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GTN
The Reformed
Bondage Patrol
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:12:00 - [271]
 

Edited by: GTN on 21/07/2011 18:12:10
More HP and resists for Hel and Ragnarok... just check QEN to see how many ppl fly those ships -.-
Or at least make them go way faster.
Boost fighter bombers damage, as it is now, 1 alone supercarrier can't kill a triage carrier.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.07.22 10:00:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Scandal Caulker
Originally by: Lucas Quaan

[About a R-ECCM Bonus] The problem here is, as already noted, that you again become dependent on a logistics chain and unlike the redundant dual cap chain it cascades if you break a single link.


I don't see why this would be a problem. The Oneiros/Scimitar would be logi-chaining in a different way to the Guardian/Basilisk. You could even chain Oneiros' and Guardians together in a large fleet where one provides ECCM cover and the other helps with Cap stability.

Also, it is simply a choice to logi chain with a R-ECCM bonus. You can still fit a local ECCM and a R-ECCM with the high number of mid slots you have.

If you REALLY don't want the Oneiros to have a remote utility bonus then why not a Capacitor Booster boost amount bonus so it can get more out of a cap boosting setup.

I don't have anything against it per se, I just don't think it's very good in practice. With an ECCM chain, you become easier to break the more jams you get, unlike local ECCM, where every ship is equally hard to break no matter how many previous jams you have.

On paper this looks similar to cap chains for Basilisk/Guardian, but they can run dual chains, increasing their resistance. You can't really afford to run dual ECCM here, sacrificing cap on the Oneiros or tank on the Scimitar.

The other thing is that any chain is weaker for lower numbers. I like to think of the Oneiros/Scimitar as the "skirmish" logis, working independently solo or in small groups for medium sized gangs (~25 pilots). In that scenario, I prefer something that is not dependant on setting up chains. Personally I still think a local tank bonus is the most interesting option.

This is of course a view on their intended role and people can have different opinions on that. Matching bonuses with roles is what creates diversity and motivates training of a particular ship. We will therefore have to agree on a role before moving on to arguing utility bonuses.

Jon Marburg
The Executioners
Capital.Punishment
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:12:00 - [273]
 

Definitely in favorite of these incremental balancing adjustments and hope to see more similar tweaks in the future. I love that CCP is actually asking for help and advice and it is a positive trend that should continue!

Logistics-
It really is about time the warp speed change happened for them, but that is a minor issue in the scope of all things logistics. First off the tracking link bonus for the Oneiros and Scimitar doesn't mesh well with their current role in small gang logistics. In their current form it is next to impossible to fit a link without giving up something critical to their primary role of remote repair. A viable alternative to fix this would be to adjust the remote repair capacitor use on these two ships to roughly -17.5% per level from -15%. Doing this would allow these logistics to remove a mid slot cap mod in favor of the link.

In regards to the Oneiros in particular it doesn't need an adjustment to power grid as much as one to its capacitor. Most Oneiros fits I've seen are those with MWD and/or cap boosters causing unnecessary use of power grid and I feel diverges from the correct logistic ship model. Well piloted logistic ships should be able to sustain their repairs without the need for consumables and rely on sig radius and resists for their tank as demonstrated by every other logistic ship. However, if you attempt to fit an Oneiros in a similar fashion you quickly run into capacitor uses and requires a full set of all the relevant implants to come anywhere close to stability. A good solution to this problem would be to move a mid slot to a low, allowing a capacitor power relay to be fit providing a 4% increase in recharge. And when you think about it on just a superficial level, it makes sense that an armor tanked ship would have more low slots than mids anyways.

When compared with the Scimitar and Guardian, it makes sense that the Oneiros would have less effective hitpoints in favor of a speed tank like that of the Scimitar in order to provide support for small quick gangs on roams or camps rather than the resist and buffer of a fleet logistics like the Guardian. However when compared with both ships it has roughly the ehp of the Scimitar but only marginally faster than the Guardian. In order for the Oneiros to fit its role it needs to have the capability to avoid damage to make up for its lack of ehp. To achieve this goal, the Oneiros should probably receive a minor increase in base speed of 12-17 m/s before skills so that its speed and resulting damage avoidance is more in line with its role as a small gang logistic ship.

