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Elunis Bethesda
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:14:00 - [1]
 

Well, title says it all really. Feeling a bit frustrated that 2 weeks into Eve and after enduring 1 hour mining a bunch of juicy Kernite, some chode just snags all my ore. Now I have to think about using secure containers and going backwards and forwards wasting extra time hauling (?).

This is my mining setup at the moment (0.6 sec):

Take Vexor out with 4 mining lasers + 1 salvager and mine into jetcan (named and bookmarked) about 13.5k m3 of Kernite/Pyroxeres. Head back to station, switch into my Iteron with 4.5k m3 space, warp to jetcan = 3 runs back and forth to transfer it all.

This has been working fine for the last week and I guess the can-flip was bound to happen sooner or later. Now it's happened though I'm just questioning if and how I should be doing things differently. Should I go the secure container route, anchor 1 or 2 containers?

On a side note I'm about 4 days off getting my first mining barge (Retriever).

Any advice/tips for a newb would be greatly appreciated.


Command 00
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:16:00 - [2]
 

Cool Story Bro

Sepyuff
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:27:00 - [3]
 

@Elunis Bethesda

If you are mining because you want to make isk, may I suggest you stop mining?

Use your Vexsor and do missions instead. Sure the level 1 missions don't pay out as much as mining but once you get high enough to do level 4 missions, you'll be much better off.

You only need a standing of 5 now to get level 4 missions. A week, or so of doing missions will net you that easily.

Just a thought.

DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:31:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: DeMichael Crimson on 10/06/2011 21:44:52

Do what you like to do in this game, if you want to mine, then do mining.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mining_guide
This also has a link in it to Advanced Mining.

Jet-can mining is never a good idea and now you know the reason why. Maybe if you had another player hauling the Ore for you, the jet-can could stay close to empty and that would have minimized the loss. About the only time I'd do jet-can mining solo is if in a mission area.

Giant Secure Containers are exactly just what the description says they are. They can only be anchored in 0.7 and lower security systems but you can anchor as many as you want. They have a life timer of 30 days which is reset whenever the can is accessed. They can't be anchored in Deadspace/Mission areas.

Even after training up for Mining Barges, having the Giant Secure Containers won't be a waste. They only take up 3000 m3 cargohold each but hold 3,900 m3 of cargo.

I have an Industrial ship (Hoarder) that holds 5 GSC's which I anchor at various spots in Asteroid Belt. I fill the cans up with Ore and then come back in Hoarder ship that has another 5 GSC's in the cargohold, transfer the Ore and go back to station, switch back into Mining ship and fill the cans up again.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.10 21:37:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: DeMichael Crimson
Well, jet can mining is never a good idea and now you know the reason why.

Giant Secure Containers are exactly just what the description says they are. They can only be anchored in 0.7 and lower security systems but you can anchor as many as you want. They have a life timer of 30 days which is reset whenever the can is accessed.


Yes, jetcan mining is a potential trap. Either just dock and unload or get the aforementioned Giant Secure ones (which aren't exactly giant but definitely secure).

Tough luck!

Natalya Mayaki
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:02:00 - [6]
 

To mine more safely in empire - run level 1 missions - until you get one with ore in it, do not complete the mission objective - just kill the rats in the room if possible - mine out the ore. Rinse repeat for up to 7 days. The only painful part is usually flying your hauler in from the accel gate.

Only other things you can do is find a quiet system to mine in (less traffic = less chance of a can flipper running around).

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:14:00 - [7]
 

I stick to systems where the number of people in local is less than the number of asteroid belts.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:19:00 - [8]
 

In my many years of guarding the bridge that is the Eve forums I've never seen anyone refer to anyone else as a chode Laughing

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:21:00 - [9]
 

Make friends with a player-run mining/industrial corporation. You'll find someone in your timezone regularly running operations supported by an orca and hauler, for sure.

Of course if you're only mining to make ISK, check out the Making ISK guide.

NARDAC
Posted - 2011.06.10 22:24:00 - [10]
 

Join a corp that does high sec mining ops. Orca boosts + orca to haul your ore for you = win-win!

If only there were such a corp.... hmmmm Where would you Find them....

This isn't the recruiting board, so I can't say that the Jolly Codgers is a new player training corp that runs all kinds of high sec ops, including mining, while training people to live and profit in neg sec space (Frormerly known as 0.0 or mull sec).


