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blankseplocked [Proposal] Skill points remap but very limited.
 
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Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:15:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cyberus on 21/05/2011 14:33:21
I know this has been brogth before by difrent players, but i want to share my idea how i think it could be done.

Most of you probably know all those discussions with all positive and negative responces and the questions why want and dont remap those skills. So i get strigth to the point.

Idea is:


1) The skillpoint remap will be ONLY avalible once for character lifetime.

2) Maximum to 10 (ten) skills can be remaped, so you have to choise carefully wich skill you do or do not remap.

P.S. The number i have post is seems resonable since there is much more skills some would be glad to remap, though this is just an number i think is fair and ofc it will be to CSM and CCP to make desigion what exact numbers will be taken if the idea will be pushed trough.

Discuss!

Mystical Might
Amarr
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:32:00 - [2]
 

I support the general idea of a skillpoint remap.

Holland Galebi
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:36:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Cyberus
Discuss!
My suggestion:

1) No skillpoint remap avalible.

2) Maximum to 381 skills can be trained, so you have to choose wisely which skill you do or do not train.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:43:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 21/05/2011 14:43:22


I think it would be better to not give the option to have any skill remaps. Reasons being it is totally unnecessary, since we don't have a skill cap, it promotes FOTM chasing and diminishes the value of high specialisation and variation within the game.

All of that applies to your particular variant, but some to a lesser degree. The problem is that your idea creates new issues. First being that you provide no reasoning for limiting it to once in a lifetime. You just want to get your foot in the door and do anything to get the mechanic implemented in some form at all costs. That isn't a good way to design game mechanics. You have to specify what it is that you're trying to fix or improve with your change, then we discuss the issue and finally the devs get to decide if it's a good fix or if the issue even needs fixing.

Your solution also creates new problems, since people will **** things up with remaps and it will cause a constant whine of request asking for additional remaps. That is a problem especially for you, since if you ignore their whines, we can ignore your proposal, because it basicly amounts to the same thing. So the only way to do this is to either not allow it at all, since it isn't necessary and is damaging in the EVE skill system or just say "**** it" to all the objections and implement a system that allows periodic remaps.

Personally I'm firmly in the no remaps ever -camp, since it really isn't necessary with the EVE skill system and has strong negatives attached to it, so I won't support skill remaps in any form.

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:47:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Cyberus on 21/05/2011 14:47:02
Originally by: Holland Galebi
Originally by: Cyberus
Discuss!
My suggestion:

1) No skillpoint remap avalible.

2) Maximum to 381 skills can be trained, so you have to choose wisely which skill you do or do not train.


Good point! But sadly enough not everyone so WISE as you are.

1st) I want to point you out that some players did not have back in 2003-2004 all those shiny guides, evemons and any other career tutorials what you have now. They has to lern hard way.

2nd) The things have been difrent before. Eve has evolved to difrent angle, some professions become uterly useless so some of the skills simply wont be used by players never again, thats why i think it will be fair to give them just a small trade off.

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.21 14:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 21/05/2011 14:43:22


I think it would be better to not give the option to have any skill remaps. Reasons being it is totally unnecessary, since we don't have a skill cap, it promotes FOTM chasing and diminishes the value of high specialisation and variation within the game.

All of that applies to your particular variant, but some to a lesser degree. The problem is that your idea creates new issues. First being that you provide no reasoning for limiting it to once in a lifetime. You just want to get your foot in the door and do anything to get the mechanic implemented in some form at all costs. That isn't a good way to design game mechanics. You have to specify what it is that you're trying to fix or improve with your change, then we discuss the issue and finally the devs get to decide if it's a good fix or if the issue even needs fixing.

Your solution also creates new problems, since people will **** things up with remaps and it will cause a constant whine of request asking for additional remaps. That is a problem especially for you, since if you ignore their whines, we can ignore your proposal, because it basicly amounts to the same thing. So the only way to do this is to either not allow it at all, since it isn't necessary and is damaging in the EVE skill system or just say "**** it" to all the objections and implement a system that allows periodic remaps.

Personally I'm firmly in the no remaps ever -camp, since it really isn't necessary with the EVE skill system and has strong negatives attached to it, so I won't support skill remaps in any form.


Some of the point i have posted just above on the reply for another fellow pilot

Goose99
Posted - 2011.05.21 16:50:00 - [7]
 


Holland Galebi
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.21 17:24:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Cyberus
1st) I want to point you out that some players did not have back in 2003-2004 all those shiny guides, evemons and any other career tutorials what you have now. They has to lern hard way.
But wait. The people won't receive a guide 'Which skills and where I should remap to win the game' with this remap. And they will make mistakes. So what's next? Another 'once per life' remap?

