open All Channels
seplocked EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion
blankseplocked 28th Position
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic

Marcus Grisbius
Gallente
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:09:00 - [31]
 

I think it's quite obvious that ccp has no concept of the unfielded ship rule. Any unfielded points go to the opponent. Winner or loser no questions asked. That should clear up any issues with people not showing up. Ronin should have scored 62.5 and no more. In the LOST v DROOG match we both fielded fewer than 50 points which reduced our handicap. But that is offset by the unfielded ships rule. It's either/or. They should not receive both. I don't care if they paid a good chunk of change to get in or have been historically good. They didn't put up a good enough fight when they needed to and should be heading home.

M4n1c M1n3r
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:18:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Icylce
I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules:

Victory Conditions
1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner.

If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in:
- no handicap 0-34
- points for win 0*1.25
- 0 points for winning team.

U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part.


I'm afraid there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here...
Originally by: From AT9 Rules
Unused points will be added to the opponents score.

The Ronin are VERY CLEARLY entitled to:

0 = Points killed
50 = Their opponent's unused points
25% = Win bonus
Grand Total = 62.5 points.

This no longer potentially affects RvB's standing BUT it is very disappointing that the rules should not be fully and consistently applied where they are very clear about a particular point. This isn't about opinions or judgement calls, IT'S THE RULES!

**Fake Edit** Finally read the later comments and Womble makes the same point better than I do :) but I've typed it so I'm posting it.

I would like to say finally (perhaps) to CCP that correcting an earlier mistake is much less damaging than not strictly applying the rules for one team.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:30:00 - [33]
 

A team not showing up for their match is very different from fielding zero points.
The rules don't really adequately cover a situation like this, so there is no right or wrong way to rule on it, and either way is unfair to someone.

CCP made a judgement call and in this case it's the same one I would've made.

Now if R0NIN had shown up with a single destroyer, and other team had been a no-show I wouldn't give them handicap points (and I'm pretty sure the dev ruling would've been different since this kinda situation simply isn't covered properly by the rules and is simply a judgement call.)

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:51:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 18:14:02
Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 17:54:29
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
A team not showing up for their match is very different from fielding zero points.
The rules don't really adequately cover a situation like this, so there is no right or wrong way to rule on it, and either way is unfair to someone.

CCP made a judgement call and in this case it's the same one I would've made.

Now if R0NIN had shown up with a single destroyer, and other team had been a no-show I wouldn't give them handicap points (and I'm pretty sure the dev ruling would've been different since this kinda situation simply isn't covered properly by the rules and is simply a judgement call.)


Thats a very slippery slope and when does a setup become unviable? since what is viable is dependant on what your opponent fields if you field a destroyer but they field a T1 frig you have a chance to win and theoretically that could happen if there was a lot of intel and counter intel. If r0nins setup had met ours if we did not mess up i would say there is a 95% chance we would win Edit: since CCP has all the fits logged according to another thread we could actually test that ronin would have a slight advantage given our losses publicly available. If they had met 2 rattlesnakes they would have lost. 2 Tengu setup might have been interesting but again i would say 75%+ of the time r0nin would lose.

Even if the rules were not designed with this situation in mind they still work and regardless of whether 0 is a forfeit or a handicapped points total the final result should be the same because if its a forfeit you don't take anything else into account since what is being fielded is irrelevant you just say 1 team won gaining maximum normal points any bonus points cannot be gained. If you were to have someone forfeit in a sport like football the team would just be given a win they would not be given an extra goal difference because people thought they might have won anyway.


Sally Vager Itonula
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:52:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Sally Vager Itonula on 06/06/2011 17:52:18

M4n1c M1n3r
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.06 17:56:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
A team not showing up for their match is very different from fielding zero points.


When there's no minimum points or pilots limit, then I'm afraid NO, there is absolutely no difference. There is no reason to interpret or make a judgement call, it's simply and clearly written for those that wish to see it in the rules.

I'm also really not sure why if they only fielded a destroyer it would change your opinion as to whether to apply their undeserved bonus points or not. According to your own reasoning they would indeed be entitled to 50+48+25%. Or are we to believe that even judgement calls should be applied inconsistently? What if it had been two destroyers for example, or maybe three?

Rules > Judgement Calls. Transparency and as much fairness as this game can provide are essential if the integrity of the Tournament is to maintained in the eyes of all its fans.

Motty 007
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.06 18:06:00 - [37]
 

Being cynical I guess one of the reasons is 14,500,000,000 or maybe that is more than one. But apart from TT and one other I think the majority of the eve community sits on the side of the EMO team.

