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Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.05.13 22:37:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Voith
Caldari = PVE, Minmatar = PVP"


Hawk and Hookbill pwns Wolf...

@ OP: You didn't waste your time. Both Lg Rails and Blasters have utility, they just don't conform to the conventional wisdom in EvE PvP right now. Remember, a year and a half ago, everyone laughed at Drakes in PvP...


The mockers were stupid then too. YARRRR!!

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.13 22:38:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Voith
Caldari = PVE, Minmatar = PVP"


Hawk and Hookbill pwns Wolf...

@ OP: You didn't waste your time. Both Lg Rails and Blasters have utility, they just don't conform to the conventional wisdom in EvE PvP right now. Remember, a year and a half ago, everyone laughed at Drakes in PvP...

sure mr knowall ...

Tel'me Am Peur
Posted - 2011.05.13 22:42:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Voith
Caldari = PVE, Minmatar = PVP"


Hawk and Hookbill pwns Wolf...

@ OP: You didn't waste your time. Both Lg Rails and Blasters have utility, they just don't conform to the conventional wisdom in EvE PvP right now. Remember, a year and a half ago, everyone laughed at Drakes in PvP...


The mockers were stupid then too. YARRRR!!


The old caldari=pve bit is daft, ofc.

That being said, rails have nothing to do with that. ugh I'd probably **** myself and dance in the streets with a pantload of ***** if I ever saw a fleet forumup calling for rails tonight.

omgomgogomgomgoaoa
Posted - 2011.05.14 00:39:00 - [34]
 

http://failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1132

railgun based roam heading out tomorrow


get dancing

Tel'me Am Peur
Posted - 2011.05.14 00:42:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: omgomgogomgomgoaoa
http://failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1132

railgun based roam heading out tomorrow


get dancing


Aptly named "failgun" mocking fleet doesn't quite fit the bill, but I suppose i'll still dance a bit if I happen across you boys tomorrow. Wink

Solomon XI
Hidden Souls
Posted - 2011.05.14 01:17:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Solomon XI on 14/05/2011 01:19:50
Edited by: Solomon XI on 14/05/2011 01:18:22
For PvP, Gallente are currently suffering. The addition of the Scram which can kill the MWD and the total nerf to Stasis Webifiers kicked Gallente in the balls.

For PvE (Serpentis/Guristas), Gallente 425MM Railguns work exceptionally well (especially on a Kronos).

For PvP, I recommend Amarr. You already have all the needed skills for Amarr and just need to train Amarr gunnery. It's a fairly simple and painless transition. If CCP ever fixes Gallente, then we'll just have to revisit this discussion.

Full Disclosure: I have Large Hybrid Turret V and Large Railgun Spec V ... Rails still work for sniping and blasters still work well in fleets. You can ask the same question to 100 different people and get 100 different answers.Confused

Miriiah
Posted - 2011.05.14 02:35:00 - [37]
 

well... uh, you didn't exactly waste it, but you'd be SO much better off with proj or laser 5:S

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.14 17:44:00 - [38]
 

First of all - Liang - what's up with the one liners? You used to be so eloquent.
Second - the reasoning behind the rails having 20% less DPS than lasers is no longer valid.
It used to be that all laser ships had as one of their bonuses cap usage reductions - it was reasonable to have more DPS to be on equal footing with the gallente ships.
Now all that's changed - there are hulls that make the advantage unfair, couple that with no recharge time and insta change ammo and I see no reason at all to fly rail ships.

I'm tired of posting how an abaddon with mega beams will have more DPS than a rail vindicator.
Actually there's hardly any need to discuss all this - the facts are well known - preaching to the choir and all that. Seems like the only people ignoring the facts are the CCP employees :)

However in games there always has to be some driving force - some injustice or inequality - if "Nothing's rotten in the state of Denmark" there wouldn't be Hamlet :)

Tel'me Am Peur
Posted - 2011.05.14 17:50:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Songbird
Seems like the only people ignoring the facts are the CCP employees :)


I'd reckon they're utilizing all resources ear-marked for EVE in other areas at the moment, namely the jump bridge/broader nullsec mechanics stuff they hinted at recently. Not to mention the bot war, the catastrophe of the "new" forums, and all the other odds and ends.

