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JaseNZ
Gallente
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:12:00 - [1441]
 

Do not like the upcoming changes :(

Alissa Solette
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:12:00 - [1442]
 

Originally by: knobber Jobbler
I know others are also guilty of botting and RMT so its not all on DRF's shoulders but lets face facts for a moment.


I'm sure DRF is botting just as much as NC or at least I really hope they are because otherwise it would mean that there are seriously 50k people that actually enjoy grinding ISK in 0.0. To me that's even more scary then bots tbh.

All the botting accusations aside: bottom line is NC have massive super fleets at their disposal that could rival DRF but they refuse to use them outside of sanctums.

That makes them feel impotent and weak (which isn't far from the truth) so instead of asking themselves how they can change it they instead ask CCP to nerf whatever new super weapon is being used against them.

I'm not trying to encourage people botting or exploiting the old static plexes (54min Overseer respawn instead of 24h) like the Russians in RA did for literally years but lets be honest: it's a sand box and everyone has the same possibilities. Some people make use of those possibilities and dominate the game... others cry about life being unfair.

Either way, asking CCP to nerf stuff because your alliances are to weak, timid, badly organized or too poor (or any combination thereof) is definitely not the way to win any conflicts. Kicking/ganking all super pilots that don't want to risk their capitals outside of Anoms might be a better idea.. I dunno.

Fact is DRF+PL field supers and NC whine a lot (for whatever reasons).

Lyric Lahnder
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:13:00 - [1443]
 

For the first time in a while I feel sorry for the people who live in null sec.

I have tried three separate times to live and work in null sec in the larger alliances and always left broke. Unless you own moons you cant make any money in null sec unless you can spend your entire day playing eve which is impossible for any one with a job/wife/kids. It seems the anomaly nerf made this much worse.

Im in a chat channel of people who run missions together(in other words Huge fuzzy care bears) and we've seen a huge influx of people from larger null sec alliances who have packed their bags and returned to empire because its impossible to make money out their and fight wars. Im certain this change will also see this number increase.

So... Your trying to increase conflict in null sec and on top of that your also nerfing rewards to players in null sec. Which means people will fight more(lose more) and have fewer recourses to replace it.

Im not entirely sure this what you want to go for ccp. When ever I try to explain to some one why eve is different from other MMO's I explain the dynamics and politics of null sec. Now it seems you are driving people away from one of the major things that makes eve unique.

I think im starting to understand what Iteration as in (ship iteration as mentioned by the csm) means. If your dont do balancing and iteration the game becomes a huge tug of war between the groups of players: Care Bears vs Null sec people vs pirates in low sec vs merc's etc. They all want certain changes with in the frame work of the game that benefit them but when it happens it screws one or all of the other groups.

CCP is Unique because it stress' its more then the money it makes and actually gives a damn what the players think. You need to listen to the CSM well when they head up there to see you. If this thread on the JB change doesn't change your mind about your current approach to null sec perhaps they will.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:15:00 - [1444]
 

Originally by: Feyleaf

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


did your parents ignore you much.. must be hard being ignored like that, get more friends then destroy enemy infrastructure.. whats the problem.. you know diplomacy is also a big part of eve.. alot bigger then say.. spies =)

you could also roam more in places that more suited to your fleet capabilities?



First of all, personal insults just make you look childish.

You need to understand that there's lots of different valid playstyles in 0.0 and that roaming gangs SHOULD be a valid way to get fights for those that don't enjoy the horrible structure shooting and the lagtastic 500v500 battles. Some people prefer the tactics and coordination of small gangs instead of the lock primary+F1 of fleet battles. To each his own.