Elunis Bethesda
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.10 23:25:00 - [11]
 

Thanks for all your responses guys (and Tay in-game =)), it's really cleared things up and set me on the right track. I was going a bit mad anyway solo mining. Here's my new plan based on your advice:

1) Switch to running missions in my Vexor (maybe a little mining in mission areas) until my mining barge skill is ready.
2) Find a good mixed discipline Corp that does mining groups and can offer some direction on what else to do.
3) Move all my stuff to Corp location.
4) Use GSC's if I'm mining on my own but mainly try to stick to mining in a group.
5) Friends and Profit (!) Very Happy


Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.06.11 00:02:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 11/06/2011 00:05:18

I can highly recommend training racial cruiser 5 and medium T2 weapons, after spending some time in (and losing a lot of) frigates and battlecruisers.

This puts you on the path to a lot of ships:

* cruisers
* heavy assault ships
* heavy interdictors
* logistics ships
* recons
* strategic cruisers
* battlecruisers
* command ships

I currently do level 4 missions in a strategic cruiser. Mission reward is about 2 million (plus loyalty points), and bounties are about 10 million. Varies depending on the mission of course.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.06.11 00:15:00 - [13]
 


Sofa Raddis
Posted - 2011.06.11 00:43:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Sofa Raddis on 11/06/2011 00:44:26
My can got flipped on my 6th day of play.

After a convo the flipper gave me 1m isk and took me along and showed me how to probe down missioners and ninja loot their wrecks.
Which isn't exactly my style, but still helpful and a "cool story".

Guess your can flipper wasn't as sociable Sad

EDIT: point? mining is horrible and boring.

Xirin
Posted - 2011.06.11 00:52:00 - [15]
 

1) Don't mine in Caldari space. EVER.

2) Don't mine in systems with more then about 15 to 20 people in them (see above if you can't find any with fewer people in them)

3) Get an alt to haul for you if you get really tired of it.

Leetha Layne
Posted - 2011.06.11 05:26:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

How to use Giant Secure Containers & Jet Cans

.


Giant secure containers

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.06.11 05:29:00 - [17]
 

It takes a lot of time to setup secure containers, time that you could have spent mining.

Whether or not it's worth it depends on your risk assesment. Is the time wasted setting up containers worth more than what you risk losing from jetcanning?

You will need to make that decision yourself, lots of factors add into it. For new players with low mining efficiency the secure cans is often worthwhile, but ends up becoming too time consuming later on.

There are a few other options:
- Fill your hold, then dock up and drop the ore.
- Make a safe spot close to the asteroid field and jetcan there.
- Get friends that can help you haul.
- Mine somewhere quiet where canflipping is less common, mining in missions can be worth considering as well.


In the end risk is always a part of Eve and you need to consider whether the risk is worth it. When s... does happen - and it always does, simply consider it part of your normal expenses.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.06.11 23:23:00 - [18]
 

OP:

The problem is, with all that running back and forth to grab a hauler and empty the secure containers, your ISK gained from mining per hour will be truly pathetic. Mining only works with alt accounts or friends.

Even then, you can make more money by doing combat missions. The question you never answer - are you mining because you like it, or because you want ISK?

If you like it, carry on and consider the logistics a challenge to overcome.
If you want ISK, please do something else.

Sadly, a lot of new players train mining as its easy money, then quit when they realise they'll never get rich and will need to retrain to do anything else.

If you never spend more than a few days training mining skills, you can still fit out a mining battleship and reach a Retriever-like level of efficiency. So you can still mine, without wasting time skilling for the mining specific barges.

Elunis Bethesda
The Scope
Posted - 2011.06.12 11:50:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
OP:

The problem is, with all that running back and forth to grab a hauler and empty the secure containers, your ISK gained from mining per hour will be truly pathetic. Mining only works with alt accounts or friends.

If you like it, carry on and consider the logistics a challenge to overcome.
If you want ISK, please do something else.




Well, I'm getting into manufacturing and trading and whilst I don't particularly enjoy mining, if I'm extracting ore at a decent rate I'm quite happy doing it for a few hours every few days, or even better in a fleet. I like the idea of bringing in my own ore to make my products with, and I can multi-task whilst I'm mining ie. checking the markets, making plans on what to produce.