Not making an apologist argument for CCP being good shepards here, but realistically they're not staffed to deal with every issue we want and if their priority on what needs more immidiate attention differs, we don't have much recourse in the matter aside from the token CSM review. Being that most of the CSM delegates are currently embroiled in a huge conflict i'd say they might be a little distracted aswell.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.05.14 20:40:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Von Kroll on 14/05/2011 20:40:37
Originally by: Songbird
...an abaddon with mega beams will have more DPS than a rail vindicator.



How are you comparing these two ships, because I can't come up with comparable fits that bear this out...

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.05.14 21:07:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tel'me Am Peur

Not making an apologist argument for CCP being good shepards here, but realistically they're not staffed to deal with every issue we want and if their priority on what needs more immidiate attention differs, we don't have much recourse in the matter aside from the token CSM review.
If CCP legitimately believes that the weapon system literally used by a third of the ships in the game being horrendously underpowered is not a high priority wrt what they should be doing, I would probably suggest that they actually start hiring people who play the damn game.

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.14 21:08:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Songbird on 14/05/2011 21:16:51
fit 3 navy damage mods on both, calculate with all 5s, with navy ammo - vindi shows 804 gun dps, abaddon 834, the difference is not that much - 30 DPS is nothing , but vindi does have 12.5 % more DPS bonus - you'd think that being a pirate ship it will have some advantage.
And don't even start me on tachyons...but they're in a league of their own.

Edit:
I read somewhere that CCP had 434 workers - I really doubt that they cannot address every issue that needs addressing - I simply think that they find the situation with the hybrids satisfactory. The imbalance is good - keeps people angry and interested.

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2011.05.14 21:55:00 - [43]
 

Yeah, op, I'm in the same boat having trained them up when they were alright and then coming back to the game a year later to find them wanting.

I'm sure there are some niche applications around but you're not going to find tons of applications for t2 large rails at the moment. I think making probes movable and reusable and removed the aoe dd kinda killed sniper battleships.

Anyway, look on the bright side: you can gate camp, play station games, and web things well.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.05.14 22:48:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Songbird
Edited by: Songbird on 14/05/2011 21:16:51
fit 3 navy damage mods on both, calculate with all 5s, with navy ammo - vindi shows 804 gun dps, abaddon 834, the difference is not that much - 30 DPS is nothing , but vindi does have 12.5 % more DPS bonus - you'd think that being a pirate ship it will have some advantage.


Well, there has to be some value in the fact that the Vindi is a lot faster, can fit a better tank, can get roughly 10-20% better range at those DPS values, has the 90% webs and has 125 m3 drone bay/125 mb bandwidth? With the Drone DPS (either heavies or sentries, the Vindi pulls ahead by a 10% margin). [Not flaming--just curious for discussions sake.]

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.14 23:41:00 - [45]
 

I gave the vindi as an extreme example to show how much better are the beams. I don't know if you can get better tank out of the vindi than the abaddon with it's bonus to resists - I don't really care, and yes - slap 5 guardes and you have 1000 + EFT dps. That wasn't the point though.

If you do want a fair comparison compare the marauders. Kronos usually gets 210 less dps than the paladin(130 with megabeams).
It doesn't sound like much but it's enough to qualify the rails as second rate guns.
Now couple the lousy long range guns with the extremely short ranged blasters (which makes them real bad in mid range fleet engagements) and you have the hybrids 5 as a wasted training time.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.05.15 07:59:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Songbird
I gave the vindi as an extreme example to show how much better are the beams. I don't know if you can get better tank out of the vindi than the abaddon with it's bonus to resists - I don't really care, and yes - slap 5 guardes and you have 1000 + EFT dps. That wasn't the point though.

If you do want a fair comparison compare the marauders. Kronos usually gets 210 less dps than the paladin(130 with megabeams).
It doesn't sound like much but it's enough to qualify the rails as second rate guns.
Now couple the lousy long range guns with the extremely short ranged blasters (which makes them real bad in mid range fleet engagements) and you have the hybrids 5 as a wasted training time.