Getting titan bridged and blobbed to death is actually more fun than being simply ignored. When you get bridged on, it's still possible to ninja quite a few kills off the blob. 0.0 was never intended as highsec 2.0, PvE and money making are fine, but residents should need to defend their space and force the intruders to leave.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:18:00 - [1445]
 

Why doesn't anyone seem to get what null-sec means. High sec you have concord, low sec you only have gate guns, null sec you have none of this. Null sec means none of the security of high or low sec. If 0.0 has been too safe it means you campers and gankers just suck at EVE. People in 0.0 can make space as safe as they want, if you want total chaos where its every man for himself, and no one is ever safe, remove sov completely.

Feyleaf
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:18:00 - [1446]
 

Edited by: Feyleaf on 11/05/2011 13:23:07
my prob is the 7 days

when they take ages to implement things that are not a nerf
and advertise it years in advance.

The changes themselves might be fun.. glad i have a ship with jumpdrives tho.

Smallgang is a valid tactic.. probably not soo much for you guys in a well organized alliance's core systems.. i see nothing wrong with that.

Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:25:00 - [1447]
 

I for one welcome back nullsec space that looks somewhat like 2005/06/07 nullsec space :D
Should have completely removed jump brigdes.

There were alliances with 1000s of members before jump bridges living in nullsec.
Compared to all the “OMG MY GAMEPLY IS RUINED NOW” whinys on the forums here, the guys of past nullsec alliances were pr0.


Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:27:00 - [1448]
 

Originally by: Feyleaf
Edited by: Feyleaf on 11/05/2011 13:21:31
Edited by: Feyleaf on 11/05/2011 13:20:25
my prob is the 7 days

when they take ages to implement things that are not a nerf
and advertise it years in advance.

The changes themselves might be fun.. glad i have a ship with jumpdrives tho.

Smallgang is a valid tactic.. probably not soo much for you guys in a well organized alliance's core systems.. i see nothing wrong with that.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for cheap ganks all the time or even and fair fights. I just want some action. I want to be blobbed, to be chased, etc. I don't like RL examples, but this one is quite appropriate: If 4 guys on the highway are shooting all the cars that are passing there, the army won't be broadcasting on radio/TV to avoid the highway until the terrorists get bored, they will freakin' shoot them down ASAP. It should be the same in sov 0.0 and this JB nerf FINALLY gives a way to roaming gangs to become so annoying that the residents might choose to go and kill them. It's not a big small gang pvp boost, but it's still quite welcome.

Feyleaf
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:28:00 - [1449]
 

Edited by: Feyleaf on 11/05/2011 13:30:12
Originally by: Darod Zyree
I for one welcome back nullsec space that looks somewhat like 2005/06/07 nullsec space :D
Should have completely removed jump brigdes.

There were alliances with 1000s of members before jump bridges living in nullsec.
Compared to all the “OMG MY GAMEPLY IS RUINED NOW” whinys on the forums here, the guys of past nullsec alliances were pr0.




If all the non-pro eve players left 0.0 then the pro's wouldnt look so pro.. would only have eachother to fight and probably quit in shame coz of killboard without "padding" Cool

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:29:00 - [1450]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.

They won't go fight them in the same vaga and cynabal ten man gang setup you use, they'll come with three or four or five times your number and chase you away. Cause they're not there to dogfight. And then you'll go back to npc null. You know, where you're safe.

I like roaming around as much as the next guy, but why is it *right* that twenty guys should be able to get a fight out of sov holding alliances whenever they feel like it? Where's that sense of entitlement coming from?

Until we have a 'crops and fields' mechanic in place, one way of getting roaming gang fights is to set them up with other people who "don't enjoy the horrible structure shooting and the lagtastic 500v500 battles."

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:30:00 - [1451]
 

I, for one, support the changes to Jump Bridges. The complicated 2 JB / system loops allowed for some very safe travel of ships like freighters and industrials. And while this is a significant change to 0.0 alliances that rely heavily on JB networks, I feel it's one for the best.

Finally smaller gangs reasonably disrupt the supply lines of larger alliances and actually cause the 'Death by a thousand paper cuts' that many people have wanted to be able to cause.

Titans no longer being able to bridge in is also nice, it means that cyno jammed systems need to cycle down the jammer to get more titans in.

