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Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:11:00 - [541]
 

Originally by: xttz
Originally by: CCP Fallout
If itís difficult catching people moving around, roaming/open world pvp becomes more sidelined, which weíre against

Let's be clear - this change does not promote player vs player, it promotes player versus ganker.
One of the primary draws of conquerable space is the ability to define your own transport and shortcuts. This is of huge importance to the casual 0.0 player who doesn't want to stress about getting an escort fleet everytime he moves his hauler full of salvage somewhere. The net effect of this change will be less casual eve players in 0.0, and eventually less opportunity for exactly the kind of 'PVP' you claim to promote.

Except these casual 0.0 players were the ones who were using jumpbridges in their t1 haulers carrying salvage and were not touched before. They were not contributing anything towards any pvp before, and if they go back to empire they're just as likely to be suicide ganked(probably moreso) as if they were carrying a week's worth of pve loot on jumpbridges(something that is worrying in itself). If this guy is as happy going back to highsec as he was in 0.0 speaks to me that he was not in fact contributing anything to the ~0.0 pvp experience~ and his/her presence will not be missed by anyone.
Quote:

Where are the mini-objectives promised for roaming gangs in conquerable 0.0 over eighteen months ago? Why aren't these gangs currently running around with the ability to disrupt jumpbridges and force people to use stargates? This is a hugely regressive step where roamers no longer have to use cunning or specialised ships to kill people outside their own towers, or disrupt their logistics, but instead the aim of their op becomes 'gank hauler on gate, go home'.


In many ways this *is* that change. If logistics are easier to interrupt then that accomplishes many of the goals...instead of having to bring 15 guys and sit cloaked near jumpbridges to get any chance at getting a kill, there is more variety in ways to find targets and disrupt the enemy. I don't get why you have it in your head that a hauler in 0.0 should be safe...it's not like there is suddenly going to be no one else in intel channels and no local channel. It is still very possible to ensure your safety, it just takes some effort or coordination instead of setting up a cyno jammer deathstar and knowing that it sits vigilant over every single gate you go through, ensuring your safety against any small gang
Quote:

Originally by: CCP Fallout
if youíre in an alliance with an intel channel and a semi-decent jumpbridge network, you have a pretty overwhelming degree of safety

This is entirely untrue. People get ganked using jumpbridges (and beacons) all the time. Bombers, HIC traps, drag bubbles, and supercapital drops happen every minute. Try looking for them instead of assuming they do not happen.
As someone who spends 90% of my time in eve doing exactly this, it's a whole lot more effort than pretty much any other kind of PVP and is incredibly risky. While people do absolutely get ganked on them all the time, it's almost entirely because of laziness on the part of the gankee. I can't tell you how many times I've seen myself or my alts reported in channels over and over and still having carriers etc. jump in to the jumpbridge/cynogen I'm camping. This isn't because it's ~so easy~ to camp cynogens, it's because people are stupid and don't read intel channels. If people actually read intel and scout themselves, it's nearly impossible to catch them.


Tonemaster B
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:11:00 - [542]
 

Can you run a Cyno Array thingie in a cyno jammed system? Yea may seem obvious.. but who knows..

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:12:00 - [543]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.

Purrp Ledone
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:12:00 - [544]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


CCP Soundwave, can you elaborate on whether this option was considered, and if so, why it was rejected?

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:13:00 - [545]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:13:00 - [546]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts


what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


They can speak, it's just all they can do.

Don't think the CSM is somehow not doing their job. But recognize, it never had any power to begin with. CCP decided that it was too much work trying to wade in forum BS, and so they had us vote for a body of people to fly up so they can get their complains in person. But they have no obligation to listen to what they say anymore than they do someone on the boards.

