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AntISGhey
Posted - 2011.05.11 14:58:00 - [1531]
 

Originally by: KFenn
Originally by: Furb Killer
So what you are saying is that you want a pvp arena?


I never said 'Arena'. I don't want some system where fixed numbers of pilots fight other pilots, unrestricted PvP is best. But jumpbridges effectively ruin any sort of fleet maneuvering. Trying to move your fleet around a constellation becomes meaningless if the enemy can just zip light-years away in an instant, and removes some of the more tactical side of fleets.

Back in my day we had to warp to gates at 15, and we had no jumpbridges. We managed just fine, with some smart piloting and general common sense.


Back in my day we had warp @ 10, but i suppose you were 'special'.

KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.05.11 14:59:00 - [1532]
 

Originally by: AntISGhey
Originally by: KFenn
Originally by: Furb Killer
So what you are saying is that you want a pvp arena?


I never said 'Arena'. I don't want some system where fixed numbers of pilots fight other pilots, unrestricted PvP is best. But jumpbridges effectively ruin any sort of fleet maneuvering. Trying to move your fleet around a constellation becomes meaningless if the enemy can just zip light-years away in an instant, and removes some of the more tactical side of fleets.

Back in my day we had to warp to gates at 15, and we had no jumpbridges. We managed just fine, with some smart piloting and general common sense.


Back in my day we had warp @ 10, but i suppose you were 'special'.


Was it 10? Eh, that was like 4-5 years ago, my memory fails me. Still, the point still stands.

FellRaven
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.05.11 14:59:00 - [1533]
 

Originally by: bitters much
Originally by: FellRaven

So why not wait to apply these changes until after our little SOV war? Timing is everything you know. CCP have not offered any explanation of why they need to do this now and not in say 2 months time.


What does it matter, in 2 month another war will be on and your JB network is history.





It matters because people can plan for it and have it in place in advance they don't need to wait for the change. Still haven't heard a compelling reason to do it now and not in 2 months.

AntISGhey
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:00:00 - [1534]
 

Does it? The game I remember 5 years ago was a lot different to what it is today.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:01:00 - [1535]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 15:06:08
Originally by: KFenn
ITT: Unholy 0.0 carebear rage. Seriously, 0.0 should be a PvP area, not somewhere to farm sites to make your pretty wallet numbers numbers grow bigger. Don't like it, farm Level 4s in Highsec, or learn to PvP.

GJ on the plan to finally nerf carebear 0.0 CCP, it's long overdue.

Hard to PVP without ships. It doesn't matter how much isk you have saved up running lvl 4s on alts if there aren't ships for sale. Unless you think people should have to go back to empire to buy ships on a regular basis. Because no one in their right mind is going to mine low-ends in null sec, so anything CCP does to make it more difficult to move around null is going to drive up the price of low ends and thus ships.

Originally by: AntISGhey
Does it? The game I remember 5 years ago was a lot different to what it is today.

Null sec had a couple thousand characters living in it 5 years ago. Now there are tens of thousands.

Originally by: AntISGhey
Back in my day we had warp @ 10, but i suppose you were 'special'.

Back in my day, I had hundreds of bookmarks because it gave me an edge, in that I could travel faster than my prey. That wasn't a good game mechanic. It was cheating, but sanctioned cheating.

Jenn aSide
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:04:00 - [1536]
 

Edited by: Jenn aSide on 11/05/2011 15:04:48

Originally by: Bagehi

Hard to PVP without ships. It doesn't matter how much isk you have saved up running lvl 4s on alts if there aren't ships for sale. Unless you think people should have to go back to empire to buy ships on a regular basis. Because no one in their right mind is going to mine low-ends in null sec, so anything CCP does to make it more difficult to move around null is going to drive up the price of low ends and thus ships.



lol, CCP, masters of unintended consequences.....

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:04:00 - [1537]
 

Originally by: knobber Jobbler

Question: Why is CCP making these changes?
Answer: To much ISK in game.

Question: Why is there to much ISK in game?
Answer: Because of Bots and RMT.

Question: Why does DRF have so many super capitals?
Answer: Botted ISK.

Question: Why is DRF outpeforming the NC
Answer: Botted ISK to pay PL and replace losses without issue.

Question: Why is DRF leaving the South to take over the North?
Answer: Because there bot accounts are being banned and they want the tech moons to make income.

Everyone else living in Null Sec knows this, the only people who seem to be ignoring the effects of ill gotten ISK is CCP. CCP then makes changes because there is to much ISK and to many capitals in null sec so they make changes affecting all players rather than dealing solely with the players who have to much ISK.

