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LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.05.17 07:37:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: WisdomPanda
Originally by: LordElfa
Edited by: LordElfa on 16/05/2011 23:51:12
OMG You nerfhearders, this is not a buff, it is a nerf.

N

E

R

F


NERF!


Not much of a nerf mind you but it certainly no damned buff. I know, I've tried it on SiSi on my 10.0 standings agent with security con at 5.



The ease of which I will be able to access one of the best income sources in the game on a fresh alt, begs to differ. Let's also not ignore the fact that I won't need to worry about 4h timers or have to cross train some indy skills for those pesky courier missions.

Aping what someone else did in order to make them look less relevant makes me look clever.



You want I should get you a tissue? How can someone with the word wisdom in their name have none? You obviously aren't a mission runner or you'd know that none of what you've said is true in practice.

New guys won't be making any more isk then they would have before since they'll still be low on standings. As an L4 runner I can tell you that even when you get nothing but combat, you still tend to skip missions that you don't feel like doing which brings up the timer and as far as your bit on skill training, thats just stupid seeing as if you didn't want to do those missions, you would skip it, not train skills for it.Laughing

Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
Mean Coalition
Posted - 2011.05.17 08:23:00 - [272]
 

Hm funny if that will help....

Just judging by Sisters of Eve, that have 2 Highsec LvL 4 Agents, and 1 will be changed to a Hauler Agent... -> All People will move to the last remaining LvL 4 PewPew Highsec Agent... that will help to make the Sisters Imp Set get more expensive (mebbe), and that 1 Agent System getting filled to max lag
cool :-P

Visione
Amarr
VM Labs
Quo Vadis.
Posted - 2011.05.17 08:25:00 - [273]
 

I like the changes tbh.

it might be a buff compared to the sanctum nerf, bet let's get real, grinding stadings for weeks just to get acces to 1 agent was redicilous, also, level 4 missions aren't the biggest scource of income anymore, you want reall good money, go to incursions, hea wait... they are in null sec aswell... and btw, carebears shouldn't be in 0.0

Mors Magne
Astral Adventure
Posted - 2011.05.17 08:26:00 - [274]
 

It's a good change - well done. However, I think it's better to concentrate manpower on Walking in Stations.

Walking in stations opens up obvious new frontiers for Eve Online. Compared to this, other achievements could be missed or overlooked.

Enkill Eridos
Draconian Enforcers Available To Hire
Property Management Solutions
Posted - 2011.05.17 08:32:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: Enkill Eridos on 17/05/2011 08:34:04
Originally by: Valora Asatru
Overall the changes seems good. But as somone else stated CCP must be on the ball to prevent macroers from flocking to the courier missions.

And for people whining about 0.0 beeing nerfed:
Crappy 0.0 got nerfed. I actually think it's ok for some of 0.0 to be less rewarding then the best activities in highsec/lowsec(especially low).
Why?
Because you have been carebearing out there for a long time now, with little risk. And little risk comes from loads of systems with anomaly upgrades making disruptive activities harder. Now there will be fighting over resources other than moongoo, which can only be good. I don't understand why people in 0.0 boast of it beeing for though guys only and then whine like girls when they just can't sit and carebear 23/7 in a system with only blues.
Take a look at lowsec in comparison. What's there are good lvl 4 and 5 agents. But where they are, there are pirates. So people using them are at risk while doing so.
Highsec missions might need a small nerf, but those people making lots of isk in missions there are often in pimped rides, and pimped rides can get ganked, so they are not 100% safe.



