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Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.05.21 21:33:00 - [31]
 

Quote:
Blasters dont need more damage though, there damage without drones is superrior to autos


Not really no. Did you not see my post above? The difference between autos and blasters is tiny, and the advantage blasters do have is EFT figures only.

VoT o7
Posted - 2011.05.21 22:01:00 - [32]
 

My personal fav surprise for most shis. Megathron - Rack of blasters - 1 heavy neut - 3web drones - 2 tracking drones - MWD on overheat a few seconds.... wtf melt everything with your dps. BTW if your gonna use dps drones stop using oger 2's use beserkers they hit the exp hole and make up for the loss of dps.

I will admit, a lot of people want to use dmg drones... yeah they are great... But when your mega with a proper fit and max skills can do over 1k dps... do you really need dps drones?? Web drones with TD drones works good... with a heavy neut most smaller ships lose the ability to use mwd and against battleships they probly wont realize you're using web/td drones till its too late and by the time they lock the drones to throw war 2's on them... bam in their face melt.

I do think blasters have bad tracking tho, even with max skills i can sit in opt of a ship and blast away at it and get very inconsistant hits... douno why, bugs me. But tbh I think a lot has to do with the transversal.. yeah a speed bono would be great!! not... atm how it is, you pretty much have to KEEP at distance from another ship to elminate the transversal effects for your blasters to hit. That means you pretty much have to stop. Which sucks, ever try hitting a ship with blasters with your mwd on, while you are both moving.. not gonna happen even if its a bs in your opt.

I don't think dps is an issue, I think it's tracking and transversal.

Caliglia
Posted - 2011.05.21 22:44:00 - [33]
 

Have any one considered the old bug where you moved to close to the person you where attacking i think it starts at 1 km and the game cant figure out who are where and moving in what direction and the transversal becomes huge.
i used it a few times to great benefit when flying missile firing Amarr ships.
I just set my ship to orbit at 500 m and the turret boat got big problems at tracking me with his guns.

Sveti Ante
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.22 03:27:00 - [34]
 

Yeah but we are talking about NON BUG balance here.

General Domination
Posted - 2011.05.22 07:44:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: General Domination on 22/05/2011 07:53:20
Originally by: AlleyKat
Fix the ships, not the guns.

The (lack) of effectiveness with hybrid blasters are because of not being able to dictate range during close range combat, and web bonuses not being what they need to be for Gallente ships.

This was because of the 'Gallente nerf' patch several years ago.

Although it (in general) made necessary changes to some aspects of EVE ship combat, it effectively killed off Gallente close range PvP with blasters.

Buff the ships, not the guns - the guns worked just fine and dandy before the patch.

Gallente are not the only ships with drones and unless you are going to give me back skill points and remove drones from the game - forget it.

AK

Dear CCP,

absolutely, gallente ships needs a agility/speed bonus to the ship itselfs and a dronespeed bonus to dronebays.

Kelly Kavanagh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.22 08:52:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Kelly Kavanagh on 22/05/2011 08:57:40

Get rid of drones? Unthinkable!

Instead, give Gallente ship pilots the unique ability to issue attack orders to drones without requiring a target lock, and automatically lunch drones when an attack order is issued.

Ghost Nightmare
Posted - 2011.05.23 00:38:00 - [37]
 

90% webs, nuff said.

Sakaras Lane
Posted - 2011.05.23 01:19:00 - [38]
 

With the old web percentages blaster boats used to be amazing, that being said with the newer percentages gallente ships just can not close the distance or hold down a fleeing enemy to stay in range. I made the switch a year ago or so away from Blaster ships to Autocannons they do equal damage track on almost anything within 20km and do not take cap to use. Blasters just have to many weakness and not enough utility an example of this is tracking, falloff, energy neuts. Gallente ships need to be slightly faster about 15% across the board and the problem would be fixed.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.05.23 03:08:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 23/05/2011 03:10:53
*sigh* I just cannot make blasters and an armour tank work. I just get kited.

I'm now turning to shield tanks coupled with medium ECM drones. It's going to be difficult to make do without a web, but with overdrives and an overheated MWD I think I can get a Brutix (don't laugh!) up to an (almost) acceptable speed. And with the cover of medium ECM drones, it should make evading damage/neuts/webs as I close in much easier. And because I'm not fitted with plates or reps I'll have more lows for damage mods, and more grid for Medium Ions and even some Neutrons.

