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Hormone1971
Caldari
Neutral Industries L8
Posted - 2011.06.04 00:17:00 - [1]
 


Planning to fly in Amarr space.
I have almost maxed Cruise Skills (only need Cruise Missile Spec 5).
All other missile skills at 5.
I also have maxed TP skills.

I also need to perma run my tank as I have young kids and occasionally need to leave mid mission.

Should I stick with my golem or change to a CNR for blitzing?

And what config would I have in the CNR for this and in the past, I have been underwhelmed with a CNR v a Golem.
Happy with deadspace or faction fits (cant justify Officer prices)

Helen Hunts
Gallente
Red Dragon Mining inc
Red Dragon Industries
Posted - 2011.06.04 01:38:00 - [2]
 

For maximum DPS, the Golem wins. (Torpedoes work best here)
For easier fitting and not having to worry about range, Raven/RNI (Cruises work better here)

With the Golem, you'll NEED all the missile support skills at 5, and have in your clone's head at LEAST the 3% torp boost implants. (5% if you're serious about it)
On the Golem itself, T2 rigs for missile range/speed.
With all this, standard torps will hit things orbiting at 38k well enough, while Javelins will reach all the way out to 62k.

The CNR is the better choice for Cruises, really. Range is dictated by how far one can lock targets.

In both cases, with good skills, the tank can be based off of 1 or 2 Pithi B-Type SMALL shield booster. The smalls, with a little help from a Boost Amp or two, will easily keep up with almost anything, and cap use is very light.
Now since the smalls aren't using up much cap, one can do away with CCC rigs, in favor of things that help the missiles do nasty things to others.


Now as for running a shield tank in Amarr space... You are in for a world of hurt there. It can be done, but it's going to hurt. Best bring some more tank with you. (Golem has an extra mid + boosts to shield boost and TP)

Goose99
Posted - 2011.06.04 02:07:00 - [3]
 

Neither. Get a Navy Scorpion instead. CNR or Golems are decent when gank fit, but having to permaboost changes the equations.

For example, a SNI with 4 bcs gives the same dps as CNR with 3 dps, while having better cap stability and far better tank. Thus, it's a waste to fit CNR with any less than 4 bcs. CNR and Golems are gank boats due to their high dps as far as missile boats are concerned. When made cap stable, they fail.

Train Amar for Amar missioning, or Gallente droneboat for real afk.

themaker1971
Minmatar
Neutral Industries L8
Posted - 2011.06.04 02:49:00 - [4]
 

care to share you recomended scorp fit then?

Tenzeck
Posted - 2011.06.04 02:50:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Hormone1971


Should I stick with my golem or change to a CNR for blitzing?




Stick with the Golem if it's working for you already. I wouldn't choose either ship you've chosen for AFK, though. The Golem is one of the least AFK friendly ships in the game, even though it can fit the tank needed to do it. It simply requires a lot of management to get the most out of it.

I wouldn't even consider the Raven Navy Issue as it can't bring the kind of tank you need for AFK without making it drastically worse than other options.

Goose offers some decent advice, but I think I'd get the pirate faction cousin of the SNI and grab a Rattlesnake. With either choice using the Scorpion hull you can fit the kind of tank you need without giving up much in the way of DPS potential.

The downside of that is the Scorpion hull ships have a lot less damage potential than the Golem. That's only if you fit the Golem for maximum DPS with torpedoes and actively keep several target painters on your targets, though. The way it sounds like you're trying to fly it, I'd be willing to bet the Scorpion is a much better fit.

General Trajan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.04 03:25:00 - [6]
 

if you want the very best of the navy raven then fly it with sentry for max damage. and keep the golem as well. you'll want both boats for particular missions in amarr space. my caldari alt missions in amarr space. i use golem, CNR and tengu.

and don't do stable tanks either. if you know you're going to be called away to see about your kids/whatev then you really should be docked at station anyways. no station system? log offski till you get back. low/null sec habbits should always stay with you Wink

can't be asked to do that then yeah, navy scorp and rattlesnake is what you're really lookin for.

Allbrecht
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2011.06.04 03:32:00 - [7]
 

I love my golem. I never flew a CNR though.

I like the golem because it gives me something to do through missions. Between doing the actual mission, tractor beaming the wrecks to me, and salvaging loot im always occupied with something during a mission. i always felt guilty about not looting things so now when slow boating between deadspace gates i can at least loot/salvage 90% of the wrecks (100% if you wait an extra 2 minutes haha).

the only scary thing to me is the bad t2 insurance in case something goes wrong.

Loraine Gess
Posted - 2011.06.04 03:58:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Helen Hunts
For maximum DPS, the Golem wins.




CNR gets better DPS than golem if torpedo fit.