Wow you really do not know anything about 0.0..all this bs that you totally clueless people saying they macro etc. etc. I have honestly never seen it. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think the ones complaining about it would be the ones doing it. As for low-risk in 0.0? You have never actually lived in 0.0 for too long have you? If you did you would know that no one is safe in 0.0..sure we have quiet moments, but every once in a while NC or someone else starts saying (internally) our macroers need more systems to macro in. Let's just say these guys do it, I am sure they do because I do it. Then roll into a region and start taking over. If you actually watched the sov maps you would see this in action. Ask someone who lives in Wicked Creek if 0.0 is ever "safe". It's really funny because sov 0.0 requires other players to play with members outside of thier corps/alliances. All of you that is complaining, think of this. CCP doesn't have to nerf 0.0 for you to change things. You could get organized in high-sec study the sov maps available to you..just google dotlan. Find somewhere small get a decent balanced fleet and not a blob of frigates, and take a system from of these alliances. The players can change the current power-block if they actually *gasp* play with players outside thier alliance/corp. It seems most of the players in eve want to change this to WoW in space. sov 0.0 is player controlled..Go raise hell sbu a 0.0 alliance..keep doing it untill you take a system. Then run that system how you want. Untill you actually do that..maybe you shouldn't complain.

Ms Freak
Amarr
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.05.17 08:39:00 - [276]
 

OK so the changes sound fine to me, however..

When did CCP start giving people 2 days notice about patch content?

What happened to the 2 months etc?

This is at least the second major change going into this patch that no-one knew about untill a week before hand?!?!

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.05.17 10:19:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Visione
I like the changes tbh.

it might be a buff compared to the sanctum nerf, bet let's get real, grinding stadings for weeks just to get acces to 1 agent was redicilous...


You mean grinding standings for a PARTICULAR agent. When i run missions i always found the feeling of progress quite rewarding. CCP is killing this progress progression which why i think overall these changes do not immediatialy add to the game experience.

But you know, it's all about instant gratification these days. I expect that 10m unallactod SP for new pilots is around the corner so they can just skip to L4s more easy.

And i actually do not get the intention, if it is to give an incentive to spread out? Wouldn't pilots just all move to a 0.5 agent?

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2011.05.17 10:59:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Enkill Eridos
Edited by: Enkill Eridos on 17/05/2011 08:34:04
Originally by: Valora Asatru
Overall the changes seems good. But as somone else stated CCP must be on the ball to prevent macroers from flocking to the courier missions.

And for people whining about 0.0 beeing nerfed:
Crappy 0.0 got nerfed. I actually think it's ok for some of 0.0 to be less rewarding then the best activities in highsec/lowsec(especially low).
Why?
Because you have been carebearing out there for a long time now, with little risk. And little risk comes from loads of systems with anomaly upgrades making disruptive activities harder. Now there will be fighting over resources other than moongoo, which can only be good. I don't understand why people in 0.0 boast of it beeing for though guys only and then whine like girls when they just can't sit and carebear 23/7 in a system with only blues.
Take a look at lowsec in comparison. What's there are good lvl 4 and 5 agents. But where they are, there are pirates. So people using them are at risk while doing so.
Highsec missions might need a small nerf, but those people making lots of isk in missions there are often in pimped rides, and pimped rides can get ganked, so they are not 100% safe.



Wow you really do not know anything about 0.0..all this bs that you totally clueless people saying they macro etc. etc. I have honestly never seen it. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I think the ones complaining about it would be the ones doing it. As for low-risk in 0.0? You have never actually lived in 0.0 for too long have you? If you did you would know that no one is safe in 0.0..sure we have quiet moments, but every once in a while NC or someone else starts saying (internally) our macroers need more systems to macro in. Let's just say these guys do it, I am sure they do because I do it. Then roll into a region and start taking over. If you actually watched the sov maps you would see this in action. Ask someone who lives in Wicked Creek if 0.0 is ever "safe". It's really funny because sov 0.0 requires other players to play with members outside of thier corps/alliances. All of you that is complaining, think of this. CCP doesn't have to nerf 0.0 for you to change things. You could get organized in high-sec study the sov maps available to you..just google dotlan. Find somewhere small get a decent balanced fleet and not a blob of frigates, and take a system from of these alliances. The players can change the current power-block if they actually *gasp* play with players outside thier alliance/corp. It seems most of the players in eve want to change this to WoW in space. sov 0.0 is player controlled..Go raise hell sbu a 0.0 alliance..keep doing it untill you take a system. Then run that system how you want. Untill you actually do that..maybe you shouldn't complain.