I'm still testing this set-up, but it really can't be any worse than the bricks I've been flying. You just cannot catch anyone flying these ships they way they are meant to be flown. Oh, the things I've had to do to my blaster boats to try and make them work!

I'm a bad, bad man. Crying or Very sad

TheExtruder
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.05.23 03:24:00 - [40]
 

the least they can do to boost hybrids is remove the reload rate, since hybrids have the most range choices it kinda makes sense

alternative: half the time of reload rate

Shieldss
Northern Freight Unlimited
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2011.05.23 03:29:00 - [41]
 

I have to agree with the OP. Although with one small tweak. Allow the current specialty drones, like EWAR or logistics drones, but just get rid of combat drones. This would force Gallente to not only use hybrids more, and thus making them an effective dps tool be default, but still allow drones to play an important role in the ability of a Gallente combat pilot to perform combat.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.05.23 03:41:00 - [42]
 

I agree, remove white tree from game and fix caldari

Sveti Ante
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.23 05:52:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Shieldss
I have to agree with the OP. Although with one small tweak. Allow the current specialty drones, like EWAR or logistics drones, but just get rid of combat drones. This would force Gallente to not only use hybrids more, and thus making them an effective dps tool be default, but still allow drones to play an important role in the ability of a Gallente combat pilot to perform combat.


I disagree. Drones are a nice addition to the game. Getting rid of drones wont make Gallente better. Your remedy is like remove the crutch of the cripple to force him to walk more and make better use of whatever legs hes got...duh.

I think the overall consensus is that currently the Gallente ships overall...suck...for PVP ,which is a very overall descriptive term. Drones are nice toy but need to be much better to be a force to be reckoned with in PVP for sub capital ships. Gallente are a kind of combination of half measures and semi proficiency, a sorry mediocrity that just doesn't measure up to the other races when push comes to shove, being inferior in every respect except maybe remote repping POSs.

Lets hope CCP does something about this (SOON!) and makes the Gallente the up close and personal nightmare they are meant to be. I switched training 7 months ago to Minmatar after I realized just how underpowered the Gallente are.

Ghost Nightmare
Posted - 2011.05.23 07:26:00 - [44]
 

How many of you have flown a vindicator.

Its basically an old-school megathron with more raw-firepower.

even with less DPS it still works like a charm because of its 90% webs.

Thats all hybrids have ever needed, getting webbed by a blasterboat should be a massive oh-**** moment.

perhaps to keep balance we could settle for 80% webs?

But thats the simplest and easiest solution.

Jack Moove
Posted - 2011.06.06 03:47:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Jack Moove on 06/06/2011 04:21:21
Edited by: Jack Moove on 06/06/2011 04:19:06
Thought I might add something to this thread, 2 builds for the Incursis. I havnt tried them in pvp and quite frankly I wont, if im gona pvp Ill fly Minmatar but I made them with this thread in mind so here we go. incadently they are both shield tanks.

setup 1:
this is a compleetly Defensive setup with pvp in mind. I made it considering blasters ultra short range and decided that because you cant dictate range effectivly it might be better to be able to choose what fights you can win and be able to leave when a fight is going belly up.

lows:
x2 stoik core equalisers
mids:
x1 1mn afterburner 2
x1 small f59 regolith shield induction
x1 fleeting progressive warp scrambler
highs:
x3 regulated light ion phase cannon
rigs x2 anti em screen reinforcer
x1 anti thermal screen reinforcer
drones:
x1 pesky drone of choice

so basicallly your not gona win any dps medals but if you dont like how the fight is going simply warp out and find someone else that cant kite you.

setup 2:
this fit plays on a large pasive shield tank using rails to reach out and touch someone. it sports a 20k disruptor, basically keep tham at 15k and blast till there dead. if they wana get in close use antimatter(5k), for normal range lead, if they try to kite past 20k iron.

lows:
x1 magnetic feild stab 2
x1 tracking enhanser 2
mids:
x1 1mn ab2
x1 fleeting warp disruptor
x1 medium f59 regolith shield induction
highs:
x3 75mm gatling rail 2
rigs:
x2 anti em screen reinforcer
x1 anti thermal screen reinforcer
drones:
x1 pesky drone of choice

remember assault frigs are the inbetween of intys and heavy frigs(tristan, rifter) so if you wana take down rifters the tristan would be a better choice, with 2 standard launchers and a drone you get 3 damage sources on the target out to 35 - 40k if they wana get in close you get 2 more guns to put on them. the only thing that makes the tristan hard is it requires a fue more skills to get the most outa it. once you got some better skills though the ship becomes alot better.
edit: 5 long range damage sources with rails.
anyways if you try these 2 builds out let me know how they played, what you liked and disliked etc.
there a complete 180 from the Minmatar idea of pack as much dps as possible. but if played smart i think they have to potential to be alright.