I chose to go down the mining barge route instead of a mining battleship. Missions don't really interest me (at the moment) so this seemed to be the right way to go. Mining seems like the only viable alternative to make some sure-fire isk outside of missions, whilst my skills are low (800k). I think the only way I'd get into missions is if I could do a lot of salvaging which I enjoy. A manufacturing/trading/PI setup is my goal.

Sofa Raddis
Posted - 2011.06.12 13:05:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Sofa Raddis on 12/06/2011 13:10:57

I didn't really like missions at start either (still don't), but they provide other rewards as well, for example standings which you need for jump clones if you haven't gotten that covered already.

The LP rewards are good as well, and although missions can be boring and repetative, I daresay it's not as dire as mining.

Minerals can be made by reprocessing cheap loot, mining isn't really needed.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.12 18:55:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Elunis Bethesda
Well, I'm getting into manufacturing and trading and whilst I don't particularly enjoy mining, if I'm extracting ore at a decent rate I'm quite happy doing it for a few hours every few days, or even better in a fleet. I like the idea of bringing in my own ore to make my products with, and I can multi-task whilst I'm mining ie. checking the markets, making plans on what to produce.


Don't fall into this trap. Don't be a "MIMAFer" (Minerals I Mine Are Free.) If you're truly doing it because you enjoy it, that's all fine and dandy. But don't do it just because you think it'll make you more isk.

Manufacturing and mining are two separate careers!

Just because you do one, doesn't mean you'll profit more at the other.

If mining nets you 12million isk per hour, and manufacturing nets you 20million isk pr hour, and you do 5 hours of each, you will net 5*12 + 5*20 = 160million isk.

Where as had you done 10 hours of manufacturing, you would have net 10*20, or 200million isk.

(Of course there are logistical thresholds to consider, but that's true for any career, and that's for another post.)

I have a spreadsheet that I populate with the local cost of minerals for each region, and it will tell me how much it costs to manufacture a specific item.

Image 1 Image 2

Using my spreadsheet I can easily tell how much it costs me (less manufacturing usage fees) and thus how much profit I can make based on local minerals. If I ever need to make something for profit, I fire up my trusty spreadsheet, and go to town. There are free online services which will do this, too.

Ispai Ponue
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.12 19:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher

Even then, you can make more money by doing combat missions.


Further, you can get yourself a Noctis and mine the combat field after turning in the mission (assuming you bookmarked a wreck). You can build these up for an hour and go back. Grab EVERYTHING, take it back to station and reprocess. I do most of my manufacturing this way.

Check the prices on items before reprocessing though. You don't want to reprocess that 5mil target painter for example. Meta 4 items are generally good money makers. Anything less, it's more pain to sell the items than it is to reprocess and you'll often make more selling the ore anyway....or building something with it.

If you really want ORE you can hunt down drones. Drone poop makes a lot of minerals, but you'll not get anything else from them, including bounty.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.06.12 20:41:00 - [23]
 

Just to clarify something about "MIMAF" ...


When people use that phrase - what they really mean is - you should understand the mineral value of things before you go to the trouble to manufacture them.

The basic question is - "Could I just sell the minerals themselves for more than the thing I'm making out of them?"

Thus - spreadsheets.


The problem I have with people saying MIMAF - is that they are just making up some stupid little saying that doesn't illustrate why they are saying it.

You see, for the most part - the rocks ARE Free. No amount of making fun of people by mouthing MIMAF! is going to change that. So it would be better if the people trying to keep new people from selling items they manufacture for less than their mineral value - would come up with a better phrase.

Just to clarify that - the rocks would not be free - if you were in some system where the corporation claiming control of that system was charging you for the rocks you mined. THEN they would not be free.

There are any number of opportunity costs and expenses related to mining - but - as long as you do not have the additional cost of paying someone for the privilege of mining their rocks - then the rocks themselves are free.

The important thing is NOT how you got the rocks - but their value once you have them.

Thus - before you manufacture something - think about why you want to manufacture it.

One reason - might be simply for the experience of making something, that is - learning how to do it. Ammunition that you would use yourself is a common beginners product. It doesn't matter here if you could just buy it for less from someone else - that isn't why you're making it. You're making it to learn how to do it. Take your little blue print - and study it as you make something. You don't have to make a lot. But look at all the little costs that are associated with the process. Then write them down and date them. You can use the notepad in your accessories and/or save the file in Windows.