I've lived in 0.0 for quite a while. And if you use your brains, ratting in 0.0 is safer than ratting in high. Neut/Red in local --> Warp to POS (not station)

In highs sec you are relatively safe, but you can never be sure whether you will get suicide ganked when you fly a shiny ship.

Nice Nicholas
Posted - 2011.05.17 12:14:00 - [279]
 

This is just a thought and might be Cr**p
I like the changes to agents but donít like the changes to 0.0 on Scanctums etc.
So why not allow Corp / Alliances who control a system and build an outpost to have a further Upgrade to their system , They can upgrade the outpost (subject to length of time system is held and upgrades to system) to have their own agents (these would be NPC) These agents give out normal missions and Anomalies and Plexís. The corp who owns the station could charge non corp members to use this say 10%. PLex and anoms can still be scanned as now, this would mean that held systems would be defended more heavily, but also allow newer 0.0 players to make a living or small Corps to make a living in 0.0. It would also mean controlling and upgrading a system would have a major benefit and losing it would be very painful to the holding corp (more battles?)
It could also lead to(new) WH missions or 0.0 arc missions, there would have to be some mechanics to stop to many high speck drops, but I think this could make 0.0 attractive to small Corps

Sorgenbinder
Posted - 2011.05.17 12:17:00 - [280]
 

Edited by: Sorgenbinder on 17/05/2011 12:31:06
The Agent Level/Quality matter has never been an issue for me. Indeed, I find it rewarding to have to work a couple more missions just to get that slightly better Agent, then find another Agent just a few steps away. I don't think the system is complicated, and even if it is, is that a bad thing in a game which seems to take delight in complication, played by people who seem to enjoy unravelling complications?

If you absolutely HAVE to change the system (you don't...) then why not default all agents to 0/0 instead of -20/+20? Someone just mentioned "instant gratification", and that's exactly what this amounts to. I really don't want my missioning made both easier and more rewarding at the same time. What's the point of "easy"? Us carebears need SOME challenges.

And tell me, oh tell me, that my three L4 R&D Agents in one system aren't going to get nerfed...

SilentSkills
Gallente
Tax Evaders Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.17 12:25:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Versuvius Marii
Confirming a thread about lvl 4 changes is producing 0.0 carebear tears. Go back to your sanctums and havens... oh wait.


extraction process should start momentarily YARRRR!!

Sorgenbinder
Posted - 2011.05.17 12:39:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Indasun
Some of us actually like the random mission types and gravitate towards agents that offer those. For me, turning all my favorite divisions into courier-only ones isn't terribly exciting.



Precisely.

Xylorn Hasher
Posted - 2011.05.17 12:48:00 - [283]
 

That is the most ****ty change you ever did CCP!!!!
Boosting lv4 fluffy carebear grinders with even more ISK in Bear-sec is WRONG way.
Bear-sec needs to be NERFED not boosted you idiots!!!

People rarely enter low sec because of bad ISK/risk ratios and now you did it even worse with that change.
Move all Lv4's to lowsec instead. If bears wants to live peacefully in bearsec let them, but give them lowest possible income ratios from mission for that advantage!!

You made me angry CCP and even last night Anshar kill cant change my humor now!

Marcus Curtius
Posted - 2011.05.17 13:02:00 - [284]
 

Changes to agent quality - good if it spreads players out a bit...
Changes to divisions - yes we REALLY want fewer choices (I mean it just hurts to have to think too much... Rolling Eyes)
Changes to mission types to 100% - so lets take a bit of eve that can be repetitive and make it REALLY repetitive (we really like doing exactly the same thing again and again and again (insert crazed laughter)- without any boring things, like the random chance doing something different every once in a while - say combat instead of courier or mining...

I like eve because of it's variety in most things, but I suspect it's expensive to maintain so better nerf it to save money...

Sahjahn
Caldari
Temporal Weapon Against Time
Posted - 2011.05.17 13:06:00 - [285]
 

CCP: Can you confirm then that level 5 agents will now payout as if they are +20 quality as apposed to the +12 they are set at now? If so I like this change :P

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.05.17 13:08:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Makumba Aki
I've lived in 0.0 for quite a while. And if you use your brains, ratting in 0.0 is safer than ratting in high. Neut/Red in local --> Warp to POS (not station)

In highs sec you are relatively safe, but you can never be sure whether you will get suicide ganked when you fly a shiny ship.