Fair enough... Thanks for the explanation.

Arx Eladios
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2011.05.15 11:24:00 - [47]
 

A little bit of patience is in order.

Hybrids will be boosted eventually. And seeing how wildly CCP changes things, they will be FOTM after a boost. How long till you get your change can vary. Naglfar waited for many years before finally being fixed. Hopefully it will not take that long for hybrids.

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.05.15 11:56:00 - [48]
 

As i said again.

There are worse problems then hybrids.

Blasters are fine, because stations eject ships right into optimal. And high sec system gates place stuff 15km, well in the range of blasters. Sure , lasers have 50km, but its mostly useless as stuff will be in 15km range. Furthermore, gallente DO have means to shoot to 60km. We call it drones.


This is the one which needs fixing. If cruise missiles doesnt get fixed, why should hybrids gets it?

I refuse if CCP waste time on fixing hybrids, rather then more important parts of the games like cruise missiles

No one uses cruise missiles in PVP. as i said. it needs double the alpha, maybe 5 times more flight speed (with 5 times less flight time).

It also needs a better explosion size and velocity.

It also needs to be cheaper.

On top of that we need another missile slot on both raven and CNR.

It also should move faster as the range goes higher, with an unlimited flight speed.

It should hit a 249km target within 5 seconds.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.15 14:37:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Arx Eladios
A little bit of patience is in order.

Hybrids will be boosted eventually. And seeing how wildly CCP changes things, they will be FOTM after a boost. How long till you get your change can vary. Naglfar waited for many years before finally being fixed. Hopefully it will not take that long for hybrids.


I hope not.

I mean, I'm one of these that spams all hybrids/blasters/platforms with his own experience, witch if far from being ultimate never pretended that, but when they take care of our concerns about hybrids they should really take the time and do that stuff well.

I wouldn't like to see my hybrids like the wow beta paladin become the fotm pownmobile every 3 or 4 balance stuff.
Before they even touch a single code line they should sit down, set perfect weapon philosophies and stick to.

There is no reason why projectiles are better over all at sniping has at point blanc with ridiculous fitting requirements in ships having more pg/cap they have slots to use it. I'm not saying nerf Minie they work fine so don't touch it, the simple balance of hybrids will make them less fotm so let them has they are.

If with large auto canons and a good fit I can project good dmg (not optimal) at 25+km and do extreme dmg at point blank then how can you fix hybrids or say lasers are fotm thx to scorch?

-whatever you'll do is make them like autos with more optimal and less fall off. I don't think we need balance one to unbalance another like wow, we need something that sticks to the Gallente philosophy and doesn't have the enormous drawbacks we have right now and for this they must start by the ships bonus, fitting requirements and mods/rigs drawbacks and then yes some extra dps because blasters should melt "ya" face and rails should be competitive with lasers and artys at sniping stuff, but means also ability to track at point blank witch they don't have (they do, in paper or eft that's all).

We can always discuss but at the end of the line I wouldn't like hybrids -witch are the most advanced gun type with lasers- become like artys and autos today, every one uses them even loosing ships bonus just because they have better results. By the way you shouldn't be able to fit a gun system in any other ship than it's own race except pirate or dedicated ones.

End wall of text.

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.05.15 16:18:00 - [50]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Pick your own choice. There are more paremeters in choosing ships then only dps.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.15 16:27:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Straight Edged
Numbers ************ again...


Those are paaaaaaaaper numbers.

Let me say it again: PAAAAAAAAPER NUMBERS

paper numbers, paper numbers, paper numbers.

I you didn't get it yet....

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.05.15 16:37:00 - [52]
 

Who cares. Both eft warrioring and FOTMonning are both silly arguments anyways.

