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Motty 007
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.05 21:38:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Motty 007 on 05/06/2011 21:41:24
I cannot see where you can split the 28th and 29th place on the system you have up to now.

I still say the RONIN score is unfair for them to progress without killing a ship where ourselves and EMO both won a match
there is no minimum fleets score and ronin fought against a fleet of 0 therefore no undershipping score should be benefitted.

Pre-Qualifying Rankings

If at any point, teams are level in Win/Loss and also level in points scored, the following will be used in order to determine ranking position.

If the teams disputing rank have fought each other at any point, the winner is higher.
The current ranking (W/L, then points) of the last team that you defeated. Higher is better.
The current ranking of the last team that defeated you. Again, higher is better.

Can you please clear this up CCP.

SirJoJo
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.06.05 21:42:00 - [2]
 

isent it gonna be ranked after the the ranks of the opponents you had?

kloma
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.06.05 21:46:00 - [3]
 

close either way, we could always fight for it.

t1 frigs anyone? :P

Motty 007
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.05 21:47:00 - [4]
 

SirJoJo

Those stats are identical for us and EMO

M4n1c M1n3r
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.05 21:49:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: M4n1c M1n3r on 05/06/2011 21:50:37
CCP

I'd like to suggest that regardless of what I've read on the forums, and as yet unconfirmed by CCP, it seems reasonably clear that given the following stated rules for AT9:
Quote:
Intentional Handicaps

If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values.


Quote:
During Pre-Qualifying rounds, teams have a total of 50 points to select ships. There is no minimum number of pilots or points a team needs to field during the pre-qualifiers.


The Ronin, should be entitled to receive the 50 points + 25% for their 'win'. The additional 16 points should not, according to the above rules, be allocated to them as there was clearly no handicap involved. i.e. we have not seen a 50-34=16 point handicap but rather it was a 36-0=36 point advantage. The 50 points + 25% for the win therefore seem perfectly valid without any bonus points applied.

This would then look to put both Red and EMO at joint 28th (I think).

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.05 22:36:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 05/06/2011 22:41:02
Yea this whole area is going to be interesting because just by whats written in the rules one strict interpretation is that the ranking decider based on the last team you defeated states only W/L then points of opponents so arguably it should then move on to the 3rd deciding factor. The problem is if you also take into account those other 2 teams final ranking which in both their cases is based on the third factor but then it seems unfair to use the third factor for ranking those two teams in order to decide the second factor for another two teams especially when only points and W/L are state in the rules to be taken into account. either way its an interesting conundrum.

But hey with the whole r0nin thing its made even more fun.

Which ever way CCP falls there is the potential for a bit of controversy.


Edited to make my post even more confusing.

kloma
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.06.05 22:46:00 - [7]
 

should just make an extra slot :P

Velox Versutus
Minmatar
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.05 23:26:00 - [8]
 

I suppose if CCP could see all the outcomes the servers would never go downSmile.

It will be an interesting ruling.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.05 23:52:00 - [9]
 


CCP Mindstar

Posted - 2011.06.05 23:58:00 - [10]
 

Hey guys,

We just put the Pre Qualifying rankings up. It took a little while to work through the rankings dispute over 28th place, however we have done it according to the rules, and there is a full explanation of the process used at the bottom of the page.

Cheers
Mindstar

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:04:00 - [11]
 

Random fortune smiles on RED.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:08:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:13:06
Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state. TEST didn't lose to rank 28th, but to someone who in this instance could only rank higher than Reverb's betters, Corcoran? Only then does it define their place and thus the exact rank of TEST's betters.

CCP Mindstar

Posted - 2011.06.06 00:11:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:08:42
Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state.


The disupte resolves, in this case, regardless of whether Test are 28th or 29th.

Velox Versutus
Minmatar
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:08:42
Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state.


The disupte resolves, in this case, regardless of whether Test are 28th or 29th.


Test?