Then - do something like researching the Time Efficiency of the Blue Print and see what that changes - and see how much it changes. Write that down. Material Efficiency is more important - but the wait times for that are pretty high.

Then - do some missions - and see how that changes things. And write that down.


Now - don't think you're keeping notes for the future - you just doing this so you have a ready reference to see how much the things you did changed things. This is a learning technique - not a manufacturing technique.



Now for the bad news.

Trading is more important than anything else (for making money as an Industrialist). Yes - that's right - all the manly men out there sweating over hot lasers and having their hearing ruined by the engines of production - are at the mercy of little nerds with an abacus sitting on the shelf behind their desk.

Take the little bits of ammunition you make - and go play around with the market. See what you can sell them for. See what you can buy them for. Post a sell order. Post a buy order. Play around with the market and see how it works.

Understand the market - and understand that it changes.

Then - when you've got the market figured out some in your area (check out things at your trade hub but be aware that the trade hub isn't always the best place to buy/sell stuff), pick something you think you can make money on for the forseeable future - and then buy and research a blue print for THAT.

Don't just decide "Oh - I want to make Ray Guns", buy an Uber Duber Ray Gun Blue Print and start cranking them out - and THEN - try to sell them.

Do your market research FIRST - then go make something.



Now ... two more things about people saying MIMAF ...

1) They are sincerely trying to help you make money.

2) They are also trying to intimidate you so that you will quit making cheap stuff and leave more market share for them ... "Oh MY God!!! Spread Sheets!!! Arrggg!! I hate math!"

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:47:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
sniped for mercy


You see, you've waffled for a bazillion words and missed the point, once again.

The "minerals I mine are free" troll/comment comes from players coming to the conclusion that, say, making a Megathron from a blueprint is cheaper, because they can mine the minerals at no cost. They forget they could have made ten times the ISK in the same timeframe doing something else, and ergo the effective cost is lower.

It has zero to do with reprocessing modules, or rocks being free. Everything in eve is 'free' , aside from rented space.

I know you think throwing 1000 words at every answer makes it more 'solid' - but take it from me, it doesn't. Since most people are going to tl;dr the entire thing.

Quote:
Now ... two more things about people saying MIMAF ... 1) They are sincerely trying to help you make money. 2) They are also trying to intimidate you so that you will quit making cheap stuff and leave more market share for them ... "Oh MY God!!! Spread Sheets!!! Arrggg!! I hate math!"


No they are pointing out the stupidity of thinking "the minerals I mine are free."

Literally.

Xenuria
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:51:00 - [25]
 

If it takes you more then 10 mins to fill a jetcan with ore then your not mining properly.

Get a Hulk
Train up your skills

Minning dose not become cost effective until you can fill a jetcan in under 12 mins. I recommend going to PF-346 as nobody ever uses that system anymore because they are all to afraid of TonyC. This makes it an ideal place to mine space rocks. I mine there myself sometimes.

Steely McNoob
Posted - 2011.06.12 22:29:00 - [26]
 

Well, technically, it wasn't a waste to the "chode" who took the can... ;)

Sorry that happened, though. Welcome to EVE. Glad you're back on your feet.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.06.12 23:58:00 - [27]
 

Ah ... Lady Go ...

There are several issues here.

One is mineral value, as I mentioned above.

Another is opportunity cost which is mostly what you are talking about.

As an industrialist - the question is - where are you going to get your minerals? Are you going to mine them yourself, reprocess loot or are you going to buy them off the market?

The method that's most efficient depends on the individual and what their situation is.

IF you are already a thriving industrialist or have a lucrative income source else where - then you may well be making enough money - that it would be a mistake to mine your own minerals because of the opportunity cost associated with the time spent doing that.

If you are NOT already a thriving industrialist and don't have another source of income - then you have to look at how you are going to afford to buy those minerals and if it wouldn't just be cheaper to mine them yourself.

Say, for example - that you are making your money by mining. Would it make sense - to mine minerals - and sell them - only so you could use the money to buy other minerals? Well ... sometimes yes. It depends on what you're mining and which minerals you need. You have a lot of the rarer ores/minerals where, if you're a hi sec miner - you pretty much have to buy them.