sry for any typos

Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 08:20:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Sveti Ante


I agree, most gallente ship slots make them sorta handicapped. The hyperion is the most classic example of a pile of scrap metal that costs 155 million.


Amen to that.

Jessy Berbers
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.06 08:40:00 - [47]
 

I would like to see a fix to, and yes, Gallente there speed and agility does need quite an increase, as Gallente is the race probably that has no viability what so ever in PVP situations.

Probably even more so...People probably even lurking in gallente space to try and gank gallente.

Unbendable McRib
Posted - 2011.06.06 13:36:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: thingy wotsit
blasters should get more damage and range... should have pulse range... hybrids need love.


agree with that give love to Hybrids!!

TheSpyInCorp
Posted - 2011.06.06 15:24:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Unbendable McRib
Originally by: thingy wotsit
blasters should get more damage and range... should have pulse range... hybrids need love.


agree with that give love to Hybrids!!


great, so then we'd have two groups of weapons that do exactly the same thing, except blasters will use a little less cap and use charge ammo instead of crystals. Oh heres an idea, lets give all hybrids the ability to fit scripts. We'll have a laser script so hybrids can be lasers, then we'll have a projectile script so they can be projectiles.

Freya Kesanlaulu
Minmatar
Arthashastra
Posted - 2011.06.06 18:21:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Freya Kesanlaulu on 06/06/2011 18:27:19
Originally by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 21/05/2011 01:00:13
This is a ridiculous idea - akin to a left-handed person amputating their preferred hand in order to force themselves to master the use of their right. Kind of.

Hybrids need a buff that makes them more effective, yet one which does not encroach on the defining traits of other weapon systems - so increasing blaster range and fall-off is a no-no. Buffing blaster tracking and damage would help. As for Rails, I can't say - I haven't used them enough to suggest a fix.

As for Gallente ships, they now need attributes that allow them to make use of these weapons. This means, in the case of blaster boats, more speed and more power grid. Gallente blaster boats should really receive some sort of MWD speed bonus instead of the cap usage bonus, as well as a base increase in speed.


+1

Powergrid boost on gallente hybrid ships would fix some problems. I, for example, can't fit Neutrons on any of my blaster ships, except proteus - so that's the main problem: decreased both dps and range. Other problem is that there are not usually enough low slots for both tank and Magnetic Field Stabilizers. (Minmatars are lucky because of shield tank - they can fit 3 gyros in lows and have better dps than gallente hybrid ships)
And tracking boost would help too.

And come on CCP, fix the bonuses for Eos, coz they make no sense. What is purpose of extra drone bay if the drone bandwith is 75? More drones in my dronebay (which is already 150) won't help me a lot. Increase either drone bandwith, drone dps or something else.

EDIT: And... are you all insane!? To remove combat drones from the game?? Drones are the ONLY reason I fly gallente! :)

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.06.06 20:03:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 06/06/2011 20:17:43


Originally by: Freya Kesanlaulu
Edited by: Freya Kesanlaulu on 06/06/2011 18:27:19

+1

Powergrid boost on gallente hybrid ships would fix some problems. I, for example, can't fit Neutrons on any of my blaster ships, except proteus - so that's the main problem: decreased both dps and range. Other problem is that there are not usually enough low slots for both tank and Magnetic Field Stabilizers. (Minmatars are lucky because of shield tank - they can fit 3 gyros in lows and have better dps than gallente hybrid ships)
And tracking boost would help too.

And come on CCP, fix the bonuses for Eos, coz they make no sense. What is purpose of extra drone bay if the drone bandwith is 75? More drones in my dronebay (which is already 150) won't help me a lot. Increase either drone bandwith, drone dps or something else.