Originally by: Cyberus
2nd) The things have been difrent before. Eve has evolved to difrent angle, some professions become uterly useless so some of the skills simply wont be used by players never again, thats why i think it will be fair to give them just a small trade off.
And the things will become different again six years from now. And some stuff (like T1 ships lol) will be useless. So what's next? Another 'once per life' remap?

Ki'Lynn Onata
Posted - 2011.05.21 18:38:00 - [9]
 

I cant agree, choices made should be choices worn.

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.22 13:34:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Holland Galebi
Originally by: Cyberus
1st) I want to point you out that some players did not have back in 2003-2004 all those shiny guides, evemons and any other career tutorials what you have now. They has to lern hard way.
But wait. The people won't receive a guide 'Which skills and where I should remap to win the game' with this remap. And they will make mistakes. So what's next? Another 'once per life' remap?

Originally by: Cyberus
2nd) The things have been difrent before. Eve has evolved to difrent angle, some professions become uterly useless so some of the skills simply wont be used by players never again, thats why i think it will be fair to give them just a small trade off.
And the things will become different again six years from now. And some stuff (like T1 ships lol) will be useless. So what's next? Another 'once per life' remap?



1) This is has nothing to do with making mistakes but getting rid off completely useless skillpoints. One of the best examples wich was contineusly discussed at forum is mining and all related skills to it.

2)Once your chare gets older it is true that t1 hull ships become useless to you, though skill requrment (like frigat/cruiser) for t2-t3 hulls will be not useless at all. So good sp investment.

3) Afraid that your shiny ship/guns will be nerfed/chaged next patch? Do what i did and cross train weapons/ships skills. I'm not limited now to any gun or ship.

4) There is still skills that uterly useless now and never will be used anymore. Lot of chages by playerbase (bots/macro) and CCP (easy acseseble stuuf for new players) made those skills waste of time.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.22 13:48:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 23/05/2011 02:09:56

I don't get it, yes, it was wasted time, but why do you think you are entitled to get it back? People do all sorts of mistakes in this game, its part of living and learning.

Once per lifetime is completely arbitrary and silly. It will cause more problems than it aims to solve.
And I don't see any problem with people getting stuck with their own poor choices in skills to invest in. Would we want to give refunds to people who accidentally buy skillbooks of skills they already have trained? I'm sure that happens a lot too.

Rico Minali
Gallente
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.05.22 14:05:00 - [12]
 

No SP remaps. Yep, I have skills ill never use, and no, I dont agree with remaps. Why? Because everyone makes mistakes, that is life and lifes challenges. If you dont have to live with your mistakes, then what is the point of trying harder?

But anyway, its a no from me.

Xilian
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.25 13:29:00 - [13]
 

Yes! I very much support this idea. I started the day eve was released, without any clue as to what i should train. Made several stupid mistakes, which i have done my best to make up for later on.
5-10 skills or so would be great to remap.

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.25 13:42:00 - [14]
 

Ah, the foot in the door approach.
No remaps. This has been discussed to death and remarkably few players are in favour.

Why would you need to remap, you can *always* learn the skill you want to now, there is no skill point cap, skills do not become harder to train as you get more SP, in fact - with expensive implants they get slightly easier.

This isn't even a matter of choice, since you can easily train multiple skill trees, and you can choose more skills at any time. It's simply a matter of getting the skills you want *right now*.

There are few 'wrong choices' in skill training, as (almost) every skill has a purpose of some kind, and adds to your options or your effectiveness, so work with what you've chosen, and work towards what you want.

Cyberus - what skill is it you have that you have decided you won't ever need or use? What skill is so important that you must have it immediately?

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.25 21:43:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Shandir
Ah, the foot in the door approach.
No remaps. This has been discussed to death and remarkably few players are in favour.

Why would you need to remap, you can *always* learn the skill you want to now, there is no skill point cap, skills do not become harder to train as you get more SP, in fact - with expensive implants they get slightly easier.

This isn't even a matter of choice, since you can easily train multiple skill trees, and you can choose more skills at any time. It's simply a matter of getting the skills you want *right now*.

There are few 'wrong choices' in skill training, as (almost) every skill has a purpose of some kind, and adds to your options or your effectiveness, so work with what you've chosen, and work towards what you want.

Cyberus - what skill is it you have that you have decided you won't ever need or use? What skill is so important that you must have it immediately?


There is no important skills to me atm since i'm prety good trained for almost all ships and all guns in game 101 m sp atm (on subcapital ships).

If you realy want to know wich skills i will/could trade of for some sp.