Dramiel-
It really is about time that the Dramiel was brought back into line with the other pirate faction frigates. The speed change sounds appropriate so far although I would also remove the drone bay and shift that damage back into the guns. This would tone down its effective dps on frigate hulls due to falloff and transversal while still applying decent damage on slower, larger ships and still allowing it to defend itself from enemy drones. This change would also increase the skillpoints necessary to get the most out of the ship, making it less of the go-to tackle and frig combat platform.

Mercille Yathian
Posted - 2011.07.24 06:27:00 - [274]
 

Sounds like a minma^H^H^H^H^Hcloak addicted devs trying to remove the only viable decloaking ship in game.
Return to the cloaking online doesn't exactly sound like a fascinating idea.

As in before the changes Dramiel was the only ship capable of decloaking any ship jumping in from a non-regional gate. After such changes, to counter a SINGLE cloaking ship you would need multiple decloaking ships (in addition to bubble/web/dps ships). So if you intend to reduce Dramiel's utility for decloaking role, introducing another ship for decloaking role would be the right thing to do. And to keep things balanced, such a ship should be vulnerable to bombs from stealth bombers, especially with mwd on.

Also nerfing scan resolution mainly affects the time carebears have to warp off after a dramiel lands next to them. In other scenarios base scanres does not mean that much, since with RSBs you can get 10k scanres anyway if that is what you want.

P.S. For those not so fond of manual piloting, having a command for "bump" or "ram" instead of "approach" and "keep at range" would be nice.

Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.07.24 14:08:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: Zarnak Wulf on 24/07/2011 14:08:41
DPS. Tanking. Speed. Pick 2 of the three for the Dramiel. It currently has all three. I would not mind if the Dramiel maintained it's DPS and dual prop status - IF it lost the ability to fit a MSE. I similarly would not mind if the Dramiel kept it's DPS and hit points - IF it lost it's GTGO ability. In short - it can't continue to 'have it all'

Tom Gerard
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.07.25 13:57:00 - [276]
 

Dramiel nerf is insufficient if it still retains infinite tracking at 20km.

Ruhige Schmerz
New Eden Scientific Association
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:11:00 - [277]
 

Leave the annoying dramiel speed alone. It's not too fast, the speed is fine.

Just do as others have already suggested and tone down its drones some. Reduce drone bandwidth to 10, problem solved.

I don't really care that it can run away at will, just that it doesn't run away often enough.

Tom Gerard
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:45:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Ruhige Schmerz
Leave the annoying dramiel speed alone. It's not too fast, the speed is fine.

Just do as others have already suggested and tone down its drones some. Reduce drone bandwidth to 10, problem solved.

I don't really care that it can run away at will, just that it doesn't run away often enough.


The speed nerf will add risk to flying a Dramiel. But it will still sit at 20km dealing 200+ damage obsoleteing t1 cruisers and t1 frigates in all but price.

It needs to trade its falloff bonus for a damage bonus.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.25 16:21:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Tom Gerard
...

Huh? Three drones account for ~60dps (as if hobgoblins are ever used these days Smile) and guns do [email protected] (1xfalloff) using Barrage.
Kill the drones and laugh as he struggles to overcome passive recharge.

PS: Slicer gets [email protected] with scorch, but like the DD it is not considered OP just annoying as hell Smile

Skullair
Minmatar
Red Bat Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:23:00 - [280]
 

Drams IMO is a AF and Ceptor combined same for a DD...as the Dram leans more to the ceptro side on the combo and DD more to the AF side on how they are flown. So Why would u lower the Scan res of the Dram so it locks slower its a tackler not a DPS ship as the DD is. i dont see the need for this change the ship is like a ceptor speed drop ok (the speed chance is not that major of a gimp) but affecting its speed of tackleing is a bit annoying.