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:14:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:14:26
Yes it ends up with the same result but it isn't resolved in the way you've written on the site.

CCP Mindstar

Posted - 2011.06.06 00:16:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Velox Versutus
Originally by: CCP Mindstar
Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 06/06/2011 00:08:42
Isn't it still a bit cyclic, that Red would be positioned 28th or 29th, which leads to resolving 59th and thus then 28th? It's not in the order that you state.


The disupte resolves, in this case, regardless of whether Test are 28th or 29th.


Test?


Ugh. my bad, I meant RvB.

I will re-word it to clarify that they could be either 28 or 29 during the resolving process.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:21:00 - [17]
 

I'm too tired/CBA to think it through now, but could you not have been screwed if 2 pairs referenced each other? That a ruling either way would be self-consistent but arbitrary? Is this not a flaw in the mechanism?

CCP Mindstar

Posted - 2011.06.06 00:25:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
I'm too tired/CBA to think it through now, but could you not have been screwed if 2 pairs referenced each other? That a ruling either way would be self-consistent but arbitrary? Is this not a flaw in the mechanism?

It is a risk, yes. It did not apply this time and thankfully has not applied in any of the tournaments where we have used this system thus far.

We are well aware though if and when we end up with a true tie, that there will need to be a fair way to resolve it Smile

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 00:28:00 - [19]
 

Care to define that ahead of time, for impartiality's sake?

CCP Mindstar

Posted - 2011.06.06 00:48:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Daneel Trevize
Care to define that ahead of time, for impartiality's sake?


I'll talk to the team this week and come up with something, to cover the case that we have any disputes going into the finals.

Evilan Altana
Moriar Libera
Posted - 2011.06.06 07:06:00 - [21]
 

While the tie for 28 seems to make sense and follow the rules how can you justify the number of points The RONIN received for the second round

"If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values."

They did not field more than their opponents and as a result should have only received 62.5 points for their victory. Which would shift both 28 and 29 up in the standings.

Icylce
Frost Palace
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:25:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: M4n1c M1n3r


The Ronin, should be entitled to receive the 50 points + 25% for their 'win'. The additional 16 points should not, according to the above rules, be allocated to them as there was clearly no handicap involved. i.e. we have not seen a 50-34=16 point handicap but rather it was a 36-0=36 point advantage. The 50 points + 25% for the win therefore seem perfectly valid without any bonus points applied.

This would then look to put both Red and EMO at joint 28th (I think).


I do not think I can agree with that. As I understand the rules:

Victory Conditions
1.During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner.

If u take into account this rule Ronin won the match but didn't score any points (no ships were fielded for them to destroy) resulting in:
- no handicap 0-34
- points for win 0*1.25
- 0 points for winning team.

U have to agree that such sollution does not make sense because u are bassicaly sanctioning the team that took part.

During Pre-Qualifying rounds, teams have a total of 50 points to select ships. There is no minimum number of pilots or points a team needs to field during the pre-qualifiers.

For Ronin to recieve any points for win u have to assume the opposing team fielded Fleet worth of 50 points. Fleet point value participants are able to field, is between 0 and 50 included. Because the lowest limit doesn't grant the winning team no points u have to go with the 50 point limit.

So u create a fictional situation where 1 team fielded 50 point fleet and the other team fielded 34 point fleet. Hence the handicap is created: 50-34 = 16

I believe the handicap is rightfull for one simple reason:

Intentional Handicaps

If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values.

Ronin with 0 points after the 1 day of qualifiers found itself in very unfavourable position. Their chances to advance to the main competition would be very low, if they fielded full point fleet. So their intention on the day 2 was to field less points than the opponent in order to get advantage from winning the match. However they did not know how many points the opponent would field. The key word here is the Intention of participating team to field less points. Their intention was proven after they warped (dont know how the forfeith actually happened, but I quess CCP couldn't get the other team so they let Ronin warp to arena to declare them winners) to the arena.

