importance on effective scouting etc. If somebody blobs me with 4 falcons then I failed to properly identify what I am fighting, my mistake.

This would keep ECM in the game, maintain a role for ECM specialized ships. About as "balanced" as I could think of.

Cloora
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:43:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Cloora on 13/06/2011 18:43:43
Originally by: Gunner Cid
My Ideas;

1. Remove all "off racial" jam strength, your gallente jammers only jam gallente ships, period.
2. Remove Multispecs/multispec drones - introduce racial specialized drones
3. Limit of 4 ECM modules max fitted per ship
4. Introduce a couple of sensor strength skills; a lvl 3 +5% base ship sensor str per lvl and a lvl 8 skil +2% per level

Keep the "on racial" jam strength the same. This will place more importance on effective scouting etc. If somebody blobs me with 4 falcons then I failed to properly identify what I am fighting, my mistake.

This would keep ECM in the game, maintain a role for ECM specialized ships. About as "balanced" as I could think of.


I would tweak that a bit and let there be multispec jammers but reduce thier strength. Also the 4 EMC jammers per ship is not needed. Thats over the top.

Captain Futur3
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:46:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Gunner Cid
My Ideas;

1. Remove all "off racial" jam strength, your gallente jammers only jam gallente ships, period.
2. Remove Multispecs/multispec drones - introduce racial specialized drones
3. Limit of 4 ECM modules max fitted per ship
4. Introduce a couple of sensor strength skills; a lvl 3 +5% base ship sensor str per lvl and a lvl 8 skil +2% per level

Keep the "on racial" jam strength the same. This will place more importance on effective scouting etc. If somebody blobs me with 4 falcons then I failed to properly identify what I am fighting, my mistake.

This would keep ECM in the game, maintain a role for ECM specialized ships. About as "balanced" as I could think of.


I think this is a pretty bad idea. PvP in EVE is already way too much decided before the battle begins. It will only make PvP more boring than it is. It will be like this:

you warp in, notice the enemy ships and can instantly make suicide or the enemy can do this (if they dont escape). Looks not as if i want to play that game, its already too much like that.

Gunner Cid
The Carebear Stare
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:14:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Cloora


I would tweak that a bit and let there be multispec jammers but reduce thier strength. Also the 4 EMC jammers per ship is not needed. Thats over the top.


Ya far from perfect, just throwing things out there.

In any other(3) serious MMO I have played there has always been diminishing returns on any lockouts. But I don't think that would go over well with eve. I truly like the 4 max limit option because it forces the falcon pilot to make decisions.

Making a max limit of the module type fitted would address a couple things, it would bring ECM Ships more inline with the "crowd control" power of other ships, it would reduce the ability of my single alt reliably removing 3-4 opponents from the field while I gank them.

People would just bring more Falcons - I am ok with that, if I get myself into that situation it is my fault.

Currently can fit alts 2cal/2matar/1amar/1gal and my buddy can fit his alt 2amar/2gal/1cal/1amar and we can basically be safe in most situatations.

I have also been a fan of the skill idea for a while, just a passive bonus like that could work out well.

Kunming
Amarr
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
Xenon-Empire
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:25:00 - [48]
 

Bring back 2003 ECM.. we had great fun doing cycle jamming and it required skill, why was that changed in the first place anyone remember?Question

Laurent Savard
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:38:00 - [49]
 

I don't think I favor making all ECM AoE like ECM Burst, but changes that make that a more attractive option could be good.

Another option might be do not "break" all locks, but simply "grey them out?" IE you still have the targets locked, but you are unable to actually activate any modules against them, but as soon as the jam breaks, you have full access to all your targets?

Or remove/nerf multispectrals and re-jigger it so that the racials are pretty much required to be used against the appropriate ships. LADAR jammer is totally ineffective against a Gravimetric ship, etc.

Or maybe change ECM (and its counterparts like Damps) into a a module that uses some kind of "ammo" etc.

Barghiest
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:07:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Barghiest on 13/06/2011 20:09:31
I believe what is missing from ECM/ECCM is frequency.

You cannot tune in or out of the situation. If the ECCM and ECM mods had a tuning dial, then things could get interesting.

On ships without ECCM, then there is maybe only one frequency (but why?) - Why could I not gimp myself by trying to target on a different frequency (range, strength, etc.).

All ships, like the ECM modes themselves, should have different types of targeting frequencies with different properties (related to their relationship with the races). And I should be able to apply a different frequency to a targeting sequence thus, possibly, confounding the person who is attempting to Jam me.

If it is a falcon, and he puts all 4 types on me, so be it, thems the breaks. But if I cycle through different frequencies, maybe I get a better chance to break one of those ECM mods?

It may be noise, but even noise can be filtered.

Gaius BaItar
Posted - 2011.06.13 20:07:00 - [51]
 

If you remove ECM, spider tank will become OP.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:32:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Gaius BaItar
If you remove ECM, spider tank will become OP.


Not at all. There are plenty of other ways to hurt spiders. ECM is just the first choice.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:34:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
ECM is just the first choice.


and the most effective.