It is a shame that this has not been handled much more professionally by CCP. A lot of teams put in a lot of effort for this to basically be slapped in the face with the proverbial wet fish.

EMO - guys I am sorry and feel bad about the REDS going through like that I feel your pain. Womble seems a decent bloke/girl/pilot whatever.

Rant over - will get on with the job at hand now.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.06 18:11:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Motty 007
Being cynical I guess one of the reasons is 14,500,000,000 or maybe that is more than one. But apart from TT and one other I think the majority of the eve community sits on the side of the EMO team.

It is a shame that this has not been handled much more professionally by CCP. A lot of teams put in a lot of effort for this to basically be slapped in the face with the proverbial wet fish.

EMO - guys I am sorry and feel bad about the REDS going through like that I feel your pain. Womble seems a decent bloke/girl/pilot whatever.

Rant over - will get on with the job at hand now.


Bloke but i can be a your girl for the night with enough isk as an incentive Wink . Actually on a slightly weird but related note i have actually volunteered to be the model/test subject/whatever for the daughter of one of the people i work with who is doing a effects make-up course thing. So on Wednesday she is attempting to make me look like a woman unfortunately i don't have the guts to post before and after pics here.

Xan Drakov
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.06.06 19:12:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 19:13:09
Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 19:12:36
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: Motty 007
Being cynical I guess one of the reasons is 14,500,000,000 or maybe that is more than one. But apart from TT and one other I think the majority of the eve community sits on the side of the EMO team.

It is a shame that this has not been handled much more professionally by CCP. A lot of teams put in a lot of effort for this to basically be slapped in the face with the proverbial wet fish.

EMO - guys I am sorry and feel bad about the REDS going through like that I feel your pain. Womble seems a decent bloke/girl/pilot whatever.

Rant over - will get on with the job at hand now.


Bloke but i can be a your girl for the night with enough isk as an incentive Wink . Actually on a slightly weird but related note i have actually volunteered to be the model/test subject/whatever for the daughter of one of the people i work with who is doing a effects make-up course thing. So on Wednesday she is attempting to make me look like a woman unfortunately i don't have the guts to post before and after pics here.


Share much? ;-)

+1 for before and after pics

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.06.07 08:24:00 - [40]
 

Sort it the Eve way: With blood and tears.

Set up a three way (5v5v5) between Ronin, EMO and RvB-R.

Televise it as the first match to kick of the weekend frolicking.

Motty 007
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.07 09:02:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Sort it the Eve way: With blood and tears.

Set up a three way (5v5v5) between Ronin, EMO and RvB-R.

Televise it as the first match to kick of the weekend frolicking.


Why RVB-R, I just do not think the decision is right for R0NIN. May as well say Paisti / WI / PL / etc etc

Icylce
Frost Palace
Posted - 2011.06.07 11:18:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: M4n1c M1n3r
Originally by: Icylce
I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules:

Victory Conditions
1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner.

If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in:
- no handicap 0-34
- points for win 0*1.25
- 0 points for winning team.

U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part.


I'm afraid there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here...
Originally by: From AT9 Rules
Unused points will be added to the opponents score.

The Ronin are VERY CLEARLY entitled to:

0 = Points killed
50 = Their opponent's unused points
25% = Win bonus
Grand Total = 62.5 points.

This no longer potentially affects RvB's standing BUT it is very disappointing that the rules should not be fully and consistently applied where they are very clear about a particular point. This isn't about opinions or judgement calls, IT'S THE RULES!

**Fake Edit** Finally read the later comments and Womble makes the same point better than I do :) but I've typed it so I'm posting it.

I would like to say finally (perhaps) to CCP that correcting an earlier mistake is much less damaging than not strictly applying the rules for one team.



Opps. I missed that ruleEmbarassed.
You are tottaly right then Ronin should have gotten 50(unused)x1.25

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:34:00 - [43]
 

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

your anal rules lawyering isn't going to change the fact that not showing up for a match is completely different from fielding fewer points for a ranking advantage

the handicap rule wasn't designed with no-shows in mind so a judgement call was required and made

(they also got it right for a change, making a decision that benefits the quality of the tournament, ronin historically being a strong team unlike the team that would otherwise have been in 28th place which is just another average non-contender)

Xan Drakov
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:49:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Xan Drakov on 07/06/2011 13:13:25
Originally by: CCP Zirnitra
Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47
Originally by: kloma
i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something.


It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus.



Surely giving them full points for a win isn't penalising them? Your giving them the win. The fact that that would ultimately meant they were out of the tournament shouldn't even enter the discussion as as soon as you start considering the implications of such a decision you run the risk of losing impartiallity. You have to make the decision based on the isolated information.

