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Lexxxii
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:28:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Raid'En
how about a grace period like you've done with avatars ?

would be easier to accept if we had a period where we can choose to use it or not, and so prepare well for it, when it will be mandatory.
i don't think allowing people to stil have old system / black screen for 1 or 2 months after CQ release would be a big issue for you.
will apport less whine, more time for you to optimize performances, and more time for us to accept it, while still alowing you to have direct feedback from others people, and still way enough feedback from those guys who'll take it a bit later.


Don't see any point in this, it will just be a pain in the ass in a couple of months instead of now. Prefer not to have the pain at all tbh.

Azhpol
Gallente
Casa Del Wombat
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:32:00 - [92]
 

Edited by: Azhpol on 26/05/2011 11:40:00
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Constantinus Maximus
Originally by: IsTheOpOver
Originally by: Tres Farmer

Start your own company, make a rather successful niche game, grow from 14 to 600 employees and do all of this without screwing some things up somewhere.



They actually found 600 people to work for beer?



ROFL! Funny cause it's true.

CCP pay is about the lowest you could find.




yeah 45$ an hour is terrible pay
its entry level for a dev. You get the degree and you can expect that much just about as soon as you get out of school(even in this economy, if you can find a job at all). CCPs devs could go make much more elsewhere, if they actually wanted to.

Also, no one should expect an actual developer(vs the community devs we usually see) to have any kind of social skills or ability to empathize with other humans, especially people who are tinkering with their precious code. A good dev has a mind so different from the mainstream that normal people don't make any sense to them. Admittedly, thats why devs for other companies are typically not allowed to post to the forums Laughing

True story from someone who was a WoW GM... One day Michael Morhaime came in to a new GM call center to see how everyone was doing, and someone convinced him to take a player petition. The petition was basically a whine about some mechanic or other. He reads over it, and the tells the player that its his game, he will do what he wants with it, and perma bans them.

This is the the president and CEO of Blizzard, most successful MMO in the world. Why would you expect a game known for its hostility towards any kind of kindness to be more friendly towards hacking their client(and thats exactly what this fix is, a hack).

Get over it, or get out. Its CCPs game, they are going to do what they want with it.

edit: not saying that I support forced CQ, I don't care either way. Just saying whining and threatening to quit isn't the answer, and imo should get you your wish of not dealing with EvE

ceaon
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:40:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: mkint
Originally by: CCP Atropos

As for whether we should or not Incarna can be optional, well that's a corporate decision that's made by people higher up the food chain than me. I just don't want people mucking about with the stuff files, because when it inevitably comes to patching, 6 months down the line, someone will come to these forums complaining that they can't patch after they chose to voluntarily delete that file.



Also... he's not talking about deleting the file, he's talking about denying read access (but not write access.) Would that actually break the patching process?

i dint test it but i bet that the patching is done by system user and not the normal user, if that is not the case you can patch the game whit admin user and play the game whit normal user that dont have read permission on the file
i will need to make some tests about this


Azhpol
Gallente
Casa Del Wombat
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:42:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: mkint
Originally by: CCP Atropos

As for whether we should or not Incarna can be optional, well that's a corporate decision that's made by people higher up the food chain than me. I just don't want people mucking about with the stuff files, because when it inevitably comes to patching, 6 months down the line, someone will come to these forums complaining that they can't patch after they chose to voluntarily delete that file.



Also... he's not talking about deleting the file, he's talking about denying read access (but not write access.) Would that actually break the patching process?

Yes, because the patcher checksums all the files, and has to be able to read said file to make sure its valid.

Believe me, it already takes long enough without being confused, I just had to do it twice on a flash drive to make a portable install ugh

mkint
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:46:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Azhpol
Originally by: mkint
Originally by: CCP Atropos

As for whether we should or not Incarna can be optional, well that's a corporate decision that's made by people higher up the food chain than me. I just don't want people mucking about with the stuff files, because when it inevitably comes to patching, 6 months down the line, someone will come to these forums complaining that they can't patch after they chose to voluntarily delete that file.



Also... he's not talking about deleting the file, he's talking about denying read access (but not write access.) Would that actually break the patching process?

Yes, because the patcher checksums all the files, and has to be able to read said file to make sure its valid.

Believe me, it already takes long enough without being confused, I just had to do it twice on a flash drive to make a portable install ugh

I thought about the checksum. Does it check after it downloads, or after it installs? And I wasn't sure if denying read access denies write access as well (for some reason it's in my head that it does.)

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:46:00 - [96]
 

if you dont make this optional ( loading CQ / Walking in stations ) then people are gonna try and find ways around it.