The thing is - it's not a simple answer - and a lot of people who've been playing a long time tend to forget that.




Now - there are other issues involved that do not have to do with making money - and THAT is what the bulk of my post dealt with.

Learning how to do something entails a sometimes significant Opportunity Cost. You are forgoing the money you could be making - to spend the extra time it is going to take you to figure out how to do something. That initial investment in your education though - can pay off well. It might pay off by teaching you that the thing you were planning on doing - was a bad idea - for you. But it also might pay off in teaching you how things actually worked - as in the EVE Industrial Process.

One advantage of trying to do everything yourself - is that you learn what is involved in all the steps along the way. YES - this will cost you. You WILL pay for your education in the money you don't make while getting that education - but - as above - you may benefit from the knowledge you gain down the road.

Just because you start out doing everything yourself - doesn't mean you have to keep doing that. Once you've figured out how things work and what your own personal talents are - then you may well be better able to shift your efforts to things you not only enjoy more - but which will be more profitable.

What most people do - is to start doing something new ... and just blunder around for a while learning things. That's why veterans - at whatever occupation - have a real advantage over new comers - it's not just the skill points they have - it's their knowledge of the game and how things work.

Knowledge is expensive. There is no two ways about that - but if you don't go out and try things - then how are you going to know? Sure - you can read the forums but reading ten different peoples opinions when you don't even know enough to tell who is full of **** and who isn't - is no substitute for trying it yourself and seeing how it really works.



Lastly, there are three things you or I, as a person, need to accomplish anything; Time, Money and Energy. The more you have of one - the less you need of the others - the less you have of one - the more the others have to make up for it. Each persons situation is unique - so that what works for one doesn't always work for another. So - saying that what another person is doing is stupid - well ... it might be stupid for you ... but it may not be stupid for them.

What they want to accomplish, how much time they are willing to spend on it, how much money they have and the amount of energy they can devote to it - is all dependent on their situation.


*shrug*

.

Vol Arm'OOO
Posted - 2011.06.13 02:52:00 - [28]
 

Just my 2 isk --
First there is nothing wrong with mining even if missioning can make you more isk. Mining is an activity that you can do with very little effort. In fact, its a great semi-afk activity. In eve there is a lot of down time -- your camping a station or a gate for hours, your banging against a pos or watching one, etc. . . Having a second mining account is a great way to make a little isk while you do things on your main -- with mining it is really fairly easy to divide your time between your main and the mining alt b/c its not generally demanding.

As for your original issue -- in general in empire as a miner you face two main catagories of threats -- can flipping and suicide runs. Can flippers can be pesty -- but if you ignore them all they get is a little ore. On the other hand, when a suicider hits you, if the suicider is successful you lose your hulk -- which is approximately a 200mil isk ship. Most miners maximizer their cargo hauling capabilities so that they dont have to use cans to avoid flippers. But by doing this they maximze their vulnerabiltiy to suiciders. Now if you go off the beaten path you will find that your cahance of runing into either a suicider or a can flipper is realatively small. But if you use cans and tank you mining ship (eventually a hulk) you will find that what you lose to can flipers is more tehn made up by your improved surviability against suiciders. Now some will say that you cant make a hulk suicide proof -- sure thats true but -- given that most suicide runs are in main hubs against untanked ships -- you will take the chance suicider by suprise if you tank your hulk. So all in all I would argue that if you are going to do this solo - which is what i do -- then use cans and just ignore the occasional flipper, while tanking yourself to protect your ship against the more severe threat.

Moody Fugher
Posted - 2011.06.13 04:04:00 - [29]
 

Well, this is what I do....

1. Head to Muvo' next to Jita
2. D-Scan Belts for noob containers + noobs
3. Think "am I just being a wang?" <---- always yes!! :D
4. Steal your ore
5. Troll you into stealing the ore back
6. Asplode your shipz and fittinz.. all your all ore now belong to us!!

Mwhuahaha

Another scenarion

1. Go to lowsec
2. Spend 8hrs trying to find 1 person who will engage
3. Log off


Which 1 sounds more funner?

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.06.13 10:00:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
ARGHGHGHGHGH


I wanted to quote it and "tl;dr" - but it's too long to quote.


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