Yes it would have been harsh on The R0NIN to essentially be unable to qualify because of a no-show, but surely it's more unfair to not allow another team to qualify for the same reasons?

Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.06.07 12:55:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

your anal rules lawyering isn't going to change the fact that not showing up for a match is completely different from fielding fewer points for a ranking advantage



Since there is no minimum required number of points to field, I have to conclude that a team is allowed to field 0 points. Now please explain how fielding 0 points would differ from what happened in the ronin match.

Yes, it is "anal lawyering", but that is what the rules are for. If there is no rule that applies, then a judgement call needs to be made. But if there is a rule that applies, then people will base their decisions on that rule. If you later ignore the rule, people lose trust in your impartiality.

There are many cases in a real-life court where the judge has to enforce some law even though everyone in the courtroom knows that the law wasn't meant to apply to the situation at hand. It was just a poorly written/thought out law. But it still gets enforced.

You can't change the rules mid-game just because the rules were bad.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.07 13:52:00 - [46]
 

So why would there be alternate teams if it's perfectly acceptable to field 0 points ?

Anyways it's a moot point, you think that rule applies, I don't - judge already made his ruling.

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.06.07 14:12:00 - [47]
 

The way you guys are arguing is that the sure fire way to make a team go out that needs 63 points is to not field a team. This is obviously wrong.

I think CCP made the right call here.

Forfeiture does not equal handicap.

CCP Mindstar

Posted - 2011.06.07 14:21:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: M4n1c M1n3r
Originally by: Icylce
I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules:

Victory Conditions
1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner.

If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in:
- no handicap 0-34
- points for win 0*1.25
- 0 points for winning team.

U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part.


I'm afraid there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here...
Originally by: From AT9 Rules
Unused points will be added to the opponents score.

The Ronin are VERY CLEARLY entitled to:

0 = Points killed
50 = Their opponent's unused points
25% = Win bonus
Grand Total = 62.5 points.

This no longer potentially affects RvB's standing BUT it is very disappointing that the rules should not be fully and consistently applied where they are very clear about a particular point. This isn't about opinions or judgement calls, IT'S THE RULES!

**Fake Edit** Finally read the later comments and Womble makes the same point better than I do :) but I've typed it so I'm posting it.

I would like to say finally (perhaps) to CCP that correcting an earlier mistake is much less damaging than not strictly applying the rules for one team.



This reasoning is correct if you assume that a total forfeit is treating the score as 0 fielded points. That assumption is however, incorrect.

We treat forfeits as if the winning team face a full team and kill them all, and this is done for a reason. Low ranking teams who decide to not show up to their match can essentially grief other teams out of the tournament if they are trying to legitimately use the handicap rule to get extra points.

The argument that The R0NIN did not kill a ship and still managed to progress is a compelling one, and to be honest they could be considered lucky that the other team didn't show up (given how many points they handicapped by). That said, that they killed no ships in their second fight is no fault of their own and they should not be penalized for it. In our opinion it is the only way to fairly call this match.

This call was made long before the cutoff point was known for the group stage, and at that time we discussed at length the possibility that another team might be bumped out of contention if The R0NIN did make the cut. Ultimately though, we feel that it would be unfairly penalizing The R0NIN to make any other call.

Marcus Grisbius
Gallente
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Posted - 2011.06.07 15:28:00 - [49]
 

Then what is the purpose for the unfielded ship rule? That is supposed to be the counter to the ships killed points in case the team fields fewer or in this case no points. There is no difference in fielding a destroyer and not showing up. The opponent still has the opportunity to collect the full points from the fight. Handicapping is a risk. We came in with a 9 point handicap but only received 4 because our opponent only fielded 45 pts. To say the situation is different because of a forfeit makes no sense because they already received the compensation for a no show with the unfielded points rule. Giving them a double bonus is not right since other teams that did fight opponents had no chance for the second bonus. That is completely unfair. Apply the rules as written during the competition. If there are changes to be made then adjust the rules for the following year.

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.06.07 18:21:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: The Hardman on 07/06/2011 18:21:14
Yes.

The rules that are written.

Which is that a forfeiture is an automatic lost. It is not a 50 point handicap.

It is impossible to have a 50 point handicap, because it is impossible to win with 0 points.


Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.07 20:12:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 07/06/2011 20:14:22
Originally by: CCP Mindstar


This reasoning is correct if you assume that a total forfeit is treating the score as 0 fielded points. That assumption is however, incorrect.