Sure, it might only be a small percentage of the pilots ( 10% max? ) but compare that to the number of pilots who disable sound in eve?

Why is disabling sound in eve ok but disabling a visual only feature that has no game impact not?

I would argue that having sound is extremely important as it gives your senses another level of depth when surviving in EVE. Way more useful then having to spend time to do the same task in CQ you could do with a mouse click before.

San Severina
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.26 11:50:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: ShadowandLight
if you dont make this optional ( loading CQ / Walking in stations ) then people are gonna try and find ways around it.

Sure, it might only be a small percentage of the pilots ( 10% max? ) but compare that to the number of pilots who disable sound in eve?

Why is disabling sound in eve ok but disabling a visual only feature that has no game impact not?

I would argue that having sound is extremely important as it gives your senses another level of depth when surviving in EVE. Way more useful then having to spend time to do the same task in CQ you could do with a mouse click before.


Good point, I'm not sure CCP will see it that way but I agree for what it's worth Wink

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.05.26 12:26:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: ShadowandLight

Why is disabling sound in eve ok but disabling a visual only feature that has no game impact not?


when will you people get it?

BECAUSE THEY WANT FREE BETATESTERS FOR THEIR UPCOMING MMO TITLES' GRAPHICS ENGINE.

Yakov Pavlov
Posted - 2011.05.26 12:28:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
[
I was trying to add some brevity to the discussion, but since you can't please everyone all the time, I'll go back to my bridge and simply not engage at all Neutral


Just goes to show that CCP's default is not engaging with customer feedback except to troll. And some still think the problem is with the userbase.

salty Milk
Posted - 2011.05.26 12:29:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Originally by: ShadowandLight

Why is disabling sound in eve ok but disabling a visual only feature that has no game impact not?


when will you people get it?

BECAUSE THEY WANT FREE BETATESTERS FOR THEIR UPCOMING MMO TITLES' GRAPHICS ENGINE.


free?
last i checked i was a lot cheaper than free

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.05.26 13:30:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Or I could just add it to the manifest so that it's validated at startup... Twisted Evil
Not funny. Rolling Eyes

In fact, a rather appalling display of either ignorance or callous disregard for the wishes of your clients.

Someone just found a solution to a problem you people apparently couldn't (or wouldn't) solve, but which has been asked for by quite a few people over the last year, and you joke about it and implicitly threaten people who would want to make use of this improvement. What's next? Are you going to make the removal of cached files and logs an offence?

How about you guys just take the hint and start giving people the options they want for how they want to play the game…?

Why is that not funny? Confused

As for the last part.. did the CSM raise the issue when they were in Iceland last week? What came out of this?
I mean, if 'quite a few people' want this so badly, there for sure had been a proposal in the Assembly Hall with 'quite a few' supporters so that the CSM brought up this topic, no?

If all of this didn't happen.. sry. Try better next time.

You must be an idiot. CCP-started feedback threads for CQ on duality are full of these kind of requests. There's been other numerous threads dedicated to this issue. Etc. The problem and the solution are both visible and obvious to anyone interested, and CCP should be interested, rabid fanboyz notwithstanding.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.26 14:11:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Tres Farmer
*snip*
Why is that not funny? Confused

As for the last part.. did the CSM raise the issue when they were in Iceland last week? What came out of this?
I mean, if 'quite a few people' want this so badly, there for sure had been a proposal in the Assembly Hall with 'quite a few' supporters so that the CSM brought up this topic, no?

If all of this didn't happen.. sry. Try better next time.

You must be an idiot. CCP-started feedback threads for CQ on duality are full of these kind of requests. There's been other numerous threads dedicated to this issue. Etc. The problem and the solution are both visible and obvious to anyone interested, and CCP should be interested, rabid fanboyz notwithstanding.

If I'm an idiot, then you guys all have a hissy-fit over stuff that is still in beta phase..
If there are threads demanding the option to opt-out of it and the CSM told it CCP last week and CCP got the message, fine for you. Just wait for it.

Also, I can't see what so bad about having your head in the hangar-picture in the future and seeing your ship from a diff angle?
If your comp needs longer than 30secs to load this, then you really got other problems..

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.26 14:32:00 - [103]
 

You know what, this game is not worth it anymore.

ceaon
Posted - 2011.05.26 17:16:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: ceaon on 26/05/2011 17:27:00
1) use this before you patch le game
how to give read permission to a certain user group
CACLS omg le HDD:\eve\daulity\resInteriorRacial.stuff /e /p users:r
replace omg le HDD:\eve\daulity whit your folder path

you can save this on a bat file (i dint need to run like admin but i got win7 configured on my style)


2) use this after le patch is done and you dont need to update le eve client
this script will remove ALL PERMISSIONS for the usergroup users for the file in question, all permissions for this usergroup are nuked from orbit :P also you can save this in a bat file Laughing

CACLS omg le HDD:\eve\daulity\resInteriorRacial.stuff /e /r users

for more go in here http://support.microsoft.com/kb/162786
anyone whit better skill that i have can improve this ??



Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.26 17:47:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 26/05/2011 17:49:24
Originally by: CCP Atropos
As for whether we should or not Incarna can be optional, well that's a corporate decision that's made by people higher up the food chain than me.
Well, then you don't need to take it personally and it's those people who are ignorant/callous.
Quote:
I just don't want people mucking about with the stuff files, because when it inevitably comes to patching, 6 months down the line, someone will come to these forums complaining that they can't patch after they chose to voluntarily delete that file.
And that's understandable, but if the users choose to make custom arrangements with their files, it's really up to them to deal with the problems it causes.

But they key point here is this: if not loading the CQ is a simple matter of deleting or read-protecting a single file, then there is quite literally no excuse not to make the CQ optional. There is no "extra work", no "duplicated effort", no "dual code paths" — nothing. Simply don't load the file.

This is the message that needs to be escalated in your organisation: there is no excuse.
Originally by: ShadowandLight
if you dont make this optional ( loading CQ / Walking in stations ) then people are gonna try and find ways around it.

Sure, it might only be a small percentage of the pilots ( 10% max? ) but compare that to the number of pilots who disable sound in eve?

Why is disabling sound in eve ok but disabling a visual only feature that has no game impact not?

I would argue that having sound is extremely important as it gives your senses another level of depth when surviving in EVE. Way more useful then having to spend time to do the same task in CQ you could do with a mouse click before.
Very apt comparison (now watch them remove the option to turn off sound… Laughing).

Armand Vos
Posted - 2011.05.26 18:09:00 - [106]
 

To all those people who are attacking the devs. Firstly, I know you're going to either ignore this or flame me and to be perfectly frank, I honestly don't give a damn. I'm voicing my support for CCP and the hardworking devs who don't deserve to be insulted by you half-brained twits (Not to be confused with those who offer constructive criticism, though few and far between they may be). There's a simple logic path all of you haters can follow.

If you don't like the direction EVE is going, quit.

If you don't want to quit but can't handle the new graphical implementations, get a better PC.

If you can't afford a better PC, get a job.

If you can't get a job, you probably shouldn't be draining your bank account by playing EVE anyway (If you're not plexing).


All in all, get with the times! Games improve and require better rigs to run them, this has been a constant for the past 35 years. If my rig can't handle Incarna, am I going to whine about it? No, I'm going to save my money and upgrade my rig when I can afford it. If you can't handle this, find another hobby, gaming isn't for you.

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.05.26 18:17:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

Also, I can't see what so bad about having your head in the hangar-picture in the future and seeing your ship from a diff angle?


For me personally it is being forced to do something that is pretty stupid (in-game) every single time I dock in a station. There is also the feeling that this is being done purely for usage metrics' sake, with no regard to customer relations.

For many others it is either a hardware performance issue, which most likely will not be alleviated by code optimization, or a general EVE gameplay philosophy.

In all of these cases a very simple fix is required.

What's weird is the almost religious stubbornness with which many on this forum are expressing their opposition to a simple option to toggle the new feature.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.05.26 18:18:00 - [108]
 

I found a way to not load CQ.

just tape a piece of paper over your monitor so the neo com and station serve buttons are still there!

even if the CQ is still loading the ui will not lag so. why not!

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.26 18:31:00 - [109]
 

I am a little confused why you'd say it was a management decision to allow/deny the Incarna toggle.
Surely if it's technically feasable, there's no good reason not to do it?

Please explain if there is a good technical reason not to include it, or if there is any good reason not to allow players to either load the previous station spinning environment, or a blank screen with Neocom (or both!)
Because at the moment, it doesn't make any sense to not have done this already.

ceaon
Posted - 2011.05.26 18:37:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: ceaon on 26/05/2011 18:43:20

Originally by: Shandir
I am a little confused why you'd say it was a management decision to allow/deny the Incarna toggle.
Surely if it's technically feasable, there's no good reason not to do it?

Please explain if there is a good technical reason not to include it, or if there is any good reason not to allow players to either load the previous station spinning environment, or a blank screen with Neocom (or both!)
Because at the moment, it doesn't make any sense to not have done this already.

