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Korvin
Gallente
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:02:00 - [511]
 

Originally by: Madcapnl
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Zamiq

Again, you have not told us why this change will increase the chances of this non-consensual pvp that you keep talking about. I mean the people with an intel channel and a JB will stay as people with an intel channel and a JB and it does not take a genius to figure out that if a roaming gang has been spotted 3 jumps away from a JB location then its not safe to go there.


It increases traffic in areas that are more accessible to players outside your alliance. It's a given that a POS with guns, shields and a jumpbridge to another friendly POS is inherently safer than a stargate. While it's certainly possible to kill people at POSs, it's a bit more complex than just roaming around, killing people in open space.


Yes, it increases the chance of ganking a lonesome traveller by gatecamping. And CCP seems to think that qualifies as fun PVP or PVP at all for that matter. But guess what, it isn't. Whats the fun in shooting one ship with 10 dudes? No challenge, no teambuilding, no tactics, nothing. Its like the current fleet fight, they are boring but they serve a purpose (defending space/assets whatever). This is just more boring stuff with no purpose at all.

Option 1 - use scout.
Option 2 - follow your roaming fleet and use it as a cover.
Option 3 - use cloaked antibubble t3 ship, and don't forget some warpstabs!

Regat Kozovv
Caldari
Alcothology
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:02:00 - [512]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Zamiq

Again, you have not told us why this change will increase the chances of this non-consensual pvp that you keep talking about. I mean the people with an intel channel and a JB will stay as people with an intel channel and a JB and it does not take a genius to figure out that if a roaming gang has been spotted 3 jumps away from a JB location then its not safe to go there.


It increases traffic in areas that are more accessible to players outside your alliance. It's a given that a POS with guns, shields and a jumpbridge to another friendly POS is inherently safer than a stargate. While it's certainly possible to kill people at POSs, it's a bit more complex than just roaming around, killing people in open space.


Well congratulations. You've found another way to inflict stress and disincentive for the already tiny population in 0.0

I think many here don't care what you told the CSM, or who's interests you thought you were serving. We all get that CCP's got an ego to stroke in knowing they've made the most 'hardcore' game possible. We get it, EVE is not WoW.

Unfortunately, nowhere here has it been said how this will make the game fun for a majority of players. You know, the 80-90% of your subscriber base.

As long as CCP's focus is on the type of game they might play, rather than other people want to play, they're gonna continue to see that slow bleed.

Get it together already.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:02:00 - [513]
 

Originally by: Gourdo

Of course they like the idea. It is their alliances/friends that will benefit from the changes the most. These changes as they stand without other balances first will make null only for large alliances. Small alliances will not be able to acquire or hold null sov for the most part.


non-technetium 0.0 is so worthless it took ages for anyone to bother to take delve after the owning power was slaughtered and sent fleeing to empire, an undefended region with -1.0 trusec and a large collection of the second-best moons in the game and good plexes

TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:03:00 - [514]
 

Originally by: Zamiq

Then why not make the Jump Bridge independent of the POS? Remove the guns, put it in orbit of the planet and make it visible on overview. Bam, you have far more risk but far less tedium. Problem?


Sounds like a good solution.


Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:03:00 - [515]
 

What this will basically do is kill off 0.0 industry, specifically mining. We already deal with cloaky campers sitting in systems with any kind of industry index for weeks at a time, so to deal with it we take the jb from one mining system to another. Usually through a loop since systems with refining stations tend to be cyno jammed so fleets of hulks don't get a super dropped on us. Now no point in mining, no one will be able to mine enough ore to make the isk to buy new ships before the old ones explode. Can't jump a rorq anywhere since it has a jump drive, same with a JF. Guess it's wormholes or nothing now. We'll just buy everything from russian botters and import the rest from hisec, wait JF's again nvm.

Akinetopsia
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:03:00 - [516]
 

Originally by: Ladie Scarlet
The best part about this thread is all the ~elite~ pvp alliances crowing about how excited they are for an increase in gate camps. I guess if you're not able to actually have a nullsec empire then gatecamping is the next best thing? Congrats I guess...


we're "crowing" because you are getting greifed by ccp and crying like the people whom YOU used to get tears out of.