The only real problem with the whole setup is that the CSM membership is, essentially, a forum popularity contest, and not any sorta true cross-section of EVE. It took CCP's already limited view, and narrowed it even further.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:13:00 - [547]
 

Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 10/05/2011 21:14:37
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: JarJar Binkz
Originally by: Cellistara
What this will basically do is kill off 0.0 industry, specifically mining. We already deal with cloaky campers sitting in systems with any kind of industry index for weeks at a time, so to deal with it we take the jb from one mining system to another. Usually through a loop since systems with refining stations tend to be cyno jammed so fleets of hulks don't get a super dropped on us. Now no point in mining, no one will be able to mine enough ore to make the isk to buy new ships before the old ones explode. Can't jump a rorq anywhere since it has a jump drive, same with a JF. Guess it's wormholes or nothing now. We'll just buy everything from russian botters and import the rest from hisec, wait JF's again nvm.


NEWSFLASH: capitals can move without using gates or bridges

Basic instructions, have friend put a cyno up, right click on capacitor, click 'self destruct'

Currently: Bridges take caps to systems with cyno jammers
With change: If you can jump the ship itself, you can't enter a system with a JB

That's why the cyno jammer can be put offline, and online. The procedure takes five minute or so, but it requires communication with fellow spaceship friends, this is what CCP intends, I believe.

People when not in need tend to go each for himself, that beats the point of mmorpgism philosophy of Eve Online. When people need to communicate they create better content and it makes the game more interesting, even if it is more difficult.

Deal wiz it, you'll probably have more fun over it in the long run

Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:14:00 - [548]
 

Edited by: Cynthia Ysolde on 10/05/2011 21:13:49
Originally by: xttz
Originally by: CCP Fallout

Weíre currently looking into a long term plan for 0.0. I say long term, not because itís planned for 2014, but because the work will begin this winter and hopefully go on for a while


You're nerfing a key part of nullsec in June. You're starting work on our consolation prize 'this winter', meaning it'll be at least 9 months before we see any improvement. Nine months as people move away from living in from vulnerable conquerable stations with little benefit to NPC 0.0 stations with no downsides.

Let's balance the books a little. If conquerable space has to become even more open to NPC-space based gankers, give us the recourse to hit them back. Let use disable NPC 0.0 station services.

Here's a crazy idea - why not introduce your nerfs alongside a proper, well thought out rebalance of nullsec rather than shoving them in now and offering vague promises that something better is coming, hopefully!
Between this and the botched sanctum change, the only people left in conquerable space by that time will be the gankers wondering where all their targets went.


Botched sanctum change? I'd say it worked, I never really got why all 0.0 space got more or less equalized. Conquerable space already offers a pretty wide variety of boosts and I don't really get why you're selling them short. Cynojammers plus jumpbridges plus anomalies (no sanctums? remember back before dominion when everyone had to belt rat so you could support MAYBE 2 people per system ratting? probably not) plus CSAA's is still a pretty healthy bonus over npc space. If you don't like ~holding space~ then I'm sure there are quite a few groups who would be happy to take it and you can be a NPC SPACE GANKER based out of S-U8A4 once more.

WisdomPanda
Goatriders Horde
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:14:00 - [549]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It should be difficult to avoid PVP in nullsec.


And it is. Can you avoid fights if you want to? Of course you can, even you should be able to see the error of not enabling that. (Hint: We need to buy/build ships some how.) However, there are points where you can force a fight, which is the entire point in sov warfare.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Right now that's relatively easy due to jumpbridges being so convenient and easy to use.


So the fact that they are giant targets that require resources and PvP effort (holding sov) makes no nevermind to you?

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
The downside is that nullsec, an area that should be our pvp flagship, is relatively boring and lifeless when it comes to pvp, apart from territorial conquests.


You're right, the 100's of people we get through tribute (in non-wartime) alone causing all kinds of mischief are clearly lifeless drones. They clearly never see any kind of action. Changing JB's will totally make them suddenly produce GOOD PvP as opposed to your standard gank and run. (Because if ganking is your flagship PvP model, tell me now. I will seriously shut down my 6 accounts and go work through my massive steam library instead.)

