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Geoff W
Caldari
Fallen Angel's
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.06.13 00:55:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Geoff W on 13/06/2011 00:58:15
Edited by: Geoff W on 13/06/2011 00:57:09
Ever since i first heard about Dust i have been wondering about the effects and ease of orbital bombardment against troops planetside. i have some questions for someone in the know to answer

1. what ships will be able to strike from orbit ( a dreadnought is 3-4 km long and can be destroyed in one shot by a titan so immagine what that could do to a planet and anyone within several hundred km of ground zero / even the battleships at 500m+ would be devestating 1400mm artilery using nuclear warheads would deveatate a large area in a single volley and nuclear are supposed to be primative so railgun slugs at relativistic speeds would be even more devestating. )

2. will carriers and supercarriers be able to send down fighters / fighter bombers to assist ( again the massive yield of the warheads used in relation to planet based installations would be huge )

3. what will starships have to do to get into bombardment position ( will they have to drive off defending fleets or will they be able to hit and run even while enemy have space superiority )

4. if the battle planetside turns against your side will you be able to call down an exterminatus style strike to ensure that if you cant have the base then no-one will especially if you maintain a major presence in orbit

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.13 01:33:00 - [2]
 

maybe you can orbital strike with any ship, but the size of the gun determines area of effect and damage. so like a frigate spitting at the planet would be like a mortar strike, and a dread would just be carpet bomb.

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2011.06.13 01:47:00 - [3]
 

Just because ccp put it in a vid doesnt mean it's gonna happen.
Any weapon shot from 36,000+KM (orbital range for earth-ish) will probably miss the target, it's likely that the weapons will take considerable damage passing through the atmos. On top of that if this "Feature" makes it into the game it will likely only be on the dirt side, where the game will have it's own set of balances.



Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.13 01:58:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: DeODokktor
Just because ccp put it in a vid doesnt mean it's gonna happen.

Just because CCP has it up and working on development servers doesn't mean it's gonna happen. lol

Originally by: DeODokktor
Any weapon shot from 36,000+KM (orbital range for earth-ish) will probably miss the target, it's likely that the weapons will take considerable damage passing through the atmos. On top of that if this "Feature" makes it into the game it will likely only be on the dirt side, where the game will have it's own set of balances.

Low-earth orbit is like 100km, not 36,000km which is geosynchronous orbit... lol again

And we do have the equivalent of 1400mm shells hitting the earth all the time, they're called meteorites... And those will be slow, non-aerodynamic and lacking of warheads unlike what our spaceships shoot.

Inzax
Caldari
In ZAX
New Eden Conglomerate
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:00:00 - [5]
 

New ammo category with skill set?

Discrodia
Gallente
Symbiosis International
Moose Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:03:00 - [6]
 

I'd imagine it would be pretty focused, and not the sort of MAD-esque thing that would happen if one fired a titan superweapon at a planet. Your objective is to capture stuff, not obliterate it! =P

IIRC in the Emp. Age book a dreadnought blaster was enough to instantly destroy fortified structures and a decent area around it. The way I think of it, a frigate would be used more like an ultraheavy fighter for strafing runs, while cruisers could do pinpoint target elimination against tanks and bunkers (a-la smartbombs), and battleships could unleash saturation bombardment of large areas. Dreds would be for eliminating fortresses and the like.

Come to think of it, maybe the scale of the Dust battle could limit the size of fire support? Like, a skirmish might only rate cruiser support, while larger assaults would warrant and allow larger ships.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Low-earth orbit is like 100km, not 36,000km which is geosynchronous orbit... lol again


Of course, all of this assumes standard real world physics, not fishtank plot-driven physics :)

DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:13:00 - [8]
 

Lets see a titan go below geosync and get out (without jumping that is).
Dreads would be limited too.

There's just not going to be enough speed involved for these large mass ships to get into low or medium orbits.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:15:00 - [9]
 

They got Antimatter so they must have antigravity too (given those flying car thingies in Amarr stations) Very Happy

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.06.13 03:20:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: DeODokktor
Lets see a titan go below geosync and get out (without jumping that is).
Dreads would be limited too.

There's just not going to be enough speed involved for these large mass ships to get into low or medium orbits.


Getting out of orbit would be easy. Just make sure you have a warpable on the other side of the planet.Very Happy

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.13 05:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: DeODokktor
Lets see a titan go below geosync and get out (without jumping that is).
Dreads would be limited too.

There's just not going to be enough speed involved for these large mass ships to get into low or medium orbits.

If there was ever a time for a triple facepalm-Picard this is it...

You guys are playing a game about spaceships and are _THIS_ fail at orbital mechanics?

Charles Javeroux
Gallente
INTERSTELLAR CREDIT
Posted - 2011.06.13 07:08:00 - [12]
 

In my speculation, the orbit fleet would depend on the ground troops to establish a lock for orbital bombardment (ie. you would need allies on ground to tag the targets).
The same things goes for ground forces to be able to target orbiting objects (you would need eyes in orbit, to tag the targets).

So all this bombarding stuff from orbit-ground-orbit, would depend heavily on close co-operation between DUST mercs and capsuleers.

Also this is the vision, got from the CCP after-hours feedback.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.06.13 07:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
If there was ever a time for a triple facepalm-Picard this is it...

You guys are playing a game about spaceships and are _THIS_ fail at orbital mechanics?
Ok.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Adjunta Tungsten
Posted - 2011.06.13 08:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Adjunta Tungsten on 13/06/2011 08:08:11
After what i've heard from his lordship our emperor, the CEO..