"Ship A is good since everyone uses it"
"Ship B is good since eft gives good numbers"

Just fly any Bship you want. Dominix are insanely good as a hybrid boat.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.05.15 16:43:00 - [53]
 

The defining feature of rails is range. It is therefore absurd that the ship with the most gun DPS around 240 km is not a railboat. There's also a secondary issue with the minimum warp-to distance of 150 km.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2011.05.15 17:49:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
The defining feature of rails is range. It is therefore absurd that the ship with the most gun DPS around 240 km is not a railboat. There's also a secondary issue with the minimum warp-to distance of 150 km.


the definition of rails = range is respected until you start comparing rails to tachs wich they are on their own class of weapons

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.05.15 18:46:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Gypsio III
The defining feature of rails is range. It is therefore absurd that the ship with the most gun DPS around 240 km is not a railboat. There's also a secondary issue with the minimum warp-to distance of 150 km.


the definition of rails = range is respected until you start comparing rails to tachs wich they are on their own class of weapons
That argument really holds no water specifically BECAUSE they're in a class of their own. When you compare 2 weapon types and how they perform at a certain job (in this case sniping at the edge of lock range) you take the best ship for the job, fit it with the best weapons/mods for the job, and compare the 2. You can't just say "oh well they're in a class of their own" any time someone tries to compare something to tachyons, because with that logic they could be doing 10k DPS out to 250 and they would still be balanced just fine, because there's nothing else to compare them with.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.05.15 21:42:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Gypsio III
The defining feature of rails is range. It is therefore absurd that the ship with the most gun DPS around 240 km is not a railboat. There's also a secondary issue with the minimum warp-to distance of 150 km.


the definition of rails = range is respected until you start comparing rails to tachs wich they are on their own class of weapons
When you compare 2 weapon types and how they perform at a certain job (in this case sniping at the edge of lock range) you take the best ship for the job, fit it with the best weapons/mods for the job, and compare the 2.


Exactly. Tachyons may well be in a league of their own, but you pick the best tool for the job. And the fact is that an tachy Apoc does more damage than a rail Rokh almost to the lock range. This means that there's a problem with Tachyons, rails, the Rokh or the Apocalypse.

Joss56
Gallente
Unleashed' Fury
Posted - 2011.05.15 23:52:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Joss56 on 16/05/2011 00:02:47
Originally by: Straight Edged
"Ship A is good since everyone uses it"
"Ship B is good since eft gives good numbers"


Let me try ... both T2 fit, k?

I = Me takes his full rack blaster null+void mega pvp fit local rep web/scram

K?

"X" Came with his cane RFT EMP full rack autos pvp fit shield tank, web scram

We = both of us

So: We engage the same target, HE (him, the other guy) has one volley +them me (targeting delay)

Me (I) Overheats his full rack of neutrons T2 Void in and shoots stuff between 8 and 18km

He (the other guy or him has you want) does same, he goes just faster.

Kill mail says my overheated T2 neutrons with T2 ammo (they still managed to miss with linear trajectory...) are first with about 13K dmg

That's it, blasters are OP !! or not, see above several times then read below:

The other guy (he or him has you wish) is second dmg dealer with 12.5K dmg. Indeed, autos suxx.

Your graph about theoretical dps are just crap. If even after this last effort you can't understand hybrids/blasters are not fine, after every ones explanations, please follow Zymurgist advice and make your own thread about cruise missiles and stop trying to discuss about something you don't have a clue.

Do I think cruise missiles are crap?

I'll be happy to discuss with you in your Caldari/missiles thread, for the meanwhile we're talking about hybrids/blasters between users and people knowing what they are talking about.

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.05.16 03:02:00 - [58]
 

Who were talking about mega anyways?

And there is no "mega" in the graph. Im talking about dominix.

Dominix pareto dominates AC spewing ships in term of dps at any range. right from 0km to 60km.

No one's gonna help you if you fail at choosing ships. Why would the fight start out 8km-18km anyways? Megathron and Hyperion's are station camping ships, for both buffer or/and active tank. Its their job to hug stuff within 8km.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.05.16 04:07:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Straight Edged
Megathron and Hyperion's are station camping ships


The claim that they are ok because they do this passably is ******ed.

-Liang

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.05.16 06:06:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Straight Edged
Megathron and Hyperion's are station camping ships


The claim that they are ok because they do this passably is ******ed.

-Liang


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