Now you're gonna say this is tears, its not, its just a game. Its pointing out that without the ill gotten gains of botting the DRF wouldn't have been able to pay PL to fight for them and wouldn't be able to field supercapital blobs at will.

I know others are also guilty of botting and RMT so its not all on DRF's shoulders but lets face facts for a moment.


+9000


AntISGhey
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:06:00 - [1538]
 

CCP should really post their vision of what they think nul-sec should be like and save themselves threads like this and the playerbase the time their wasting on Supercaps online.

I personally dont believe they have any vision for any area in EvE and never will, else after 8 years wouldn't we be there by now?

Fix Lag
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:08:00 - [1539]
 

The DRF actually bots minerals, just an FYI. Although I guess with Vale and Geminate back in their hands they'll be botting ISK too.

KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:08:00 - [1540]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 15:02:40
Hard to PVP without ships. It doesn't matter how much isk you have saved up running lvl 4s on alts if there aren't ships for sale. Unless you think people should have to go back to empire to buy ships on a regular basis. Because no one in their right mind is going to mine low-ends in null sec, so anything CCP does to make it more difficult to move around null is going to drive up the price of low ends and thus ships.


Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:08:00 - [1541]
 

Originally by: FellRaven
Originally by: bitters much
Originally by: FellRaven

So why not wait to apply these changes until after our little SOV war? Timing is everything you know. CCP have not offered any explanation of why they need to do this now and not in say 2 months time.


What does it matter, in 2 month another war will be on and your JB network is history.





It matters because people can plan for it and have it in place in advance they don't need to wait for the change. Still haven't heard a compelling reason to do it now and not in 2 months.


Because Hilmar loves NC tears is my guess Laughing

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:09:00 - [1542]
 

Originally by: FellRaven


It matters because people can plan for it and have it in place in advance they don't need to wait for the change. Still haven't heard a compelling reason to do it now and not in 2 months.


Screw two months. Delay it until the already-identified and timetabled 0.0 review. Still haven't heard a compelling reason why it has to be done now and not then.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:10:00 - [1543]
 

Originally by: AntISGhey
CCP should really post their vision of what they think nul-sec should be like and save themselves threads like this and the playerbase the time their wasting on Supercaps online.

I personally dont believe they have any vision for any area in EvE and never will, else after 8 years wouldn't we be there by now?

This might be true. Their "plans" seem to have a worse attention span than a kid with ADD on crack.

SmashTech
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:10:00 - [1544]
 

Originally by: KFenn
Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.


Hell if I wanted to do this I'd live in highsec where nobody can shoot at me without getting killed--

Wait that's what already happens.

KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:12:00 - [1545]
 

Originally by: SmashTech
Originally by: KFenn
Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.


Hell if I wanted to do this I'd live in highsec where nobody can shoot at me without getting killed--

Wait that's what already happens.


Well if an alliance doesn't want to facilitate ship building, then they get no ships. It's easy to produce in nullsec, so long as you have a semi-decent industrial win who is supported properly by the alliance.

Messy Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:12:00 - [1546]
 

NC were the biggest factor in shaping the way our game plays today and yet they have the audacity to start whining when it backfires on them.

A long time ago when small roaming gangs were viable, whether they be from hostile neighbours or roams from empire, the NC(average member had poor pvp knowledge) they had the option of engaging the enemy in similar ships and similar size fleets, thus learning and getting better.

Instead they chose to get as many members in fleet as possible, in the biggest ship possible they could. I was a member of the NC then and all too often a small sized roam would enter our space, only to find us undock a fleet of bs's and carriers to engage their frig/cruiser gangs. Guess what the NC never got better at pvp and the style of bring your biggest ship/most members became the weapon of choice.

However having more members in your fleet means having to have more systems for the average members to make isk. With the size of alliances needed you had to have vast amounts of space to keep them all happy. With so much space you become far too dependant on having that JB network keeping your alliance/power bloc moving.

Even now with this diluted JB nerf you won't get the hint. You won't trim the fat, optimise your logistics by reducing member numbers and amount of space you hold. You won't raise your skill level and try to fight smaller entities with higher pvp knowledge thus raising your own(not when the people at the top are making so much isk)

So am I mad? Not at all I'm finding it ****ing hilarious that the game you helped to shape is coming to bite you on the ass. Here's hoping that those members in the NC that would love it to be so much more, actually gain a foothold in the alliances but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:13:00 - [1547]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 15:16:19
Originally by: KFenn
Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 15:02:40
Hard to PVP without ships. It doesn't matter how much isk you have saved up running lvl 4s on alts if there aren't ships for sale. Unless you think people should have to go back to empire to buy ships on a regular basis. Because no one in their right mind is going to mine low-ends in null sec, so anything CCP does to make it more difficult to move around null is going to drive up the price of low ends and thus ships.


Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.

If you pay the same for mining low ends/hr as high ends/hr, you will increase the price of ships dramatically. That is the issue. The higher the cost of ships, the higher the replacement cost, the less PVP.

Originally by: Messy Beaver
NC were the biggest factor in shaping the way our game plays today and yet they have the audacity to start whining when it backfires on them.

A long time ago when small roaming gangs were viable, whether they be from hostile neighbours or roams from empire, the NC(average member had poor pvp knowledge) they had the option of engaging the enemy in similar ships and similar size fleets, thus learning and getting better.

A long time ago the same amount of null sec space was populated by a fraction of the characters currently living in it. Population density is up, therefore numbers fielded is up. If you want low numbers, the population density has to go back down. Either people have to quit or there has to be more space.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:13:00 - [1548]
 

Originally by: Fix Lag
The DRF actually bots minerals, just an FYI. Although I guess with Vale and Geminate back in their hands they'll be botting ISK too.


They run combat bots and kill drones, then their salvager bots scoop the drone poo. Then they RMT the hell outta everything.

Mibad
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:14:00 - [1549]
 

CCP do you have any lipstick? Cause I'd like to atleast look pretty before you F*** me again.

First the anom nerfs and now jb nerfs. All you are doing is driving more players away from null sec, I expect even more people to rage quit over the endless nerfs you have been throwing out recently. You claim you want more people living in nullsec, but in reality you are just driving them away.

This doesn't hurt alliances, this hurts the average pilot. Force projection is made with titan bridges and cyno blobs.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:19:00 - [1550]
 

Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Fix Lag
The DRF actually bots minerals, just an FYI. Although I guess with Vale and Geminate back in their hands they'll be botting ISK too.


They run combat bots and kill drones, then their salvager bots scoop the drone poo. Then they RMT the hell outta everything.

Look at Zydrine prices. Back in my day, when we farmed a drone 5/10 plex to build ships, zydrine sold for around 5000/unit. Takes a lot of high end mining/drone plexes farming to get it this low. You'd think someone in CCP would notice how the balance of minerals has dramatically changed.

Megy Feel
V.L.A.S.T.
V.L.A.S.T
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:19:00 - [1551]
 

Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Fix Lag
The DRF actually bots minerals, just an FYI. Although I guess with Vale and Geminate back in their hands they'll be botting ISK too.


They run combat bots and kill drones, then their salvager bots scoop the drone poo. Then they RMT the hell outta everything.


Ironyoverload... check your alliance mates, then check the drama on your own forums.


Medarr
Amarr
Ghost Festival
Naraka.
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:22:00 - [1552]
 

pffft do you guys at CCP even listen to your playerbase??? Stop messing with our 0.0

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:24:00 - [1553]
 

Edited by: Naomi Wildfire on 11/05/2011 15:25:17
Sorry to say boys, but i welcome these changes.

While in the NC, traveling was fast and very safe (its already safe enough if you know how to without JBs), now you just need to add 1 jump per previous 2 jumps.

Its also a little boost to non space holders since you just need to keep an eye on 1 JB, also you dont need to worry about the opponent to bridge capitals into a cyno jammed system.


The only thing i want to add is, If BOs are allowed to use JBs, JFs should too. Those two are the only exceptions of jump drive equipped ships who can use jumpgates.


Quote:
pffft do you guys at CCP even listen to your playerbase??? Stop messing with our 0.0

What exactly is "your" 0.0, i thought its CCPs game. Just because you claim stuff doesnt make it yours in the end.

I say 0.0 is mine and i like the changes.

raging star
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:25:00 - [1554]
 

Edited by: raging star on 11/05/2011 15:25:26
OK i don't know why i am doing this since CCP has proven time and time again that they don't give **** what we think or want, but here it goes. Leave 0.0 alone you are just F**King it up! don't touch it, don't look at it, if you have IDEA about tweaking something slap yourselves outside the head and walk away. The sactums where good, the jump bridge network was good. Places that required your attention and are completely ignore are HIGH SEC AND LOW SEC (specially low sec), low sec has no real incentive to be there and is really just pointless. This little tweak you guys have being doing have completely screw it up, we HAD a balance 0.0 and where having fun so why F**K with it!. we where fat and happy killing each other and having good fights but that slowly going away thanks to CCP you are a bunch of idiotsEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very MadEvil or Very Mad.

Messy Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:26:00 - [1555]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 15:16:19
Originally by: KFenn
Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 15:02:40
Hard to PVP without ships. It doesn't matter how much isk you have saved up running lvl 4s on alts if there aren't ships for sale. Unless you think people should have to go back to empire to buy ships on a regular basis. Because no one in their right mind is going to mine low-ends in null sec, so anything CCP does to make it more difficult to move around null is going to drive up the price of low ends and thus ships.


Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.

If you pay the same for mining low ends/hr as high ends/hr, you will increase the price of ships dramatically. That is the issue. The higher the cost of ships, the higher the replacement cost, the less PVP.

Originally by: Messy Beaver
NC were the biggest factor in shaping the way our game plays today and yet they have the audacity to start whining when it backfires on them.

A long time ago when small roaming gangs were viable, whether they be from hostile neighbours or roams from empire, the NC(average member had poor pvp knowledge) they had the option of engaging the enemy in similar ships and similar size fleets, thus learning and getting better.

A long time ago the same amount of null sec space was populated by a fraction of the characters currently living in it. Population density is up, therefore numbers fielded is up. If you want low numbers, the population density has to go back down. Either people have to quit or there has to be more space.



Your space was dense due to the blob living in it, however vast swathes of 0.0 is empty. There's your next hint sonny, more optimised alliances lead to more newer entities setting up in their own little corner of EMPTY space because the option of joining the big blobber reduces.

Oh and if your space was so dense why was most of your space empty most of the time?

Yeep
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:27:00 - [1556]
 

Edited by: Yeep on 11/05/2011 15:29:05
Originally by: KFenn

Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.


So what you're saying is the entire economy should revolve around people being paid to do awful boring things in dangerous places. You know this is a game right?

Originally by: Messy Beaver

Your space was dense due to the blob living in it, however vast swathes of 0.0 is empty. There's your next hint sonny, more optimised alliances lead to more newer entities setting up in their own little corner of EMPTY space because the option of joining the big blobber reduces.

Oh and if your space was so dense why was most of your space empty most of the time?


Vast areas of 0.0 are empty because they're worthless. Explain again why these new small alliances want to spend billions of isk setting up in space with no advantage over empire?

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:27:00 - [1557]
 

Finally a much-needed nerf to 0.0 carebears. Good thing.

Also, loving the tears.

Now only drop highsec incursion income (which is ridiculously high) so it's still worth living in 0.0 compared to highsec.

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:29:00 - [1558]
 

Originally by: raging star
Edited by: raging star on 11/05/2011 15:25:26
OK i don't know why i am doing this ... but ... we ... are a bunch of idiotsEvil or Very Mad].


Fixed

Again the only whines come from Space holders, mostly on NC side. You think its balanced and ok, but not everyone might think just like you.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:31:00 - [1559]
 

Edited by: Cellistara on 11/05/2011 15:36:51
Originally by: Megy Feel
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Fix Lag
The DRF actually bots minerals, just an FYI. Although I guess with Vale and Geminate back in their hands they'll be botting ISK too.


They run combat bots and kill drones, then their salvager bots scoop the drone poo. Then they RMT the hell outta everything.


Ironyoverload... check your alliance mates, then check the drama on your own forums.




So? Were talking about DRF, the alliance with more supers than any other in the game, hell I'd bet everyone has a titan AND a super. Their members are paid cash to run their bots, they RMT hundreds of billions of isk. They threw 600 billion at PL and supply them with supers like its nothing. An alliance whos idea of sov warfare involves illegally DDOSing the opposing factions forums, ts servers and jabbers. Yes this isn't nearly as bad as a guy trying to get himself a new BS for some pew pew. Not that I'll ever support botting, I mined and ratted for my isk which sucked ass and is worse now. If you want to get rid of casual botters, make pve suck less. Still wont get rid of groups like DRF, too much real world cash there.

Messy Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.11 15:36:00 - [1560]
 

Originally by: Yeep
Edited by: Yeep on 11/05/2011 15:29:05
Originally by: KFenn

Well, then you need people who will mine low-ends. Do mining ops where people get paid the same, no matter what they mine. Your issue there isn't that the things you need are unavailable to you, it just you have no willing pilots. Make them willing with incentives.


So what you're saying is the entire economy should revolve around people being paid to do awful boring things in dangerous places. You know this is a game right?

Originally by: Messy Beaver

Your space was dense due to the blob living in it, however vast swathes of 0.0 is empty. There's your next hint sonny, more optimised alliances lead to more newer entities setting up in their own little corner of EMPTY space because the option of joining the big blobber reduces.

Oh and if your space was so dense why was most of your space empty most of the time?


Vast areas of 0.0 are empty because they're worthless. Explain again why these new small alliances want to spend billions of isk setting up in space with no advantage over empire?


If the space is useless then why does your alliance hold it? Low income content in other areas of the game is useless to the majority of the player base, but to some its a stepping stone to greater things. That option for the low level newly created alliances isnt there, unless they attach themselves to one of the power blocs.


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