Its safer in 0.0 because you align (compared to mission runners). I'll bet most missions runners don't. If they did there would be no problem instawarping when someone uncloaks/warps in. You could throw an alt off and warp to him if you have to align to something. Just because you don't pay attention in empire while those of us who live in 0.0 do, that doesnt mean that the rewards should greater. If you look at the big picture, chances are there are more deaths from 0.0 ratters than there are from mission runners (Not THAT many people fly with pimped out ships and there are not as many suicide gankers as there are roaming gangs killing ratters. AND ther eare more mission runners than there are ratters in 0.0. Therefore there is most likely greater risk in 0.0.

Marcus Curtius
Posted - 2011.05.17 13:09:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Sorgenbinder
Originally by: Indasun
Some of us actually like the random mission types and gravitate towards agents that offer those. For me, turning all my favorite divisions into courier-only ones isn't terribly exciting.



Precisely.


Completely agreed

LoRDa RaMOs
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.17 13:59:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: LoRDa RaMOs on 17/05/2011 13:59:47
Are you going to force new players to do courier missions only? By changing Advisory (only agents offered by starter Academy NPC corps) to 100% courier?

That'll gain you some subscribers!!!

Awesome! Laughing

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.05.17 14:40:00 - [289]
 

Will corps with only agents of one type get some of the other types?

Example: Hedion University is almost completely Advisory which was a decent mission mix (for me) and will now be 100% courier.

sg1jack
Caldari
The Omega Particle
Posted - 2011.05.17 15:04:00 - [290]
 

Looking forward to seeing how the changes will effect the game.

Must say though I am loving the 0.0 types tears. When will 0.0 or lowsec livers get it through there heads some of us just like living and playing eve in high sec, just as you like playing and living in low sec 0.0.

Seems to me when ever theres a change the low sec crowd moan because its not forcing easy targets there way to make there kill boards look good.

Get over it.

Eve has a very varied player base just because you want to be able to pew pew all over Eve does not mean that everybody does. The game has changed and will continue to change I hope for the rest of time.

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.05.17 15:09:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Vincent Gaines
So...

You nerfed Anoms and payouts in 0.0 and essentially boosted ALL agents in hisec?

what the hell.


You bot/macro-using ****s have no-one to blame for this but yourselves, and deserve no better. But yeah, do what cheating, manipulating scum**** ego-maniacs always do, either in-game or RL: Cry like *****es when your crooked little side-game gets busted...I hope, for this reason alone, that Sanctums/havens get eliminated completely. Sure it'll never happen, but one can dream...Twisted Evil

ZeroSec is a bad joke, and it's people like you that have made it so. Well, reap what you've sown, karma is a real *****, innit...

Doctor Nho
Posted - 2011.05.17 15:12:00 - [292]
 

First of all, what an aweful lot of whining. Its no wonder there's no CCP response, they'll be thinking you're just a bunch of change-averse entitlement queens.

Sid Meyers gave a talk on what makes strategy games fun. His answer is "interesting decisions". In WoW if you want a specific piece of equipment you run a specific quest over and over until you get it -- no decision there, interesting or otherwise. (Someone will object that this isn't a strategy game, its an MMO. But an MMO without strategy or interesting decisions is just a massively multiplayer first person shooter. Go play Quake if that's all you want.)

This change removes several interesting decisions from Eve:

- I'm running Level N missions and my agent is +30. I have standing to move to a Level N+1 agent with standing -15. Should I take the temporary income hit now or wait a bit until I can move directly to a Level N+1 agent with standing -5?

- I want to do kill missions but I just hit the 1% case and got a mining mission from my agent. Should I refuse it? I don't want to do mining missions, but I really don't want to do missions vs another faction and reduce my (balanced) standing. So do I refuse this one at the risk that I'll want to refuse the next one even more?