But what happened to the whole "build your empire" talk? Has CCP changed it's focus? Because all this change does is create more gate gank situations. It's all it boils down to, no matter how you - or anyone else tries and sugar coat it. (Hint: Supercapitals Online will continue regardless) You either jump through with enough forces to break the camp, or get jita'd before you can even hope to use your brain to create an advantage. Until you create a situation where small scale PvP actually works correctly, complete with a full gate/local/nullsec rework, why bother?

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Hopefully this will shake it up a bit and create more opportunity for pvp.


Hopefully? Just like the anom changes radically changed everything we do in nullsec? Yeah...


You will find that almost all nullsec people (NC or otherwise) will support changes to nullsec, but NOT in the manner you are carrying on with. You clearly feel the need to do something, or risk being seen by empire whinners as not doing anything and nullsec people as not doing enough. But the truth is, you just need to stop, work it out FULLY, then release it as a package of sweeping changes. It is impossible for you to know the effects of these changes without knowing what you'll need to do in winter.

Seriously, just stop what you're doing until you have the time/resources to do it fully. Remember that whole "Do something well instead of rushing it" concept you agreed to? Yeah... start respecting it.

Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:14:00 - [550]
 

Originally by: Zamiq

Cause some people subscribed to the game after EvE was out for 4 years. These people have done a serious investment into the game and its understandable that they might not like a potential change that will double the time required to move goods/ships. Now, if you dont like these people complaining then fine you can stick with "there was eve before this and this change" but then you must realize that the people who are not happy with the change will leave and this in now way will increase the pvp rations in null.




Current travel from Taisy (lowsec Lonetrek) to UJY-HE (furthest part of Deklein):

Normal Gates: 7
Jumpbridges: 10


Theoretical future travel from Taisy (lowsec Lonetrek) to UJY-HE (furthest part of Deklein):

Normal Gates: 10
Jumpbridges: 9


This calculation was made using systems currently under sov by the holder alliances, accounting for viability of said systems for JB placement and based on a reasonable rearrangement of the current JB network. The actual layout may add or subtract two or three jumps from this, as my theoretical route is by no means optimal.

Martin Mckenna
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:14:00 - [551]
 

Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 10/05/2011 20:58:33
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It should be difficult to avoid PVP in nullsec. Right now that's relatively easy due to..
dramiels, cynabals, machs, ****ed ECCM mechanics making ships unprobable and cloaks with or without afk .. not to mention invulnerable npc stations.

Where's the balance?


The "invulnerable" npc space you talk about is to cater to groups of player who dont have 700 man blobs and they also help in the transition for new players from empire to 0.0. Without them it would not be possible to live in 0.0 without being in a major alliance.


Sidus Sarmiang
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:14:00 - [552]
 

For all the people that keep bleating on and on about how there was a time when there were no jump bridges, I'd like to point out a few things.


1. Much higher levels of mineral compression were possible.
2. Rats dropped a lot more in the way of minerals, and the ratio of mins to m3 was higher as well.
3. Mining was actually profitable in 0.0 so some needs were met that way. This was before the drone regions.
4. For a large part of it, carriers could put ships with stuff in their cargohold into their hangars, and could handle logistics easily that way.
5. Options for ganking were considerably more limited, it was much harder to hold a camp.

There were other factors, but on the whole logistics, alliance income, defense, personal income, and industry was very different between then and now. Anyone who's actually comparing circumstances has no idea how the game works aside from "buy a ship in highsec and go roaming around in 0.0"


ReK42
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:15:00 - [553]
 

Originally by: Holdout

This is the funniest thing I've read in weeks on the EVE forums.

This just in: Huge alliance has problem with 1 to 4 man gate camps, expects sympathy.



I guess you don't understand how small gatecamps work. It doesn't disrupt the alliance as a whole as any and all HD fleets would easily bowl over them if they were stupid enough to not safe up. What those small gangs do is **** up people who are too new to the game to know how to move about safely and, without jump bridges to cut them off, they can do it without any real risk of consequences because their smaller size and a single scout means an HD fleet will never catch them.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:15:00 - [554]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 10/05/2011 21:15:17
I'm genuinely interested to know how having to do a couple of warps between each bridge will "kill 0.0"

No, seriously. How? People live in hi-sec, lo-sec, NPC 0.0 and W-space with no jump bridges at all, but people who live in sov 0.0 can't get by day by day if they have to use a jump gate?