Mini T
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.06.04 04:12:00 - [9]
 

I would +1 for the SNI or Rattler. I have flown both and for tank they are hard to beat. I just decided to focus on the Rattler more and have my SNI up for sale in Jita (with rigs).

I would have kept them both, but wanted to try out a Tengu for a while. I kept the Rattler for those times I too have to be back and forth from the keyboard. So easy to tank and the Drones make things different.

I use it to support my corp mates as a repper when we are out together. Love the SNI though.

Manda Rin
Minmatar
Sexy Thoughts
Posted - 2011.06.04 04:12:00 - [10]
 

According to Burn Eden the Golem macro's better.

Hormone1971
Caldari
Neutral Industries L8
Posted - 2011.06.04 21:38:00 - [11]
 

i will add some more info.
When i say afk, its no more than a few mins, so not real afk missions in the true sense. just needs to be able to survive.
and yes, i know the golem is time intensive while missioning.
I have missioned in amarr space in the past and i must admit, range wins, sansha hurt close.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.06.04 21:45:00 - [12]
 

Why not a Tengu. It can permarun its repper and your sig/speed tank is ridiculously strong.
You can fly rounds in AE4 bonus room (after shooting the webbers) for 15 minutes and never drop shields below 90%.

Hormone1971
Caldari
Neutral Industries L8
Posted - 2011.06.04 21:52:00 - [13]
 

i have a Tengu also but find its DPS lacking and i am L5 in all the skills for it also.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.06.04 22:04:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Hormone1971
i have a Tengu also but find its DPS lacking and i am L5 in all the skills for it also.


It depends on what you're comparing it to. A Mach or NM's 1k dps will kill larger rats noticeable faster than 700dps from a hml tengu. Ham tengu lacks range. However, the 500-600(depending on ammo) of cruise dps out of a CNR will feel clearly inferior to 700dps hml dps out of a tengu that hits well down to frigates. CNR has another 150 dps in the form of mid drones, but keep in mind, drones are highly skill dependent, without good drone skills, with typical gunboat characters, you can only count on half of that 150 dps, maybe less.

Hormone1971
Caldari
Neutral Industries L8
Posted - 2011.06.04 22:12:00 - [15]
 

I am comparing it to the Golem (which i love). i am yet to see a better caldari ship for the missions i run (angel space and even amarr).
Perhaps i just stick with it?

Perhaps i cross train to the Nightmare for Sansha?


Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Hormone1971
i have a Tengu also but find its DPS lacking and i am L5 in all the skills for it also.


It depends on what you're comparing it to. .

Tenzeck
Posted - 2011.06.05 01:11:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Tenzeck on 05/06/2011 01:14:49
Originally by: Hormone1971
I am comparing it to the Golem (which i love). i am yet to see a better caldari ship for the missions i run (angel space and even amarr).
Perhaps i just stick with it?


Stick with it, then. It's a great ship.

I'd use the Tengu for some missions and the Golem for others. In fact, the last time I ran missions I was doing that with Nightmare/Tengu, but I was in Amarr space.

Yes, the Nightmare is worth training for if you're going to do missions in Amarr space.

In fact, I fly the Tengu (HML), Nightmare (beam) and Golem (torp).

I have run them all in a lot of missions, and the three of them together basically cover you in any mission you could want to do. However, I used to mission in Amarr space and have since moved on to doing WH space and Incursions.

I used the Golem a lot when I ran missions in Gallente space, but I have found no use for the Golem in Amarr space, W-space or Incursions. Some people bring a Golem to vanguard OTA sites, though I think the Nightmare is a far superior option. I now stick to the Tengu and Nightmare. I am also working on the Loki currently.

Edit: I forgot to add that as far as the damage for the Tengu goes, you should be breaking 700dps without implants or rigs. If not, it's your skills or fit that is the problem. A Tengu isn't going to come close to a properly fit torp Golem against battleships and BCs, but if you're up against a lot of frigates or have to move around a lot, the Tengu will be faster. Worlds Collide is a great Tengu mission, for example.

Reginus
Inuit Associates
Posted - 2011.06.05 03:01:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Reginus on 05/06/2011 16:05:28
Edited by: Reginus on 05/06/2011 03:02:44
Cap stable CNR:

[Raven Navy Issue, Permatanker]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Domination Target Painter

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Garde II x3

DPS is 789
Tanks 552 dps (with 66% em, 33% thermal, and full Crystals.)

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.06.05 03:14:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Reginus

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster



lol etc.

Loraine Gess
Posted - 2011.06.05 09:08:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Loraine Gess on 05/06/2011 09:08:16
Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Reginus

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster



lol etc.


Not that lol... the boosters do exist. He'd just have to shell out a ridiculous amount of isk for one and wait for one to become available. Market price was 1.9b last I checked.