- Would I rather run missions for an agent that is quality 18 but gives 80% kill missions or an agent that is quality 14 and gives 98% kill missions?

- Which one of the Xxx Connection skills should I get first?

I think making the game simpler to understand is a worthy goal, but I don't think removing interesting decisions is the best way to do it. Instead, you could make the information necessary to make those decisions more accessible. For example, you start a conversation with an agent. The game puts up a pop-up saying: This agent is a member of the XXX division and gives 80% encounter missions, 19% courier missions and 1% trade missions. Do you wish to request a mission from this agent? (Yes/No, with a checkbox for 'don't show this again for this agent' and another for 'don't show this again for any agent'). That's far better than forcing players to derive the percentages with multiple different estimates floating around the internet, and no hint in game that the division actually means anything. Making the game less opaque is better than dumbing it down.

Another thing that could have been done instead would be to make it possible to understand the expected average value of doing missions for a particular agent. We've been told agents in 0.6 systems give better rewards than agents in 0.8 systems, but not how much difference it makes relative to agent quality. There's no interesting decision here today because there's no information to use to make the decision. The info on a given agent could give the range of values of the rewards that are possible from that agent, based on your current standing with them.

Breaking up mission hubs seems like a good idea, a better way to do that would be to make agent quality dynamic over time. For example, every downtime every agent has a chance of having their quality go +1 (with a max), -1 (with a min) or stay the same, with maybe a 10%/10%/80% distribution on the roll. That would create new decisions about whether to move (all your missioning stuff) to a new system or hope your current agent comes back. How long do you hold on to your losing agent before you bail on him?

One thing that makes running missions monotonous is that in a given part of hi-sec you're only going to see 1/4 of the Level N missions. Having filtered out all the missions that are for another level or for a rat type in another part of space, there aren't very many left. More could be done to increase the pool of available missions, and having more missions that can be completed in various ways would be welcome. For example, encounter missions where it's possible to avoid the encounter if you are skillful and still complete the mission.




Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.05.17 15:22:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Kiyohime Ronuken
I'd love nothing more than to see low-sec made more playable, 0.0 made less mind-numbing for the carebears (yay - fighter takes out last rat BS... woo - strip miners cycle) and ALL regions given something that WILL challenge all of us who choose to PVE: CONTENT.


Oh, and this. Very much, this.

The core truth here is that EVE's PvE component was primitive, ill-thought-out (if thought out at all), and shoddy by 2000 standards, and has only gotten worse since.

Hell-LOOOO, McFly! Dynamic-campaign-generator, anyone? I think they had those by 2001, if my increasingly-old memory serves...Gods forbid Advanced--by 2002 standards, FFS!--NPC AI, and mission-completion strategies geared towards PvP-style fits and tactics (that will mean much fewer red "+" on O/V, CCP, and the ones that are on it to be...you know, a challenge? Come on, at least make it so the mission-runner has to point the NPC that drops the mission-completion item to keep it from warping out!)

This **** is not new, or hard, nor yet un-implementable, people!

Instead what do we get? A "clean-up" of things that really didn't need it, AND rendering all the work that most mission-runners have done up to it worthless. Did someone say, "StarWars Galaxies?"

Well, hey: That beats CCP having to do actual work on actual content and/or fixing what's already broken, eh? Can't have that, that simply won't do...I do seriously hope that there is a piece of the puzzle that I'm not seeing here, as regards the overall intent of this, as from where I'm sitting, this is just more proof that EVE is dying. The next SWG? I most ardently hope not, but this has that kind of cluster**** written all over it...

Selar Nox
Posted - 2011.05.17 15:27:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Marcus Curtius
Originally by: Sorgenbinder
Originally by: Indasun
Some of us actually like the random mission types and gravitate towards agents that offer those. For me, turning all my favorite divisions into courier-only ones isn't terribly exciting.



Precisely.


Completely agreed


Would also like to see some divisions that offer mixed mission types.