Excuse my scepticism. I trust you will understand if it seems more like you're making a fuss about a very minor change.

EDIT: and to answer the poster directly above: see my sig.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:15:00 - [555]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
Also the other serious problem is that JB's shouldn't bar rorquals and JFs, there's no gain to blocking them since that doesn't help you defend the cynojammed system and just again increases tedium.


Just FYI they have jump drives, and you can put up either beacons or light cynos for them, so, request denied.


Carry on.

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:15:00 - [556]
 

Originally by: Purrp Ledone
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


CCP Soundwave, can you elaborate on whether this option was considered, and if so, why it was rejected?


"Well, we thought about it a lot, but figured it didn't **** over the logi guys enough so decided to do something else instead."

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:15:00 - [557]
 

Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We did listen to the CSM. The changes were much further reaching initially. Their input had impact on the final product, which is vastly different than initially proposed a good while ago. To make it clear, there were also different views on the CSM regarding this change.

ShadowandLight
Amarr
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:17:00 - [558]
 

ya know whats driving me crazy currently about this

is that when we ***** and complain for years about making POS setups more manageable NOTHING happens. Even just allowing people to queue up anchoring and onlining of modules would make a HUGE HUGE difference yet you do NOTHING

But when you decide that JB's are too safe and you want more PVP, you implement that change in 2 WEEKS!!!!!

Now there are hundreds of alliance logistic people ( lets be honest, its gonna be done by maybe a dozen people ) who have to redo a CRAPTON of towers and then pull down the ones that are useless

You guys are really just totally out of touch with playing eve, its pathetic.

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:17:00 - [559]
 

Edited by: Vile rat on 10/05/2011 21:18:26
Edited by: Vile rat on 10/05/2011 21:17:59
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We were able to convince them to change what they were doing to a result that was moderately better in what you see now. We have a limited amount of power as player delegates, we can lobby, try and convince, but inevitably this is their game, their product and we are only a voice. This change was going in and this represents the best outcome that could have been achieved.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:17:00 - [560]
 

Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
For all the people that keep bleating on and on about how there was a time when there were no jump bridges, I'd like to point out a few things.


1. Much higher levels of mineral compression were possible.
2. Rats dropped a lot more in the way of minerals, and the ratio of mins to m3 was higher as well.
3. Mining was actually profitable in 0.0 so some needs were met that way. This was before the drone regions.
4. For a large part of it, carriers could put ships with stuff in their cargohold into their hangars, and could handle logistics easily that way.
5. Options for ganking were considerably more limited, it was much harder to hold a camp.

There were other factors, but on the whole logistics, alliance income, defense, personal income, and industry was very different between then and now. Anyone who's actually comparing circumstances has no idea how the game works aside from "buy a ship in highsec and go roaming around in 0.0"



1. there will still be JBs in game that will do exactly the same thing as they did before
2. there are JFs now
3. there are cyno beacons now so you don't even need to have an alt to do your JFing
4. see 2, it's still possible to undock in Jita and land within jump range of your capital
5. alliance logistic, alliance logistic, alliance logistic, at least goons don't need to travel to get new ships for fleets

ModeratedToSilence
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:17:00 - [561]
 

Originally by: Sidus Sarmiang
For all the people that keep bleating on and on about how there was a time when there were no jump bridges, I'd like to point out a few things.


1. Much higher levels of mineral compression were possible.
2. Rats dropped a lot more in the way of minerals, and the ratio of mins to m3 was higher as well.
3. Mining was actually profitable in 0.0 so some needs were met that way. This was before the drone regions.
4. For a large part of it, carriers could put ships with stuff in their cargohold into their hangars, and could handle logistics easily that way.
5. Options for ganking were considerably more limited, it was much harder to hold a camp.