Ignition SemperFi
No Falcons Allowed
Posted - 2011.07.27 00:23:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 27/07/2011 00:23:30
CCP admitted years ago that the nighthawk's grid was loltastic and needed fixed, still waiting.

As a field commandship, that predates the drake, it was bad enough. Now with the drake its borderline fullweetard. oh and dont ever try to fit a gang link and have a decent fit, or even try to use hams (granted they predate the nighthawk as well)

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.07.27 04:10:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Skullair
Drams IMO is a AF and Ceptor combined


And therein lies the problem. It outintercepts interceptors. It outAFs AFs. There is literally no reason to fly any of the 16 assfrig+interceptor hulls while the Dramiel outperforms them in every metric. Superfast locktime will be the domain of interceptors. As well it should be.

Honsou Blackblade
Minmatar
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:56:00 - [283]
 

Remove split weapons on Naglfar.... please?

rensshopping
Posted - 2011.07.27 09:45:00 - [284]
 

just redo hybrids to be like all other guns but have a slight pro/con

why exactly does it have to be special again?

Shadow Wind
Gallente
Crimson Empire.
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:55:00 - [285]
 

Hybrids should do the same amount of damage at all ranges but with modifiers to tracking/range for different ammo types. Switching ammo should be quick so we can adapt to different situations too. Decrease volume of ammo and increase how many we can hold in the guns before needing to reload would be a good step as well.

Skullair
Minmatar
Red Bat Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.27 18:07:00 - [286]
 

Edited by: Skullair on 27/07/2011 18:07:50
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
Originally by: Skullair
Drams IMO is a AF and Ceptor combined


And therein lies the problem. It outintercepts interceptors. It outAFs AFs. There is literally no reason to fly any of the 16 assfrig+interceptor hulls while the Dramiel outperforms them in every metric. Superfast locktime will be the domain of interceptors. As well it should be.



well the resoun to fly a the regular frigs is the price u pay a lot more for a dram for hull and fit

Also if u let a lot of AF get on top of u in a dram u most likely lose if u dont run away

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:51:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Skullair
u pay a lot more for a dram for hull and fit


Drams would be cheap at thrice the price for what they're capable of. That said, this scaling cost:effectiveness way of thinking is how we arrived at supercarriers in their current broken-as-**** incarnation

Originally by: Skullair
Also if u let a lot of AF get on top of u in a dram u most likely lose if u dont run away


Disengaging from an unfavorable situation in a Dramiel is as easy as activating one of the two prop mods and blindly double-clicking anywhere in space. Speed and align will have you out of point range before the AF pilot's overview refreshes. Hell, you could take a few volleys on your way out thanks to your healthy MSE buffer. Neuted? No worries! Your capacitor is large enough that you'll regen a sufficient amount to at least AB or even mwd out of neut range between cycles.

Originally by: Skullair
if u dont run away


Of course you'll run away. Because you can. Nothing can stop you (providing you didn't stick around while a bunch of Rapiers appeared on grid).

tl;dr: Dramiels won't die in the hands of an even mildly competent pilot. ****'s broken, yo.

Jiao Governator
Posted - 2011.07.28 19:30:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: Jiao Governator on 29/07/2011 03:35:05
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 27/07/2011 00:23:30
CCP admitted years ago that the nighthawk's grid was loltastic and needed fixed, still waiting.

As a field commandship, that predates the drake, it was bad enough. Now with the drake its borderline fullweetard. oh and dont ever try to fit a gang link and have a decent fit, or even try to use hams (granted they predate the nighthawk as well)


This. And the NH could use another mid slot too (maybe with less base shield HP [Edit: or the loss of a low slot]).

Red Countess
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:21:00 - [289]
 

Edited by: Red Countess on 29/07/2011 17:21:36
Edited by: Red Countess on 29/07/2011 17:20:55
Interesting in what frigate pvp has turned in since dramiels were (over)buffed.

http://postimage.org/image/2i2sq0xtw/

I say let them be speed demons that they are, since variety is always welcomed but don't let them have it all, that is to say a tank and dps on top of it.