Captain Futur3
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:45:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Val'Dore
ECM is just the first choice.


and the most effective.


this just proves the overpowerness of ECM if it is the best way to stop a different overpowered game mechanic. But a very weak reason to let it stay in game. Or should CCP now introduce something even better to counter ECM and then all ppl say its overpowered but it shall not be removed because else, ECM will be overpowered? Rolling Eyes

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:45:00 - [55]
 

Change them to remote ECM bursts like the supercarriers have.

Target a ship, and burst jam him and all others (including friendlies) within a 5km radius. Maybe add a jam duration like the current system to the burst, only much shorter, say 5 seconds or so. This would cause problems for huddled blobs (forcing some actual maneuvers instead of orbit FC at 1km), while making ECM that little bit less effective against single targets.







Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.06.13 21:47:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Val'Dore
ECM is just the first choice.


and the most effective.


Which is why it is the first choice Surprised

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:07:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 13/06/2011 22:07:51
Originally by: Val'Dore
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Val'Dore
ECM is just the first choice.


and the most effective.


Which is why it is the first choice Surprised
it's more like the other choices aren't really that great. ok dampners might work on logis going longrange, but it doesn't do much to RR BS'es all sitting tight in a ball. and cap warfare can only go so far.

Spank Boss
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:28:00 - [58]
 

Reduce Falcon/Rook ecm bonus from 10% per lvl to 5% per lvl and add in an bonus to increase targets heat damage (overloading) by a certain % per lvl. Cut ship build cost by20%

Bubanni
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.06.13 23:41:00 - [59]
 

I.personly think an ecm change that would just break the lock could be awesome, but with a faster cycle.

People could the this together with sensor damp scan res of the target to mimic the effect of perma jamming. But at the same time make a new balance... the exact numbers will have to be tested a lot to make sure It's not nerfed too much or is still too powerfull.


Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.14 01:00:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 14/06/2011 01:01:34
Edit: Holy crap I nerdraged. Leaving it as it is, just putting the TL;DR warning up for anyone stumbling on to it.

The issue with ECM from a game balance standpoint is it is effectively a random chance silence, or a stupidly powerful almost constant silence.

From anyone who plays MOBAs knows, Silence is an effective CC but in most tactical games it is balanced by a variety of things. In Eve, the silence is ******edly implemented.

Any overall electronic warfare overhaul needs to really take a look at MOBAs such as DotA and LoL for inspiration as to what balanced yet fun crowd control looks like from a gameplay standpoint and not any roleplay perspective.

As far as CC and non-damage effects goes Eve has silence (which is made stupidly long by combination of 30s timer plus the lock mechanism), a 'root' (scram/point), slow debuff, range debuff, damage increase to afflicted debuff, damage dealt decreased for afflicted debuff, mana damage, and mana drain.

There are no stuns.

There are no forced movements.

There is very little in terms of effective buffs or debuffs overall aside from your ship healing itself, your ship boosting some of its paramters, and damage.

There are no DoT effects.

There are very little secondary effects to anything.

Eve is a unique thing and incredibly awesome, and personally I think it is unmatched as far as strategic gameplay is concerned. What Eve seriously lacks is tactical gameplay and that is where it alienates your PvP people. There is no option other than blob and damage because there almost quite literally is no other option other than blob and damage and see which spreadsheet wins, and macro fleet movement.

It's like they expect people to be entertained by Starcraft, except instead of the Starcraft experience of one person setting up a base, producing things, then going to fight with their army of units....

You get stuck piloting one wraith. Or one battlecruiser. A traditional MOBA hero unit with 4 abilities has more intricacy than piloting almost any Eve ship from a tactical standpoint.

Sure you get to screw around with what exactly your wraith or bc can do alot more, but that's essentially where you as a player stop mattering at all.

I'm not saying Eve needs joystick controls and manually piloted dogfights as I'm sure someone will try to say. But at the very least they could expand on the tactical side of things. I don't even care if the strategic side remains exactly the same, but if they would just ****ing put in *some* kind of tactical gameplay you would satisfy what so many people who come to Eve looking for want. It only helps Eve to do this.

Why CCP hasn't is honestly completely beyond me. There isn't even any real shiny graphics you would need to do. Tactical gameplay is all about decisions, and for all Eve and its community talks about decisions mattering there is an obvious **** you to anyone who has ever cared for the tactical side of the game as shown by the quick shoving of anything related to balance and tactical considerations showing up in general discussion over to F&I to be ignored no matter how obvious it is to anyone with half a brain some things are.

A chat function being a tactical decision in your game? ******ed.
The over simplification of any maneuvering and weapon decisions claiming server load when you won't even put in long cooldown, unique effects or anything remotely tactical to make even a simple decision as "Should I go over here or over there?" matter aside from where the red + is?
Absolutely, 100% ******ed.

I love Eve. I really do. I only want it to succeed. But crap like this boils up my nerdrage and inner hatred for how CCP has acted towards the tactical gameplay enthusiasts, all the while spouting this idea of a complete scifi simulator where anything is possible and your decisions matter, when they can't even put simple low server load, easy to balance decisions in?

****. That. ****.

Edited intro in.


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