So CCP basicaly had 2 choices give Ronin 0 points or go all the way and give them full credit for the match.

Tldr: If u give Ronin 50 points for the win even tough they didn't score any point u have to take into account the handicapt because u are operating under assumption that the losing team fielded 50 points.



kloma
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.06.06 10:44:00 - [23]
 

i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something.

CCP Zirnitra

Posted - 2011.06.06 11:23:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47
Originally by: kloma
i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something.

Icylce has pretty much listed the reasoning we used in this situation to award them the full win + handicap points. We have to take the position that there was no way for The R0NIN to know, that United Front Alliance was not gonna field a team, as UFA themselves didn't know until an hour before the match. We spent an extra 10 minutes talking to the UFA guys, trying to get a team for a last stand kind of thing, so we wouldn't have a forfeit, but they were unable to do so and decided to forfeit the match.

It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus.

With regards to alternate / backup teams, that would have been very unfair to the backup team, as we would have to award them the points and ranking of the team they replaced, in thus case 0 wins and 0 points, giving them no chance what so ever to advance to the final stages, as they would have to handicap themselves similarly to have a shadow of a chance. We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played.

Daneel Trevize
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 11:52:00 - [25]
 

The backup teams are there to have a fight, no? Not to gift the opposition a max points win!

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.06 12:45:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: CCP Zirnitra
Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47
Originally by: kloma
i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something.

Icylce has pretty much listed the reasoning we used in this situation to award them the full win + handicap points. We have to take the position that there was no way for The R0NIN to know, that United Front Alliance was not gonna field a team, as UFA themselves didn't know until an hour before the match. We spent an extra 10 minutes talking to the UFA guys, trying to get a team for a last stand kind of thing, so we wouldn't have a forfeit, but they were unable to do so and decided to forfeit the match.

It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus.

With regards to alternate / backup teams, that would have been very unfair to the backup team, as we would have to award them the points and ranking of the team they replaced, in thus case 0 wins and 0 points, giving them no chance what so ever to advance to the final stages, as they would have to handicap themselves similarly to have a shadow of a chance. We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played.

Well they have no chance of making it in to the final stages anyway, but letting them play would give a potentially fun fight and a more fair situation for the other teams affected by the "match".

Random Womble
Minmatar
Emo Rangers
Electric Monkey Overlords
Posted - 2011.06.06 12:47:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 12:49:41
Edited by: Random Womble on 06/06/2011 12:48:28
Originally by: CCP Zirnitra
Edited by: CCP Zirnitra on 06/06/2011 11:22:47
Originally by: kloma
i agree with you icycle, but tbh there should have beena 3rd option, either a backup fleet to fight, or something.

Icylce has pretty much listed the reasoning we used in this situation to award them the full win + handicap points. We have to take the position that there was no way for The R0NIN to know, that United Front Alliance was not gonna field a team, as UFA themselves didn't know until an hour before the match. We spent an extra 10 minutes talking to the UFA guys, trying to get a team for a last stand kind of thing, so we wouldn't have a forfeit, but they were unable to do so and decided to forfeit the match.

It would have been unfair for us to penalize The R0NIN, who did bring a viable, although fragile setup to the match, as they knew they had to handicap themselves to make it into the final stages. However, on a side note, what United Front Alliance could have done, was to bring one or two small, low points ships and that would have removed The R0NIN's handicap bonus.

With regards to alternate / backup teams, that would have been very unfair to the backup team, as we would have to award them the points and ranking of the team they replaced, in thus case 0 wins and 0 points, giving them no chance what so ever to advance to the final stages, as they would have to handicap themselves similarly to have a shadow of a chance. We had already decided prior to the tournament start, that no alternate teams would be used, after the first round had been played.