Overall good changes, there was a hint in this thread of removing unscannable ships in some way. While I agree perfect unscannable-ness is broken, I'd like to see some resistance to being scanned down still exist. *Crosses fingers that those changes take till 2014*

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:31:00 - [1452]
 

Originally by: Alissa Solette


I'm sure DRF is botting just as much as NC or at least I really hope they are because otherwise it would mean that there are seriously 50k people that actually enjoy grinding ISK in 0.0. To me that's even more scary then bots tbh.


Yes, people do grind up to get ISK *shock*. Its probably the most common method. I don't think many enjoy it but if you stick to the EULA its one of the best methods short of industry or Wormholes (which need an income nerf) to make ISK. Occasionally you get an officer kill and sell a mod to a mission runner in Jita for extortionate amounts.


Originally by: Alissa Solette


I'm not trying to encourage people botting or exploiting the old static plexes (54min Overseer respawn instead of 24h) like the Russians in RA did for literally years but lets be honest: it's a sand box and everyone has the same possibilities. Some people make use of those possibilities and dominate the game... others cry about life being unfair.



So actually what your saying is its actually ok to bot because other people do. Its a sand box and some abide by the rules and other don't. DRF is only moving space because they cannot bot in the South any more and the only reason they can afford to move space is because of the botted ISK. Now stop trying to argue against this. Its plain simple fact. How else can they afford to field fleets of 200+ supercaps and pay 600b to PL to fight for them?

CCP needs to address that, then look at 0.0 changes. Doing 0.0 changes before they've taken away the ISK is a bad move.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:31:00 - [1453]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


Why would residents form up? The campers will just run away like they always do, no fight whatsoever. Hell if they even see each other it would be a goddamn miracle. No one invades 0.0 to fight, they invade 0.0 to pad their kb so they can brag about being elite pvp.

Seth Rock
Caldari
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:32:00 - [1454]
 

fu** the h8rs CCP you're doing great Wink this has been a long time coming

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:33:00 - [1455]
 

Originally by: Ravcharas
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.

They won't go fight them in the same vaga and cynabal ten man gang setup you use, they'll come with three or four or five times your number

I'm fine with that, it's an improvement over the current situation.

Feyleaf
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:35:00 - [1456]
 

Edited by: Feyleaf on 11/05/2011 13:38:08
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


Why would residents form up? The campers will just run away like they always do, no fight whatsoever. Hell if they even see each other it would be a goddamn miracle. No one invades 0.0 to fight, they invade 0.0 to pad their kb so they can brag about being elite pvp.



Even with almost similar numbers(cmon you guys are elite?) we almost always fowmup and hostiles leave or hide.
Most 0.0 roamers dont want actual fights much.. looks bad on killboard stats.
Some of us allround players are pretty bored with that too.. maybe you have your reason right there?
I cant see this changing coz of patch, we will just see fast or cloaky untouchables semi-afk looking for cheap kills mostly.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:36:00 - [1457]
 

Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


Why would residents form up? The campers will just run away like they always do, no fight whatsoever. Hell if they even see each other it would be a goddamn miracle. No one invades 0.0 to fight, they invade 0.0 to pad their kb so they can brag about being elite pvp.

As I said, it's possible to ninja kills off the blob with intelligent bubble placing, snipers, fast ships, etc. Gatecamping is only a way to get a fight, it's not the kind of pvp that people come to 0.0 for (well, for most people).

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:36:00 - [1458]
 

Originally by: Walextheone
My god every dude in lowsec or w-space have to watch their surrounding all the time, keeping you on edge.

You lazy *****ing nullsecers who complain so much, you really want 0.0 to be "safe" all the time? Organize convoys, scout or be creative.

As it seems now you want: ISK at no risk and safe travels. Sounds more like highsec is your game then


0.0 is safe because the people who live there make it safe. Territory is taken and held and intel is passed on to make it safe.