Madcapnl
The Rising Stars
The Volition Cult
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:04:00 - [517]
 

Edited by: Madcapnl on 10/05/2011 21:04:30
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We're developing the plan,

Maybe next time make plans first and then start implementing changes?

JarJar Binkz
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:04:00 - [518]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
a jump bridge requires 5m power

a jump bridge has the same global beacon as a TCU

boom, problem solved


Tbh, when I wanted to know where NC jbs are I googled them up.

Olivia Ironsides
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:05:00 - [519]
 

Originally by: Gourdo
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

The CSM have gotten the first peek at a highlevel direction for 0.0, and they seemed pleased. Once they've been up here to talk practical details, we should be able to divulge more.


Of course they like the idea. It is their alliances/friends that will benefit from the changes the most. These changes as they stand without other balances first will make null only for large alliances. Small alliances will not be able to acquire or hold null sov for the most part.

If a alliance wants to bring in logistics then they will have to use non cap haulers since ships like Jump freighters will not be able to use jump gates to get into a system that is cyno-jammed to get to a station. From my time in null it seams any system that has a outpost in it is cyno-jammed. So to jump in ships or even open a titan bridge you will have to put the cyno jammer offline.

If a Alliance spends the resources and time to to take sov in null they should be able to make it somewhat safe for their industries or friends to operate. If you go down this current road you might as well just take the ice, rocks, and anomalies out remove all jump bridges cyno jamming and titan bridging. Oh hell just take out all caps and finish making null into WOW pvp server style arena.

Personally I feel as these changes stand you will be hurting null more than helping it. Getting into and out of null was a pain in the arse as it is, including moving around in null.


How about some carrot with stick, instead of just repeated beatings with the stick.

Tarion Awessi
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:05:00 - [520]
 

CCP Soundwave - When your idea for "forcing PvP" can be avoided with a cloak/scout alt/intel channel, you have to consider whether you're actually forcing PvP, or just boring people by doubling the number of jumps they need to take.

artsjitaalt
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:05:00 - [521]
 

You know, I thought that maybe Iceland was on a different calendar and this was April 1st there or something.

Then I realized the truth. That this is quite possible the worst possible change to null sec ever. Why? Because at least in the past where core systems were defensible across the myriad of newly created BAD space (See whats left of fade/pure blind in terms of sanctums after the last 0.0 nerf) now we're expected to huddle in smaller pockets because of the more difficult nature in traveling across that space.

And that is going to make life in Null better?

Does *ANYONE* there actually think?

Helen
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:06:00 - [522]
 

Originally by: Madcapnl
Edited by: Madcapnl on 10/05/2011 21:04:30
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We're developing the plan,

Maybe next time make plans first and then start implementing changes?


Maybe learn to read as he said this was an isolated change due to happen.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:06:00 - [523]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


****ing this. right here. this.

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:06:00 - [524]
 

CCP: You do not understand what you are "fixing".

There are better ways of accomplishing this, many are in this thread. Make jbs warpable-to, like stargates etc. Make JB pos fangless. Bloody loads of ideas.

You also need to give us the direction of EVERYTHING before implementing these small changes. Right now, you're screwing stuff up and you don't have a clear idea (or it hasn't been communicated) what you're going to ADD.

Wait until you have a firm plan for the whole thing and can communicate it to the players. LISTEN to player feedback. Tweak the plan. Then roll it out stage by stage.

JarJar Binkz
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:07:00 - [525]
 

Originally by: Cellistara
What this will basically do is kill off 0.0 industry, specifically mining. We already deal with cloaky campers sitting in systems with any kind of industry index for weeks at a time, so to deal with it we take the jb from one mining system to another. Usually through a loop since systems with refining stations tend to be cyno jammed so fleets of hulks don't get a super dropped on us. Now no point in mining, no one will be able to mine enough ore to make the isk to buy new ships before the old ones explode. Can't jump a rorq anywhere since it has a jump drive, same with a JF. Guess it's wormholes or nothing now. We'll just buy everything from russian botters and import the rest from hisec, wait JF's again nvm.