In our corp we fly missions (lvl 4) together in small, mixed fleets (we fly the ship we like and not what's most effective). So when there was a courier mission once in a while during all the fighting, adding some variety, it could be done by our frigates/interceptors/etc while the big guys brought home the loot and salvage stuff in their big bellies. So the courier missions added some task for the small and agile ships. Unfortunately enough this only worked with missions where you had to bring some goods from a remote station to the station of your agent (create a contract for the goods at the remote station, send your fast buddy there, let it bring back to you, where you can finish the mission). And now we won't have even this. Only Fighting (because only courier missions is too boring, even for us ^^) and one task less for our small ships.

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.05.17 15:33:00 - [295]
 

Pointing out that CCP continues to dumb down the game for the general MMO crowd.

This is not a good thing.

When I first started playing this game in 2005, I actually needed to join a corp that knew something about missions to figure out where I should go, or what I should do, what I should expect. Now its no longer necessary. Its easy. A few clicks followed by a few obvious observations, Profit.

I had hoped that CCP would weather the WoW crowd as they started to migrate away from WoW to games like EVE, but I see that is not happening well.

+1 apparently for the average intellect and improving subscriber counts and profit margins.

-1 for decision making, career planning and socializing to understand the mechanics. In short, using your brain to figure things out.

Victoria Wolfe
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.17 16:08:00 - [296]
 

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. This is a change that simplifies the mission running process. There were already high quality lvl 4 agents in high sec and most people running missions naturally gravitated to them. They didn't go to low sec or null sec to run missions. Level 5s will still be in low sec and the people who ran missions in low or null will likely continue to do so. So I can't really see how this will dramatically influence population locations.

People play EVE in high sec because they don't want to constantly look over their shoulder expecting someone to blow their ship to hell and back just for giggles. Now that's not to suggest that high sec is completely safe, but it is comparatively so, and I think it's good that people have the option to play in a more casual environment. I do like the suggestion that low and null sec should have their own quality levels. That is to say that a lvl 4 in null sec would grant more then a lvl 4 in high sec. That would reward people willing to risk those more hostile areas and perhaps encourage more to venture out there.

Again though I don't see how these changes negatively effect low and null sec. One could even argue that it benefits mission runners there as they won't have to go as far afield to find high quality agents. I also believe that if you're already living in low or null sec and you're comfortable there, you're not likely to leave for high sec because of the suddenly increase in quality 20 agents.

Marcus Curtius
Posted - 2011.05.17 16:18:00 - [297]
 

If all missions from a combat agent are combat, then are the mission sets that include courier/buy/build sections no longer available?
Or are all mission sets only now available from a combat agent because they contain combat sections?

Rip Rockwell
Posted - 2011.05.17 17:30:00 - [298]
 

I didnt see any mention in the patch notes of the other social skills and the impact of this patch on them? Ill admit I didnt read the entire 10 pages of this thread so I may have missed an answer someone came up with on it. Connections, Diplomacy and negotiations work on making the agents and companies like you or increase LP or monetary gains. Im not sure but I think this patch kind of blows that dynamic all to hades and back.

Aquana Abyss
Posted - 2011.05.17 18:00:00 - [299]
 

Does this change effect agents in space or COSMOS agents?

For example are the standings etc required less for a Navy BS BPC from the cosmos agents?

Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.17 18:17:00 - [300]
 

I decided to move my main to high sec to mission after the 0.0 nerf since it is kind of tough to make ISK in my alliance's systems when there are 10 people fighting over 2 Hubs (yeah, no Sanctums or Havens in our territory) in every system.

I focused on agents/corps that maximized ISK/LP payouts. I was getting about 2600-2800 ISK/LP, which is better than average, but not great.

Based on trends in the past 2 weeks, that ISK/LP is now at around 1800, and trending down hard and fast. I expect after the huge flood of mission runners, my LP will on average will be worth approx 400-600 ISK, and salvage will be halved. (trit bars maybe 40K, amour plates 80K?)

CCP is going to witness a huge decrease in the value of LP based products and salvage, but huge inflation in all other products due to the surge of bounties and mission payouts. CCP wanted to decrease ISK in the game by nerfing 0.0 anoms, and then hand it all back to high sec mission runners.

Brilliant.


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