If you're neut or red in the wrong space its very very unsafe. The whole point of sov is to take space, keep it safe for your organisation and fight off invaders.

Think of it like this. I'm blue to Colonel Gaddafi. Your neutral. For me I can walk through Tripoli. For you, he'll get someone to kill you. However your blue to Nato, I'm red. Nato won't kill you (unless your British and the US are overhead in A10's) but they'll kill me. Do you see how this works yet?

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:36:00 - [1459]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Originally by: Ravcharas
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.

They won't go fight them in the same vaga and cynabal ten man gang setup you use, they'll come with three or four or five times your number

I'm fine with that, it's an improvement over the current situation.


There wont be any change. They will either wait a few minutes until you run away or form a gang and watch you cloak up or run away.

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:37:00 - [1460]
 

Originally by: Feyleaf
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


Why would residents form up? The campers will just run away like they always do, no fight whatsoever. Hell if they even see each other it would be a goddamn miracle. No one invades 0.0 to fight, they invade 0.0 to pad their kb so they can brag about being elite pvp.



Even with almost similar numbers(cmon you guys are elite?) we almost always fowmup and hostiles leave or hide.
Most 0.0 roamers dont want actual fights much.. looks bad on killboard stats.


Well yes, why take losses when you get people more upset by denying them a fight?

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:39:00 - [1461]
 

Originally by: Ghurthe

Well yes, why take losses when you get people more upset by denying them a fight?


Then why all the chestbeating and claims of pvp?


Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:40:00 - [1462]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Ghurthe

Well yes, why take losses when you get people more upset by denying them a fight?


Then why all the chestbeating and claims of pvp?




=P I'm not chest beating, but popping indy ships sure is fun.

Feyleaf
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:40:00 - [1463]
 

Edited by: Feyleaf on 11/05/2011 13:41:18
Originally by: Ghurthe
Originally by: Feyleaf
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


Why would residents form up? The campers will just run away like they always do, no fight whatsoever. Hell if they even see each other it would be a goddamn miracle. No one invades 0.0 to fight, they invade 0.0 to pad their kb so they can brag about being elite pvp.



Even with almost similar numbers(cmon you guys are elite?) we almost always fowmup and hostiles leave or hide.
Most 0.0 roamers dont want actual fights much.. looks bad on killboard stats.


Well yes, why take losses when you get people more upset by denying them a fight?


Exactly its about grief more then pvp for a large part of "pvp'ers"
while im not against griefing in eve the patch will not provide anymore actual smallgang-pvp only ganks primarily of newbieships.

Darod Zyree
Gallente
Zyree Holding
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:42:00 - [1464]
 

Originally by: knobber Jobbler
Originally by: Walextheone
My god every dude in lowsec or w-space have to watch their surrounding all the time, keeping you on edge.

You lazy *****ing nullsecers who complain so much, you really want 0.0 to be "safe" all the time? Organize convoys, scout or be creative.

As it seems now you want: ISK at no risk and safe travels. Sounds more like highsec is your game then


0.0 is safe because the people who live there make it safe. Territory is taken and held and intel is passed on to make it safe.

If you're neut or red in the wrong space its very very unsafe. The whole point of sov is to take space, keep it safe for your organisation and fight off invaders.

Think of it like this. I'm blue to Colonel Gaddafi. Your neutral. For me I can walk through Tripoli. For you, he'll get someone to kill you. However your blue to Nato, I'm red. Nato won't kill you (unless your British and the US are overhead in A10's) but they'll kill me. Do you see how this works yet?


No one is questioning standings between alliances, most of us just agree that neither Colonel Gaddafi/NATO should have means to travel (jump bridges) between countries (systems/regions) other then the normal highways everyone uses (star gates) :)

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:42:00 - [1465]
 

Originally by: Ghurthe
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Ghurthe

Well yes, why take losses when you get people more upset by denying them a fight?


Then why all the chestbeating and claims of pvp?