EDIT: And... are you all insane!? To remove combat drones from the game?? Drones are the ONLY reason I fly gallente! :)



Yes, few Gallente ships can actually fit the higher tier blasters without sacrificing a tanking bonus by switching to shields. I managed to get 7 Neutrons with 3 mag stabs on my Brutix, but the shield tank I needed to fit to do this is poor. The ships is also still too slow, and the damage it does, though good in theory, is not high enough to offset all the damage taken getting into range. Sad

CCP should do one of two things: Change the slot layout on the blaster boats by adding a mid slot and removing a low. This would allow for a basic shield tank, MWD, scram and web. Or, if they insist on keep the ships armour tankers, boost the power grid and base speed of the ships so they can fit the higher tier blasters, survive getting in range, and have a chance of catching their prey!

And a bonus to webs on blasterboats might well be more useful than the current MWD and armour rep bonuses many of our ships have. Something like: 7% bonus to velocity factor of stasis webifier and 10% bonus to range per level. So at cruiser/BC level 5, a Stasis Webifier II would have a 15km range and 74% velocity factor.

I imagine, however, that even with these changes, hybrids are still going to need a buff.

Kelly Kavanagh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.07 03:01:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Kelly Kavanagh on 07/06/2011 03:18:20

Perhaps hybrid charges are what need a buff. They do the same amount of damage as the corresponding frequency crystals but they are more evenly split between the primary and secondary damage types which is kind of a nerf. Laser turrets tend to be more affective against shields while projectile turrets tend to be better against armor. Hybrid charges aren't good against either.

To compensate for these factors, add EM damage to all hybrid charges with range bonuses- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then add Explosive damage to all hybrid charges with range penalties- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then give all Lead charges both damage bonuses for their respective sizes.

SGT FUNYOUN
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.07 03:22:00 - [53]
 

Gallente is NOT a gun fighter race like the rest... they are THE drones race... drones are their primary weapons not hybrid cannons. Just look at the design of their ships, they are all based on the look of old world technology. That is what makes them... them. Gallente started the Gallente Federation. They are representative of US society (Hey flamers... I am an American so stow your torches). US Society is a very technology forward society. We love to make technology that does ALL the work for us. So by that token the Gallente Federation is a very technology based society.

If you take drones away then you completely destroy the whole story line aspect of the Gallente Federation. Gallente made drones to make life easier and make less manual labor for themselves.

So don't remove the drones. Simply buff the guns a little, or learn how to properly employ your drones. Problem solved. Smile

Jack Moove
Posted - 2011.06.07 03:40:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Kelly Kavanagh
Edited by: Kelly Kavanagh on 07/06/2011 03:18:20

Perhaps hybrid charges are what need a buff. They do the same amount of damage as the corresponding frequency crystals but they are more evenly split between the primary and secondary damage types which is kind of a nerf. Laser turrets tend to be more affective against shields while projectile turrets tend to be better against armor. Hybrid charges aren't good against either.

To compensate for these factors, add EM damage to all hybrid charges with range bonuses- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then add Explosive damage to all hybrid charges with range penalties- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then give all Lead charges both damage bonuses for their respective sizes.


If you want em damage use em drones.
there charges should be like
antimatter: full heat damage no kinetic. antimatter is plasma and plasma has no kinetic properties.
iron: full kinetic no heat. by the time an iron projectile travels the long distance its shed off most of its residual heat from the charge in the casing.
the rest of the ranges between them should split the difference, going a charge up from antimatter adds a bit of kinetic and a bit less thermal all the way up to iron and vice versa.

Tantabobo
Posted - 2011.06.07 05:49:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Gallente need 90% webs and zero effect against MWD switch off from scrams


Right, because that's totally not stupidly overpowered. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of ways to hilariously abuse this bonus for FoTM solopwnmobiles.

Blasterships should have trouble getting into range. That's the tradeoff for their supposed facemelting dps.
The problem?
There is no facemelting dps on most blasterboats. Those dps figures are EFT only. Autocannons and lasers are just plain better in 90% of situations, including a lot of close range ones. Blasters have a defined niché, with its own strengths and weaknesses, they just need to be better at it than other ships to a big enough extent to be worth flying.

A Megathron with a rack of neutrons, ogre IIs and mag stabs deals out approximately 1150 dps. A Maelstrom with 800mms is putting out 1036. That's a difference of a frankly pathetic 114, which will be largely mitigated by the fact the Maelstrom can fire:
1. Into the opponents resist hole
and
2. Out to over 30km with faction ammo, and 50 with barrage.