We treat forfeits as if the winning team face a full team and kill them all, and this is done for a reason. Low ranking teams who decide to not show up to their match can essentially grief other teams out of the tournament if they are trying to legitimately use the handicap rule to get extra points.

The argument that The R0NIN did not kill a ship and still managed to progress is a compelling one, and to be honest they could be considered lucky that the other team didn't show up (given how many points they handicapped by). That said, that they killed no ships in their second fight is no fault of their own and they should not be penalized for it. In our opinion it is the only way to fairly call this match.

This call was made long before the cutoff point was known for the group stage, and at that time we discussed at length the possibility that another team might be bumped out of contention if The R0NIN did make the cut. Ultimately though, we feel that it would be unfairly penalizing The R0NIN to make any other call.



Mindstar if a match is forfeited then the setup used is irrelevant the fact that one of you guys said that you made the descion based on the fact that you thought it was a viable setup but someone else could come with a horrible setup that you think was not viable but they may think is genius however even if they would have lost to almost anyone under the sun if your deciding this is a forfeit then that setup becomes irrelevant. As i mentioned if this was football (soccer for those strange people and mindstar himself) the other team would never be given an addition +10 goal difference (which is tbh effectively what this comes down to) just because you thought they might have won by that much anyway.

The problem with the ruling is effectively you are arbitrarily deciding that UNIT would come with 50 points which may or may not be the case. Additionally you are then saying that you think R0NIN would win. TBH i actually have (or had possibly by now) an alt in UNIT i could happily have shown up in a single ship and R0NIN would have had no handicap. In fact if they really want a fight.......

As i have stated before this is not about getting R0NIN out of the tournament i accepted that we are out because we lost when we should have won and that is our fault. This is about making sure that things are better next year.

Also Tyrrax made a comment in the other thread about R0NIN being better than us so the tourney would be better unfortunately the thread seems to have gone now so i cant reply there but i will make my point here instead.

The R0NIN may or may not be better than us so far this tournament they have shown nothing to indicate that they are. I would say setups wise we could quite happily compete with most people and you may look at what we lost with on Sunday and disagree but i know having fought in that fight we were winning until a small mistake was made and having tested it against a lot of other setups i was very happy with it. In terms of execution well we made some mistakes in our second fight which were costly and some in our first which were not but then i seem to remember one of the R0NINs pilots having a boundary violation in the first fight that lost it for them so not a great showing there. The truth of the matter is most of our pilots have barely touched eve recently so were a little rusty but then life > eve.

Being a known entity or a celebrity does not make you good and having contacts doesn't either it also doesn't make you any more or less deserving of a place in the tournament. And the reason you will never hear of us is because were not big egos (except splash but most of his characters are currently elsewhere) we enjoy the small group nature of our alliance and if people want to do other things they have alts.

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.07 20:20:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Random Womble

Also Tyrrax made a comment in the other thread about R0NIN being better than us so the tourney would be better unfortunately the thread seems to have gone now so i cant reply there but i will make my point here instead.

The R0NIN may or may not be better than us so far this tournament they have shown nothing to indicate that they are.


My last post was getting too long so I could not edit this in but I would just like to say I would find it very amusing if they are knocked out next round or just sc**** through against some horrible teams.

Tyrrax Thorrk
Amarr
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.07 20:51:00 - [53]
 

ronin made it to finals in a previous tournament, i forget if they won or were second place ;O

Anyways no point in yelling at mindstar about it, not like ronin being better than you would factor into CCP's decision, they're not me. xD

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.06.08 06:27:00 - [54]
 

Getting through the qualifiers without killing a single ship is a joke. Something different should have been done.

The tournament rules are a joke. They reward teams for getting their stuff exploded. The best strategy is to wait until you have the last enemy ship in low structure, and then have every ship except one self destruct just in case you run into a tie like EMO and RVB did. You don't get penalized for losses. You get rewarded.

Saxton Hale
Posted - 2011.06.08 08:43:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
ronin made it to finals in a previous tournament, i forget if they won or were second place ;O



R0NIN have changed quite a lot since then. They cascaded last autumn and a single corp rejoined to use the name for the tourney. And U'K beat them quite handily it seems, partly due to very poor piloting from one of the team.

SuperSlow
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:28:00 - [56]
 

Should just do a frigate hull duel to the death, like the only the did for alliance tournament 3.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.10 18:36:00 - [57]
 

I think CCP made the right call with respect to the Ronin. Yes, they didn't really suffer from not having the full points on their team (and so maybe the "handicap" points are not really deserved), but it's not absolutely not fair to the Ronin to penalize them for their opponents not showing up.



Pages: 1 [2]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only