With all due respect Zirnitra in my personal opinion you are wrong. Dont get me wrong im not going to argue endlessly for the decision to be overturned but as i said in the other thread i feel this should be corrected for any future occurrences. This incident was clearly covered by 4 sets of rules:

Firstly UNIT fielded 0 points which is covered by this rule:

Quote:
Each team has 100 points with which to select their ships. Teams must use a minimum of 50 points.
During Pre-Qualifying rounds, teams have a total of 50 points to select ships. There is no minimum number of pilots or points a team needs to field during the pre-qualifiers.


They did not break any rules by fielding nothing. So in reality arbitrary deciding they would have fielded 50 is just plain wrong.

Quote:
Unused points will be added to the opponents score.


therefore R0NIN should get 50 points

Quote:
Intentional Handicaps

If a team begins the match with less points value worth of ships than their opponent, and wins the match, they score extra ranking points equal to the difference in the two teams' values.


Unit started off with less as they had 0 therefore R0NIN are not entitled tot he handicap.

As the final nail in the coffin for this either you have to assume UNIT started with 0 points therefore R0NIN gets all their unused points but no handicap otherwise you have to assume unit fielded a full 50 point team at which point

Quote:
During a match, a team scores points for each enemy ship it kills, equal to the tournament points value of that ship. The team that has scored the most points at the conclusion of the match, or that destroys the entire opposing team, is the winner.


Comes into play and R0NIN destroyed no ships therefore they cannot score any points by that rule or claimed to have destroyed the entire team.

So either they scored 0 points or they do not get the handicap bonus and get the unused 50 points.

And those are the rules you guys made them. I could argue that you have mashed up several rules in order to give the r0nin points is a case of favouritism but we all know that it was just an overly quick decision made under pressure.

Xan Drakov
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.06.06 12:56:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 13:08:16
Originally by: Icylce

Tldr: If u give Ronin 50 points for the win even tough they didn't score any point u have to take into account the handicapt because u are operating under assumption that the losing team fielded 50 points.


Your not giving them the 50 points as a default - VC3: "If a team chooses to field less than 100 (50) points, unfielded points count towards the opponent's score". They fielded a team of zero, leaving 50pts unfielded thus the R0nin get 50 pts.

I'm sorry to the R0nin but Womble makes a very good case. At no point in the rules does it say fielding a team of zero is illegal or results in the match being forfeit.

Surely by this reasoning if a team in the group stage got a match with an alt alliance of there's they could just turn up with 1 dessy and have the other team not turn up basically putting them through the group stage?

steave435
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.06.06 13:17:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Xan Drakov
Edited by: Xan Drakov on 06/06/2011 13:08:16
Originally by: Icylce

Tldr: If u give Ronin 50 points for the win even tough they didn't score any point u have to take into account the handicapt because u are operating under assumption that the losing team fielded 50 points.


Your not giving them the 50 points as a default - VC3: "If a team chooses to field less than 100 (50) points, unfielded points count towards the opponent's score". They fielded a team of zero, leaving 50pts unfielded thus the R0nin get 50 pts.

I'm sorry to the R0nin but Womble makes a very good case. At no point in the rules does it say fielding a team of zero is illegal or results in the match being forfeit.

Surely by this reasoning if a team in the group stage got a match with an alt alliance of there's they could just turn up with 1 dessy and have the other team not turn up basically putting them through the group stage?

No, there's a 50 point minimum in the 10 man matches, but that could have been done anyway by having the other team bring the maximum points and then selfdestruct/allow themselves to be killed.

Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
DarkSide.
Posted - 2011.06.06 16:22:00 - [30]
 

The decision to award The R0NIN handicap points is clearly wrong. Furthermore, considering the harsh, cold, "them's the breaks" attitude CCP usually takes towards players, the reasoning, as explained by CCP Zirnitra, invokes suspicions of favoritism.

Yes, The R0NIN meant to field a handicap, but they didn't. I'm sure that, for example, Chain of Chaos, meant to obliterate all of their opponents' ships, but they didn't, and nobody pitied them or broke clearly stated rules to give them points.


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