=P I'm not chest beating, but popping indy ships sure is fun.


Sure but the amount of stupid indy pilots is about the same as usual so there wont be more indy kills. Perhaps less if the stupid indy pilots go back to high sec.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:43:00 - [1466]
 

Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Yes, this will make gatecamps more frequent, but it gives a way to small gang pvpers to force 0.0 residents to form up (by bubbling a chokepoint) and go fight them instead of ignoring them like they do right now.

It's not *right* that 0.0 residents can simply ignore intruders.


Why would residents form up? The campers will just run away like they always do, no fight whatsoever. Hell if they even see each other it would be a goddamn miracle. No one invades 0.0 to fight, they invade 0.0 to pad their kb so they can brag about being elite pvp.

As I said, it's possible to ninja kills off the blob with intelligent bubble placing, snipers, fast ships, etc. Gatecamping is only a way to get a fight, it's not the kind of pvp that people come to 0.0 for (well, for most people).


Yeah those people stick to low sec, never see em in null. Just look at fountain, every system has a stealth bomber or cloaky t3. Combat ships never die to em, 99% of the time the only thing on their killboard is indys, salvagers, or miners. There's no pvp, there's just griefing noobs or industrialists who don't want to have to buy 5 gtcs a month in order to afford their pvp ships. There is no such thing as small gang pvp anymore in null, never will be and nothing will EVER change that.

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:45:00 - [1467]
 

Quote:

Exactly its about grief more then pvp for a large part of "pvp'ers"
while im not against griefing in eve the patch will not provide anymore actual smallgang-pvp only ganks primarily of newbieships.


Well yes, right now 0.0 alliances can't really be toppled by anything other than about 3 things.

1. Somebody clicking disband

2. Large numbers of super capitals destroying your ability to hold the space, with some sub caps to take out jammers.

3. Small demoralization of the alliance playerbase by hit and run tactics that are denied reprisal against.

Sooo for small gangs there IS no other way to mess with a large alliance other than to stick and move and cloak.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:46:00 - [1468]
 

Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Ghurthe
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Ghurthe

Well yes, why take losses when you get people more upset by denying them a fight?


Then why all the chestbeating and claims of pvp?




=P I'm not chest beating, but popping indy ships sure is fun.


Sure but the amount of stupid indy pilots is about the same as usual so there wont be more indy kills. Perhaps less if the stupid indy pilots go back to high sec.


Then who would build all the supers and titans?

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:48:00 - [1469]
 

Originally by: Ghurthe
Quote:

Exactly its about grief more then pvp for a large part of "pvp'ers"
while im not against griefing in eve the patch will not provide anymore actual smallgang-pvp only ganks primarily of newbieships.


Well yes, right now 0.0 alliances can't really be toppled by anything other than about 3 things.

1. Somebody clicking disband

2. Large numbers of super capitals destroying your ability to hold the space, with some sub caps to take out jammers.

3. Small demoralization of the alliance playerbase by hit and run tactics that are denied reprisal against.

Sooo for small gangs there IS no other way to mess with a large alliance other than to stick and move and cloak.


Small gangs have always been irrelevant in 0.0 and will continue to be irrelevant.

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:48:00 - [1470]
 

The reason why this was done, is understanable, maybe necessary.

There were times, where there was no JB, so it can be done without it, sure

Still, this is probably the worst way of "implementing" it.

Why kill all the convenience with your carelessness?



This is pretty much equal to:

Issue: 0.0 logistics are way too easy to do, everyone can do it
Solution: We will work this out, until then, we remove courrier contracts, just for the time until its really fixed...



There are countless ways of achieving what you want, why do you, CCP, pick the most simple, most useless, and most stupid one here?
This so much says: We do not really care, just pick the first idea that comes up, dont think it through, and do it.



This will do NOTHING, but ANNOY people, sad but true.

Maybe you should have asked someone who knows how to do it... got any "Yellow Pages" in Iceland?!


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