-Keep there speed as it is
-Complete removal of drones
-Slight nerf to there tank

That way they can still be best tackling ship out there for those that want to put isk into it, but it wont be solo pwnmobile that ruins frigate pvp and completely pushes interceptors out of the scene. If you have ship that can so drastically outrun interceptor then it shouldn't have tank close to that of AF and near 200 dps.



Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.31 12:06:00 - [290]
 

Drones gone and remove a mid, IMO.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.01 06:14:00 - [291]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 01/08/2011 06:14:57
Originally by: CCP Tallest
Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far:




Why not start by doing away with the tier system? If there is one single thing that makes a vast majority of ships with-in EVE next to useless it is the tier system.

Each ship should fill a role that can be useful, rather than just be a gimped ship that only fills a slot in an out dated tier system. If you want to re-balance ships start by making the bulk of them useful.

Start with the frigs and work your way up.


Zarnak Wulf
Posted - 2011.08.01 15:11:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Mutnin

Why not start by doing away with the tier system? If there is one single thing that makes a vast majority of ships with-in EVE next to useless it is the tier system.

Each ship should fill a role that can be useful, rather than just be a gimped ship that only fills a slot in an out dated tier system. If you want to re-balance ships start by making the bulk of them useful.

Start with the frigs and work your way up.




I'd rather they spent their time on things other then this. When you get into the ships, it's more other issues then the tier system. Take Minmatar -

Frigates:
  • Burst - bare bones to see if you're interested in mining. You need to be out of this in a week. Really.
  • Slasher - Super fast and super cheap. Overheating you can get it to 6.3km/s. Not bad tackle for a 30k isk ship.
  • Vigil - Let's face it. If the target painter weren't a lame e-war or if the ship got a different e-war then this frigate would be a much nicer ship. Noone complains about the Griffin.
  • Finally, the two DPS frigates are very different. The breacher is a missile spammer that can hit way out and the rifter is a gun boat.

In short, if CCP were to do an e-war overhaul I wouldn't have a problem with the above.

Cruisers:
  • Scythe - needs a different logistics bonus.
  • Bellicose - Same problem as the vigil. An e-war overhaul would redo the ship.
  • And the Stabber and Rupture, again, are two very different ships with different pros and cons.


Again, the above ships need a logistics and e-war makeover - not a complete remake. I'd rather CCP look at hybrids, hybrid platforms, supercarriers, etc.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.02 02:16:00 - [293]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 02/08/2011 02:35:28

Originally by: Zarnak Wulf


I'd rather they spent their time on things other then this. When you get into the ships, it's more other issues then the tier system. Take Minmatar -

Frigates:
  • Burst - bare bones to see if you're interested in mining. You need to be out of this in a week. Really.
  • Slasher - Super fast and super cheap. Overheating you can get it to 6.3km/s. Not bad tackle for a 30k isk ship.
  • Vigil - Let's face it. If the target painter weren't a lame e-war or if the ship got a different e-war then this frigate would be a much nicer ship. Noone complains about the Griffin.
  • Finally, the two DPS frigates are very different. The breacher is a missile spammer that can hit way out and the rifter is a gun boat.

In short, if CCP were to do an e-war overhaul I wouldn't have a problem with the above.

Cruisers:
  • Scythe - needs a different logistics bonus.
  • Bellicose - Same problem as the vigil. An e-war overhaul would redo the ship.
  • And the Stabber and Rupture, again, are two very different ships with different pros and cons.


Again, the above ships need a logistics and e-war makeover - not a complete remake. I'd rather CCP look at hybrids, hybrid platforms, supercarriers, etc.


You are kind of describing the reason the tier system is bad TBH.

Using the example of the Breacher & the Vigil.

The Vigil isn't bad and is one of the rare lower tier frigs that can work but it requires high SP's to do so (laser Vigil ftw!). The Breacher on the other hand actually has potential but that potential was lost when suck in it's spot with-in the tier system.

Think if the Breacher had the 10 slot layout like the Rifter (I don't mean same layout but 10 slots as top tier frigs have) with matching grid upgrades. You would then have a quite capable lil missile spammer and a useful T1 frig.