It seems that bombardments will be possible in both directions.. I just hope theres a limitation? I wouldn't like someone with nothing to do with the dust battle taking pot-shots for the lulz or vise versa.

Maybe there will be a Corp/party limit?

Ford Mersombre
Posted - 2011.06.13 08:08:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Adjunta Tungsten
After what i've heard from his lordship our emperor, the CEO..

It seems that in the future theres a desire for both games to be interlinked enough that a Soldier from Dust can come up to the station and talk to people on EVE walking around, and EVE able to shoot at Dust and Dust able to shoot at EVE.

I just hope theres a limitation on interaction during battles as I think it'd be spoiling the fun if someone with nothing better to do decides to start taking pot-shots at a Dust map or vise versa.

I'm all for EVE players making ammunition, weapons, vehicles and so forth for Dust though. I just hope it isnt the only way that it'll be available to people playing.


DUST and EVE players being able to interact on stations would be pretty cool. :D

CRA5HD0WN
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.13 08:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Ok.
fkcing win LOL

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.06.13 08:42:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: DeODokktor
Just because ccp put it in a vid doesnt mean it's gonna happen.



CCP already said not only will it happen, but it's already running on the test/alpha build.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.13 09:57:00 - [18]
 

Also regarding balance of orbital bombardment, for those of you that aren't fail at orbital mechanics will realize that the ships will be in low-earth orbit rather than geosynchronous and as such will not be stationary above the target. For an earth-sized planet we're talking about once every 90 minutes or so.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.13 10:01:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Mithfindel on 13/06/2011 10:14:15
I believe it was pointed out that things that have appeared on SiSi and in devblogs have still been pulled. (Hello, storefronts!) A lot also depends on the balance. (10MN afterburning assault frigates!)

However, I'd assume that Dreadnoughts or possibly other ships would be the EVE version of "indirect fire support". (The turrets and tanks are the heavy direct-fire support.) The best EVE weapons for bombardment, with real world physics, would likely be rocket-propelled artillery - where the fuel would be saved for the end flight - or winged sabot. Because the potential energy is enough to take the round down. Accuracy would be a problem, as would be the round burning up in atmosphere. I understand that the best possible rounds would be something along the lines of drop-shaped tungsten rounds. (Melting at 3683 K.) Artillery simply because it has the largest caliber, and therefore, the round will survive melting partially and still hit the ground, causing some huge craters. Unlike, say, antimatter rounds which would likely disintegrate in upper atmosphere and cause funny stuff to the entire hemisphere. (Solid railgun rounds would likely airburst.)

Naturally, it is important to remember that EVE is a game, so physics, most likely has no real effect, and Minmatar dreads firing nuclear bombs or even H-bombs (fusion ammo) on the field will look like a normal artillery strike instead of instantly glassing everything.

For the following calculation, I used Impact Earth: http://www.purdue.edu/impactearth/

Weapon: 1000mm Dual Railgun, Tungsten ammunition
Diameter: 1 m
Density: 19250 kg/m3 (solid tungsten)
Impact Angle: 90 degrees (straight down)
Entry Velocity: 72 km/s (maximum for the simulation, likely too high, but proportional to the "artillery shell" calculations below, impact velocity on ground 38.6 km/s)

Hitting the ground, the round would release energy around 6.2 kilotons of TNT equivalent and make a crater around 175 m wide, cause a fireball just under 40 m wide.

A Moros can fire six rounds each volley.

For a Naglfar with a 3500mm firing Depleted Uranium:
Diameter: 3.5 m
Density: 19100 kg/m3 (uranium)
Impact Angle: 90 degrees (straight down)
Entry Velocity: 11 km/s (minimum for simulation - but still above what our guns can achieve, impact velocity on ground 9.2 km/s)

Hitting the ground, the round would release energy around 6.2 kilotons of TNT equivalent and make a crater around 250 m wide, no fireball due to low impact speed. One kilometer away, still a 3.0 Richter scale earthquake, air blast arrives in three seconds, breaks glass windows, 30 percent trees blown down.

A Naglfar can fire eight rounds at once.

Critique on the simulations above: The calculator is for asteroids. The drag coefficient for a round object is 0.47, whereas a streamlined round would have a drag coefficient of only 0.04, reaching much higher terminal speeds. However, as the entry speeds were absolutely too high for railguns and artillery, this would be compensated. How well the errors cancel each other is rather hard to guess.

I remember another impact calculator that gave different results. This one, however, indicates that even 75mm railgun rounds might survive intact, striking about as hard as a two-ton TNT-based bomb, craters 1.6 meters across. Which means that if antimatter (or for Minmatar, nuclear/fusion) rounds would survive to the surface that'd be rather large booms. So a Thrasher should have enough firepower to burn some continents. I assume that firing those seven autocannons isn't really accurate on over 100 km distances, but so what - like we were let know, orbital strikes are very accurate and they always hit the ground. In Thrasher's case, that'd be over a hundred nuclear/H-bomb warheads per minute with 200mm autocannon IIs, if you'd want a target dead, I assume a few would hit close enough.

andeira
Posted - 2011.06.13 10:45:00 - [20]
 

how about we just wait a year and see when the game comes out?

Capri Sern
Minmatar
The Stand Alone Complex
Posted - 2011.06.13 10:57:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: andeira
how about we just wait a year and see when the game comes out?


What's the point of a forum if you can't speculate wildly and draw conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence? Very Happy


 

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