Well ther is actualy no so much at all. (some mining and related ships to it)
it is even not so big amount at all but as you know by you self mining profession since the 2003 become utely useless and to players even with 6 months or 1 year training is simply not usefull skill anymore simply because any other activity in the game can and will generate you better income then sucking rocks in belts.

I have even some production skills as well but it is not my main activity with this acount but i WONT trade for sp this skills because i use from time to time those so that makes then usefull even if i realy use it once at 3-6 months. But it is simply nothing to be compared with mining skills and anything related to it.

Blame CCP or blame those bot/macro alliances who made those skills complete waste of SP invested in to it.

While lots says mistakeble skills training they are wrong, there is few to none mistakable skills ( like core skills or frigat/cruiser hulls ) those are needet skills for advanced versions hulls so those are not mistake thats why i cross trained all hulls and weapons in game and can switch to any subcap ship or weapon and always glad i have trained those but some of the other skills its just useless nothing more ( atleast they become useless ).

Alias 6322A
Posted - 2011.05.27 15:03:00 - [16]
 

No Skill Remaps ever.

The general argument for a single remap would maybe apply to a new player who needs a quick shift in skills to enjoy the game...but that undermines the whole foundation of EVE's gameplay to begin with. No skill is useless for starters. Secondly, a single remap would be limited to 60 days from creation of the character - thus only new characters could take advantage of it for its intended reason.

As was said earlier, you're just trying to get your foot in the door with a simple idea of one remap. Again, EVE's entire foundation is built on the skill-system and its permanence. By allowing skill remaps you significantly reduce the lifespan of the game - i.e. people will quit earlier from boredom because they experience too much of the game too quickly. While this wouldn't necessarily affect a 2+ year character who has already seen most of what the game will offer (the rest being the sandbox experience), this change could have disastrous consequences on new player recruitment.

New players are fickle - what sells EVE is the hardcore gameplay of 'when you lose it, it's gone' and the skill system that paces the game: getting to even a tech I battleship is an achievement for everyone. Most people have battleships, but what makes it an achievement is that you spent the time to get there (and the isk). If you remove the pacing of the skill system, you remove the sense of accomplishment that EVE provides, and most games don't. IT'S A BIG DEAL WHEN YOU GET THAT FIRST CAPITAL - partially because of cost (lots of effort for most) but also the amount of time it took to get there. This is the EVE experience - an experience tailored to your goals and aspirations, not a structured system of point A to point B that can be 'redone' at a whim.

TL;DR Remapping of Skills would destroy EVE gameplay and should never be considered. All skills are useful, so you can only get better with time: thus, if you messed up your skills: tough and start learning the right ones. From Day 1 you're able to make isk and get things done, so you can't say your skills are so wrong you're useless.

crimson fire
Posted - 2011.05.27 16:20:00 - [17]
 

How about a remap big enough for players to leave the fail gallente behind

Vaju Katru
Posted - 2011.05.27 16:44:00 - [18]
 

Pandora Box.

No.

Icantspellwell
Posted - 2011.05.27 17:34:00 - [19]
 

I support the idea of a skillpoint remap. As a compromise how about being able to reimburse for half of the sp that you are put into it.

Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.05.28 17:32:00 - [20]
 

Quote:
1) The skillpoint remap will be ONLY avalible once for character lifetime.


I just boldet and underlined to some of you who cant or probably simply dont want to read whole idea from begin to the end.




Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.29 05:23:00 - [21]
 

omg, this is actually well thought out and interesting idea ....... NOT

Rawbone
Gallente
S3MINAL FLUID
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.05.29 15:37:00 - [22]
 

Todays "Once in a lifetime" is tomorrows: "Precedent has already been set." I am against this in any form. As you can see, I'm gallente. I didn't have a guide that said train minmatar but I'd rather live with my wasted training than WoWify Eve.

Dopesick
Minmatar
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.03 22:48:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Dopesick on 03/06/2011 22:52:28
I miss back in the day when you could choose your skills in the character creation. Now I'm stuck with (another character)that has mining skill but is training for pvp. I'd like to be able to retract the mining skills and apply them to a pvp skill, since it (the mining skill) was thrown in my skill pool at creation.

edit: clarification

Rer Eirikr
Gallente
Clearly Compensating
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.03 23:18:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Rer Eirikr on 03/06/2011 23:25:04
Originally by: Vaju Katru
Pandora Box.

No.


^^ QFT

I'm a Gallente pilot, and I'm damn proud of my choice. Sure I had to spend time training other races to be overall more effective in EVE, but when I got in my first Abbadon, T2 Drake, etc. I felt a sense of accomplishment.

Suddenly making a "once in a lifetime reset" would have diminished that greatly, and its just flat out for lazy people who aren't willing to admit "Maybe I won't use this skill in awhile, oh well, time to keep improving myself".


 

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