Oh by the way, as one last nail in the coffin, the Megathron only has that bigger dps because it's mounting ogres. Take away drones from both sides and the damage difference is basically gone.
(For the record: it's a difference of 9 dps between a bonused neutron blaster and an 800mm auto. Yeah, I'd totally fly Gallente for that.)


Well, you are comparing a Tier 3 battleship (Maelstrom) vs. a Tier 2 (Megathron), of course the Maelstrom is going to come out on top. You are also doing an 8 vs. 7 gun comparison. You should either do Tempest vs. Megathron or Maelstrom vs. Hyperion. Doing so you would see that the Gallente ship provides a fair amount more dps with blasters over the Minmatars Autocannons. But that of course doesn't support your conclusions, so you wouldn't want to do that.


I will concede that to preform well in a Gallente boat requires more skill and tactics than using another races complimentary ship. I think that this reason alone hurts them more than anything, anyone can jump into a nanocane and preform decent. It takes skill to jump into a blaster fit myrmidon and do well.

Now, everything I have said so far is for blasters. I don't use rails outside of frigate pvp, where they preform decently so I will not comment on their effectiveness on larger ships.

--Tanta

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.07 05:52:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 07/06/2011 05:53:26
Quote:
My suggestion to improve the use of hybrids is to get rid of drones.



Was this a troll? lol, stupidest idea ever.

..maybe the real answer is to do away with hybrids and buff drones. lol.




Kelly Kavanagh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.07 07:40:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Kelly Kavanagh on 07/06/2011 07:57:48

Originally by: Jack Moove

Perhaps hybrid charges are what need a buff. They do the same amount of damage as the corresponding frequency crystals but they are more evenly split between the primary and secondary damage types which is kind of a nerf. Laser turrets tend to be more affective against shields while projectile turrets tend to be better against armor. Hybrid charges aren't good against either.

To compensate for these factors, add EM damage to all hybrid charges with range bonuses- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then add Explosive damage to all hybrid charges with range penalties- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then give all Lead charges both damage bonuses for their respective sizes.


If you want em damage use em drones.
there charges should be like
antimatter: full heat damage no kinetic. antimatter is plasma and plasma has no kinetic properties.
iron: full kinetic no heat. by the time an iron projectile travels the long distance its shed off most of its residual heat from the charge in the casing.
the rest of the ranges between them should split the difference, going a charge up from antimatter adds a bit of kinetic and a bit less thermal all the way up to iron and vice versa.

I had that idea myself and I rejected it because it would force all Gallente ships to always have to get in close to a target to kill it's shields. My idea allows Gallente to kill shields at range before moving in close to kill armor.

Jack Moove
Posted - 2011.06.07 07:53:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Kelly Kavanagh
Originally by: Jack Moove

Perhaps hybrid charges are what need a buff. They do the same amount of damage as the corresponding frequency crystals but they are more evenly split between the primary and secondary damage types which is kind of a nerf. Laser turrets tend to be more affective against shields while projectile turrets tend to be better against armor. Hybrid charges aren't good against either.

To compensate for these factors, add EM damage to all hybrid charges with range bonuses- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then add Explosive damage to all hybrid charges with range penalties- +1 for small, +2 for medium, +4 for large, and +8 for x-large.

Then give all Lead charges both damage bonuses for their respective sizes.


If you want em damage use em drones.
there charges should be like
antimatter: full heat damage no kinetic. antimatter is plasma and plasma has no kinetic properties.
iron: full kinetic no heat. by the time an iron projectile travels the long distance its shed off most of its residual heat from the charge in the casing.
the rest of the ranges between them should split the difference, going a charge up from antimatter adds a bit of kinetic and a bit less thermal all the way up to iron and vice versa.

I had that idea myself and I rejected it because it would force all Gallente ships to always have to get in close to a target to kill it's shields. My idea allows Gallente to kill shields at range before moving in close to kill armor.


drones kill shields just fine and they do it at range. alot of the time by the time i get to the target the shields are gone.

Chuc Morris
Posted - 2011.06.07 09:22:00 - [59]
 

Saw 1 triple rep autos myrm + 1 double rep blaster hype and all their bunch of drones be melted like butter by 3 buffer bc's Laughing

They weren't using civilian stuff but really looked like Twisted Evil


Evannar
Posted - 2011.06.07 11:53:00 - [60]
 

Can you guys please stop going off topic in my thread?


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