Skailay
Posted - 2011.06.05 09:21:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Skailay on 05/06/2011 09:22:02
Originally by: Reginus
Cap stable CNR:



locator agent, goooo

Reginus
Inuit Associates
Posted - 2011.06.05 16:04:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Loraine Gess
Edited by: Loraine Gess on 05/06/2011 09:08:16
Originally by: Aamrr
lol etc.


Not that lol... the boosters do exist. He'd just have to shell out a ridiculous amount of isk for one and wait for one to become available. Market price was 1.9b last I checked.


I think I saw one for 1.6b in The Forge last night. But in any case, you could replace the booster with a Gistum C-type if you didn't have the money for it.

Loraine Gess
Posted - 2011.06.05 16:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Reginus
Originally by: Loraine Gess
Edited by: Loraine Gess on 05/06/2011 09:08:16
Originally by: Aamrr
lol etc.


Not that lol... the boosters do exist. He'd just have to shell out a ridiculous amount of isk for one and wait for one to become available. Market price was 1.9b last I checked.


I think I saw one for 1.6b in The Forge last night. But in any case, you could replace the booster with a Gistum C-type if you didn't have the money for it.



ugh


Gistum c-types are also incredibly rare escalation only drops, b-type is what you're looking for.


Goose99
Posted - 2011.06.05 17:34:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 05/06/2011 17:49:09
Originally by: Reginus
Edited by: Reginus on 05/06/2011 16:05:28
Edited by: Reginus on 05/06/2011 03:02:44
Cap stable CNR:

[Raven Navy Issue, Permatanker]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

Gistum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field
Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field
Domination Target Painter

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Paradise Cruise Missile
[empty high slot]

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Garde II x3

DPS is 789
Tanks 552 dps (with 66% em, 33% thermal, and full Crystals.)


This fails really really hard. 2 bil booster? Full crystal set? Filling drone bay up with 3 Gardes? Less EFT warrioring...

Originally by: Tenzeck
Edited by: Tenzeck on 05/06/2011 01:14:49
Originally by: Hormone1971
I am comparing it to the Golem (which i love). i am yet to see a better caldari ship for the missions i run (angel space and even amarr).
Perhaps i just stick with it?


Stick with it, then. It's a great ship.

I'd use the Tengu for some missions and the Golem for others. In fact, the last time I ran missions I was doing that with Nightmare/Tengu, but I was in Amarr space.

Yes, the Nightmare is worth training for if you're going to do missions in Amarr space.

In fact, I fly the Tengu (HML), Nightmare (beam) and Golem (torp).

I have run them all in a lot of missions, and the three of them together basically cover you in any mission you could want to do. However, I used to mission in Amarr space and have since moved on to doing WH space and Incursions.

I used the Golem a lot when I ran missions in Gallente space, but I have found no use for the Golem in Amarr space, W-space or Incursions. Some people bring a Golem to vanguard OTA sites, though I think the Nightmare is a far superior option. I now stick to the Tengu and Nightmare. I am also working on the Loki currently.

Edit: I forgot to add that as far as the damage for the Tengu goes, you should be breaking 700dps without implants or rigs. If not, it's your skills or fit that is the problem. A Tengu isn't going to come close to a properly fit torp Golem against battleships and BCs, but if you're up against a lot of frigates or have to move around a lot, the Tengu will be faster. Worlds Collide is a great Tengu mission, for example.


It's situational. You can't compare a 700 dps hml tengu with 1k dps torp Golem, the tengu has ~120km range compared to ~45km. Ham tengu gives 900 missile dps, compared to Golem's 1k torp dps at similar ranges. Tengu does come close to Golem if you compare apples to apples. Hams hit smaller targets far better, with less tp support, and is far faster to get into range. The mission will have to be very BS heavy for Golem to blitz faster.

Tenzeck
Posted - 2011.06.05 19:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Goose99
It's situational. You can't compare a 700 dps hml tengu with 1k dps torp Golem, the tengu has ~120km range compared to ~45km. Ham tengu gives 900 missile dps, compared to Golem's 1k torp dps at similar ranges. Tengu does come close to Golem if you compare apples to apples. Hams hit smaller targets far better, with less tp support, and is far faster to get into range. The mission will have to be very BS heavy for Golem to blitz faster.



I wasn't comparing them directly. I said having that range of ships covers you in pretty much any mission situation in EVE. I assumed that made it plain that I was fitting 3 ships to cover a range of roles rather than all to fill the same one.

The purpose of my comparison was to explain when the situation called for a certain fit.