/put le tin foil hat
it has to do whit propaganda (AKA PR) "our latest expansion is so ****ing great that a impressive amount of players are using this expansion the most used expansion ever in eve and mmo history, give us awards"
le most popular forced expansion prize goes to CCP

also do you think that teams that work on this crap will get the balls to go at ccp CEO and say look only x% amount of players use this LOL feature where we spend XXXX amount of money, if there is a way to disable that is a way to measure the popularity and some ppl at CCP are afraid of that, self preservation interest > interest to make things on the optimal way


mkint
Posted - 2011.05.26 18:45:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: ceaon
Edited by: ceaon on 26/05/2011 18:43:20

Originally by: Shandir
I am a little confused why you'd say it was a management decision to allow/deny the Incarna toggle.
Surely if it's technically feasable, there's no good reason not to do it?

Please explain if there is a good technical reason not to include it, or if there is any good reason not to allow players to either load the previous station spinning environment, or a blank screen with Neocom (or both!)
Because at the moment, it doesn't make any sense to not have done this already.

/put le tin foil hat
it has to do whit propaganda (AKA PR) "our latest expansion is so ****ing great that a impressive amount of players are using this expansion the most used expansion ever in eve and mmo history, give us awards"
le most popular forced expansion prize goes to CCP

also do you think that teams that work on this crap will get the balls to go at ccp CEO and say look only x% amount of players use this LOL feature where we spend XXXX amount of money, if there is a way to disable that is a way to measure the popularity and some ppl at CCP are afraid of that, self preservation interest > interest to make things on the optimal way




hmm... you think [email protected] is the right email address to make sure the idea goes to the right person?

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.05.26 19:05:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Yes I'm slightly worried how this entire incarna station will run on my ATI Radeon 2600 Pro. The character editor was quite a pain already...



It runs fine, I have a lesser version of that card and it runs well.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.05.26 19:47:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Tippia

But they key point here is this: if not loading the CQ is a simple matter of deleting or read-protecting a single file, then there is quite literally no excuse not to make the CQ optional. There is no "extra work", no "duplicated effort", no "dual code paths" — nothing. Simply don't load the file.

This is the message that needs to be escalated in your organisation: there is no excuse.



Politics are not just a 0.0 thing. Plenty of reasons to force a redundant feature on end user's throats.

Could be they want to mass test the engine for WoD.
Could be they want to satisfy corporate objectives.
Could be a director needs to justify the spent budget with usage figures.

After all, look at EvE Wast... ehm EvE Gate. Another slammed-in-throat thing, someone has to claim project success and go ahead with his corporate career.

Also, how fun would it for CCP to read on some MMO review site: "many years in the work feature turned off on day one by 87% of the playerbase: what a waste of time and money".

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.26 19:53:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Also, how fun would it for CCP to read on some MMO review site: "many years in the work feature turned off on day one by 87% of the playerbase: what a waste of time and money".
I call that "a learning experience." Wink

Yakov Pavlov
Posted - 2011.05.26 20:04:00 - [115]
 

I believe CCP's learning experience has been ongoing in re sub #'s, desparate PLEX schemes to generate new accounts notwithstanding.

Crias Taylor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.26 20:24:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Crias Taylor on 26/05/2011 20:27:49
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Originally by: Aurora Fire
Originally by: ceaon
Edited by: ceaon on 25/05/2011 19:28:29
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
Could that be classed as client modification?

no i dint did a modification on permissions for a user account in my own OS win 7 is not owned/developed by CCP

If i was a dev wanting to screw with you i would write:
You remotely modified a client by not allowing it to do what it was supposed to do.
Smile

Or I could just add it to the manifest so that it's validated at startup... Twisted Evil


Are we talking about the manifest MSI uses cause I'm going to ignore the "you joking" part of this and say, "And?"

ceaon
Posted - 2011.05.26 20:25:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: mkint

hmm... you think [email protected] is the right email address to make sure the idea goes to the right person?


a tip when you try to guess a email
put only one email on TO field the rest of guess email put them on BCC Very Happy dont use CC

Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
Posted - 2011.05.27 06:09:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
Originally by: Lost Hamster

Actually, could you please remove the start.ini from the manifest?
I'm behind a firewall, and it would be easier for me to change the file, and not using some workaround to reach the eve server.
Thanks in advance.

Why do you need to modify it?

I have set up an SSL proxy, and originally I wanted to route a different port to the tunnel, which would come out on the correct port on the tunnel end.

Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.05.27 06:35:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: CCP Atropos
inevitably comes to patching, 6 months down the line


ROFL!

Still waiting for 6 month interation on FW from 2008.


Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
Posted - 2011.05.27 06:38:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Armand Vos
If you don't like the direction EVE is going, quit.



^^ CCP is completely full of ****.


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