There were other factors, but on the whole logistics, alliance income, defense, personal income, and industry was very different between then and now. Anyone who's actually comparing circumstances has no idea how the game works aside from "buy a ship in highsec and go roaming around in 0.0"




This is very true.

Akinetopsia
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:18:00 - [562]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
Also the other serious problem is that JB's shouldn't bar rorquals and JFs, there's no gain to blocking them since that doesn't help you defend the cynojammed system and just again increases tedium.


i'd tell you about cycling jammers but i'm sure you have personal knowledge of certain 28 days cycles.

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:18:00 - [563]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We did listen to the CSM. The changes were much further reaching initially. Their input had impact on the final product, which is vastly different than initially proposed a good while ago. To make it clear, there were also different views on the CSM regarding this change.


Did they range from "This is ****ing ******ed" to "This is COMPLETELY ****ing ******ed"?

Celistin
Salus Novus
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:18:00 - [564]
 

The biggest thing for me is keeping myself supplied.

I don't have a jump freighter and cyno alt. I have buy orders in jita for ship modules and I shuttle them up to nullsec so I can fit my ships.

The "l33t" pvp corps (lol @ PL) will roam around and pick off random solos because there are less JBs and the people who live there will have a harder time forming a counter fleet and then catching the l33t doodz.

This really looks like less gang vs gang pvp and more 20v2 ganking.

Which ultimately is all the leeters who don't own any space really want. They come out to nullsec, gank a couple miners and ratters and run away by the time a counter fleet is formed. It makes their KB look special but there isn't much actual "pvp" going on.

Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:19:00 - [565]
 

also let me reiterate for Rashi Nerha


let me introduce you to jump freighter

99% of alliance level logistics are already done with JFs. This will not change.

Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:19:00 - [566]
 

Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde
As someone who spends 90% of my time in eve doing exactly this, it's a whole lot more effort than pretty much any other kind of PVP and is incredibly risky. While people do absolutely get ganked on them all the time, it's almost entirely because of laziness on the part of the gankee. I can't tell you how many times I've seen myself or my alts reported in channels over and over and still having carriers etc. jump in to the jumpbridge/cynogen I'm camping. This isn't because it's ~so easy~ to camp cynogens, it's because people are stupid and don't read intel channels. If people actually read intel and scout themselves, it's nearly impossible to catch them.


That's not going to change.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:20:00 - [567]
 

Originally by: Purrp Ledone
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


CCP Soundwave, can you elaborate on whether this option was considered, and if so, why it was rejected?


A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:20:00 - [568]
 

Originally by: Celistin
The biggest thing for me is keeping myself supplied.

I don't have a jump freighter and cyno alt. I have buy orders in jita for ship modules and I shuttle them up to nullsec so I can fit my ships.

Join a player owned corporation, cooperate, help them with their logistic, be a useful and good member of your chosen spaceship society and there will be people with caps and cynos and whatnot to help you.


That's the point of a MULTIplayer game

Mattress Lover
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:21:00 - [569]
 

Have any of the devs making these changes ever played Eve in 0.0? I doubt it, they are moronic and show a complete lack of understanding of the game.

As regards force projection you are just making people do 30-40 jumps instead of 5-6. Thanks for making Eve more boring and time consuming - I am completely amazed at how stupid you are.

Listen to the CSM, that's why they're there, to protect our interests.

progodlegend
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:21:00 - [570]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We did listen to the CSM. The changes were much further reaching initially. Their input had impact on the final product, which is vastly different than initially proposed a good while ago. To make it clear, there were also different views on the CSM regarding this change.


Don't listen to the trolling, the changes are good, the CSM guys are just worried about their space empires. To quote The Mittani, "They're lieing to you." The CSM guys that is, 1 JB per system is not bad, just requires a couple of more jumps. This is the best boost to small gangs in a while though, it forces people to make defense fleets instead of not caring about their space and just playing other games. God forbid you have to actually log in except for CTA's.


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