As far as the battleship heavy vs. smaller ship heavy missions as that relates to comparing the Golem and Tengu in general, I believe I did say the exact same thing in my own post as well, except I'd lower it to BCs as well as golems hit them fully and do a lot more than the 1K dps you're suggesting. Also, it depends on what kind of mission you're doing, as the 25% drop in damage when the Tengu isn't using kinetic is not insignificant. :)

I EFT'd up my old fit and it's telling me 1192 + 158 drones = 1350 DPS for the golem. This fit requires 3 TPs but still maintains a 550 DPS tank to Sansha. Obviously it tanks better when it doesn't have to go against EM.

Voith
Posted - 2011.06.05 19:17:00 - [25]
 

Most of these setups are failures, and are guaranteed to lose your ship.

Remember that for Bloods you need to over Cap, because they Neut.

A Deadspace booster and a faction boost amp is what you need let it be cap stable. You don't need more than a 500 DPS tank for 90% of missions. The other ones just don't AFK in them. Warp out.


Tenzeck
Posted - 2011.06.05 19:20:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Voith
Most of these setups are failures, and are guaranteed to lose your ship.




There was only a single one posted on this thread. People just keep quoting it to laugh.

General Trajan
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.06.05 20:37:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: General Trajan on 05/06/2011 20:39:04
Originally by: Hormone1971

I have missioned in amarr space in the past and i must admit, range wins, sansha hurt close.


wut? sansha are the easiest rats to deal with in a golem or any ship for that matter. idk how on earth yours is fitted, but what tha hell here's my yard bird:

[go get em Golem. blood/sansha]
HIGHS
Siege Missile Launcher II
Siege Missile Launcher II
Siege Missile Launcher II
Siege Missile Launcher II
Whatev
Whatev
Whatev

MIDS
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Pith A-Type Photon Scattering Field
Domination Target Painter
Domination Target Painter
Domination Target Painter

LOWS
Caldari navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari navy Ballistic Control System

RIGS
Large Hydraulic Bay Thruster II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thruster II

with all +5% hardwires in my mission JC"s head and this thing screams through every L4 i come across in amarr space that i use this ship for.

Deo ExMachina
Posted - 2011.06.06 13:21:00 - [28]
 

I have tried the golem and the cnr and i must say i like the golem, you fit one with a 100mn afterburn and the range is not a real problem but implants are a must. its all in how much isk you wanna spend the golem cost alot more to get right but in the end it will out shine the cnr (but you gotta spend the isk)

NoNah
Posted - 2011.06.06 15:00:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Goose99

This fails really really hard. 2 bil booster? Full crystal set? Filling drone bay up with 3 Gardes? Less EFT warrioring...

3 sentry drones is pretty much standard on CNR's these days, and it's not filling up, as you have 100m3 drone bay.

Quote:

It's situational. You can't compare a 700 dps hml tengu with 1k dps torp Golem, the tengu has ~120km range compared to ~45km. Ham tengu gives 900 missile dps, compared to Golem's 1k torp dps at similar ranges. Tengu does come close to Golem if you compare apples to apples. Hams hit smaller targets far better, with less tp support, and is far faster to get into range. The mission will have to be very BS heavy for Golem to blitz faster.


Granted a golem has noticably more than 1k total dps, if it didn't everyone would be flying CNRs who have just that. The tengu has issues handling frigs, especially with hams(but also with HML's) due to the lack of drones. The one advantage the tengu does have for blitzing over CNR/Golem is it's mobility both in warp, entering warp and between warps which is very very handy now that you can MWD within missions.

Goose99
Posted - 2011.06.06 23:10:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Goose99

This fails really really hard. 2 bil booster? Full crystal set? Filling drone bay up with 3 Gardes? Less EFT warrioring...

3 sentry drones is pretty much standard on CNR's these days, and it's not filling up, as you have 100m3 drone bay.

Quote:

It's situational. You can't compare a 700 dps hml tengu with 1k dps torp Golem, the tengu has ~120km range compared to ~45km. Ham tengu gives 900 missile dps, compared to Golem's 1k torp dps at similar ranges. Tengu does come close to Golem if you compare apples to apples. Hams hit smaller targets far better, with less tp support, and is far faster to get into range. The mission will have to be very BS heavy for Golem to blitz faster.


Granted a golem has noticably more than 1k total dps, if it didn't everyone would be flying CNRs who have just that. The tengu has issues handling frigs, especially with hams(but also with HML's) due to the lack of drones. The one advantage the tengu does have for blitzing over CNR/Golem is it's mobility both in warp, entering warp and between warps which is very very handy now that you can MWD within missions.


Torp dps from Golem is 1k faction amd 1.2k t2 rage. I'm assuming the "noticeably more than 1k" is again with 3 Gardes factored in? Tengus actually has no issue with frigs whatsoever. That's its strength, as opposed to BS sized rats where applied dps from BS come closer to paper dps. Hml one volley 30k bounty elite frig rats at 3 sec rop. Ham takes two volleys, but at a faster 2 second rop. Either way it's far faster than drones on those same frigs.


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