Yet because it has to fit in it's tier it's stuck with a 8 slot layout that pretty much gimps it just enough to not be useful and it's pretty much non existent in space because of the tier system.

The Amarr Inquisitor suffers from this same problem but it's almost workable much like the Vigil due to being "almost" top tier with 9 slot layouts. Give them that 10th slot with appropriate grid to match and suddenly you have a lot of ships that can be pretty useful.

Ships like the Probe or Burst are not combat bonused ships, so I wouldn't really include them. I just think the game would be better off if all combat ships were not limited by their spot in the tier system with limited slot layouts but rather defined by their bonus & roles.


Marcus Caspius
Caldari
Vitriol Ventures
BLACK-MARK
Posted - 2011.08.02 05:10:00 - [294]
 

The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.

I hate it when people just wanna nerf stuff.

Grow some [email protected]$, train up some skills, stop being such a cheapskate and get your own Dramiel.

How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...Twisted Evil

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.02 10:40:00 - [295]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 10:41:40
Quote:
The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.


This is the idiotic line of thinking that got applied to supercarriers. Look what happened there.

I'll put this nice and simply for a nice simple person:
price is not a balancing factor.

Also two ship skills is nothing. 2 racial frigates is what, two weeks? And sure they're 55mil but if you're a remotely competent pilot, you just won't die in it.

Quote:
How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...Twisted Evil


Which is exactly the situation that needs to be avoided at all costs.
ROLL ON DRAMIEL NERF. I only hope the other stupidly OP Angel ships follow :D

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:32:00 - [296]
 

Sweet, once again CCP gets things completely wrong.

The Dram doesn't need a nerf to its speed. A speedy faction ship is needed and a good way to have some variation within the class

The problems with the dram is that it's too tanky for the DPS and speed it goes. It should be:

- DPS
- Speed
- Tank

Pick two. But nerfing the speed leaves it as just yet another tanky DPS frigate, which we already have tons of. Leave the dramiel in its niche as high-damage tackle but either nerf its base HP or make it harder to fit an MSE so it can't easily 1v1 most other frig hulls.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.08.02 19:16:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 02/08/2011 19:20:41

Originally by: Marcus Caspius
The Dramiel is x5 or x6 the price than a regular t2 Frig and you have to train two ship skills to fly it. Off course is going to be proportionately more powerful.

I hate it when people just wanna nerf stuff.

Grow some [email protected]$, train up some skills, stop being such a cheapskate and get your own Dramiel.

How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...Twisted Evil



If that is the only reason the Dram should be good, then why are the other Pirate faction ships so bad?

Also if you base your theory by training time then Assualt frigs & interceptors should be ubber being it takes much longer to train AF or ceptors to V vs just training another racial frig to V. (ie it's quicker to max out the ship skills for a Dramiel than for an Ishkur for example)

Also price isn't a balance method.

Yulinki Atavuli
Minmatar
Caldari Investment and Security Industries
Innovia Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.02 20:00:00 - [298]
 

i believe dramiels are fine the way they are. in my cane if you get within 10k you are dead.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.02 22:05:00 - [299]
 

Originally by: Marcus Caspius
How do you beat a Dramiel? Buy and fly a Dramiel...


Guys lets all fly nothing but dramiels all the time, there's 60 different frigates in the game but we should shelve 59 of them, this will make EVE an interesting and varied space combat game

(you are stupid)

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.02 22:56:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 22:59:25
Quote:
i believe dramiels are fine the way they are. in my cane if you get within 10k you are dead.


So they're fine because they occasionally die with a stupid pilot flying them?
Also good luck getting your cane in range of a Dramiel that doesn't want you to.

Seriously, I have yet to see a single remotely convincing argument against nerfing the Dramiel. It's always the same few points:
"oh it costs more so it should be amazing"
"dramiels do die, so that makes them fine"
"OMFG JUST FLY ONE URSELF THEN LOLOLOL BRB GOING TO PLAY SOME COUNTERSTRIEK"


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