NEWSFLASH: capitals can move without using gates or bridges

Basic instructions, have friend put a cyno up, right click on capacitor, click 'self destruct'

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:07:00 - [526]
 

Originally by: ModeratedToSilence

Wouldn't it make more sense for CCP to:
1. Discuss long term with the CSM
2. Get CSM feedback regarding the long term plan
3. Outline the long term plan to the player base
4. Break the long term plan down into patch sized steps
5. Implement the steps.

What is happening in this thread is reactionary rather than proactive and it is happening on other forums and forms of communication as well. No one will agree with every change that needs to happen. Everyone agrees that 0.0 needs to change. By essentially blindsiding the player base with a change that addresses 1 random issue CCP are creating anenvironemnt of dissent.


Yeah but we deal with the hand we got.

When it was said we were encouraged by the revamp top level outline that's true, not the same with this change. Not happy with this change at all. We are able to influence some changes to the final product but if they gonna do a thang they gonna do a thang. The JB changes blow, I hate them, I think they aren't going to achieve the desired result and it was fought. In the end we are forced to agree to disagree and move on as this is an inevitability and there are limits to what we can impact. We were able to get changes to blunt the immediate damage and smooth some rough edges but the end result is the best deal that could be had.

Madcapnl
The Rising Stars
The Volition Cult
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:08:00 - [527]
 

Edited by: Madcapnl on 10/05/2011 21:08:50
Edited by: Madcapnl on 10/05/2011 21:08:09
Originally by: Helen
Originally by: Madcapnl
Edited by: Madcapnl on 10/05/2011 21:04:30
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
We're developing the plan,

Maybe next time make plans first and then start implementing changes?


Maybe learn to read as he said this was an isolated change due to happen.

Yes I read that, I just don't agree with isolated changes that have non-isolated or even mega impact on the game. Make a plan for nullsec first and THEN and only THEN start changing things.

Edit: Or what #530 says, he puts it in writing much better then I can.

progodlegend
101st Space Marine Force
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:08:00 - [528]
 

The uncreative whine yet again. Great change CCP.

This will not affect too much in terms of actual moving around, all it will do is require people to look at the map a little harder when designing a jb network, and take advantage of gates that cover large light year distances (its not hard), rather than just use dotlan jump planner. The only difference is it makes it easier to camp routes, which is a direct boost to roaming gangs, which is something a large amount of the community has been asking for.

Once again, good change CCP, and I live in period basis, which is one of the deepest systems in eve, so I don't want to hear your *****ing, just because you will have to make a few new bookmarks, and actually clear out roaming gangs from your space, instead of ignore them and play tanks or HON.

ModeratedToSilence
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:08:00 - [529]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave


Wouldn't it make more sense for CCP to:
1. Discuss long term with the CSM
2. Get CSM feedback regarding the long term plan
3. Outline the long term plan to the player base
4. Break the long term plan down into patch sized steps
5. Implement the steps.

What is happening in this thread is reactionary rather than proactive and it is happening on other forums and forms of communication as well. No one will agree with every change that needs to happen. Everyone agrees that 0.0 needs to change. By essentially blindsiding the player base with a change that addresses 1 random issue CCP are creating anenvironemnt of dissent.


I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


When an organisation is formulating a major plan, that will potentially have widespread long term effects, it simple common sense to put small isolated changes on hold until the big picture is clear. Making a small isolated change while planning a major long term progression can have drastic results on the long term effects. I believe the term for these effects has been coined as the "butterfly effect". Do you understand this concept?

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:09:00 - [530]
 

Originally by: xttz
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


****ing this. right here. this.


^^^

Illwill Bill
Svea Crusaders
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:09:00 - [531]
 

Edited by: Illwill Bill on 10/05/2011 21:09:54
With the craploads of NC tears this has brought, this change cannot be a bad one.

Also: Linkage

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:09:00 - [532]
 

Originally by: JarJar Binkz
Originally by: Cellistara
What this will basically do is kill off 0.0 industry, specifically mining. We already deal with cloaky campers sitting in systems with any kind of industry index for weeks at a time, so to deal with it we take the jb from one mining system to another. Usually through a loop since systems with refining stations tend to be cyno jammed so fleets of hulks don't get a super dropped on us. Now no point in mining, no one will be able to mine enough ore to make the isk to buy new ships before the old ones explode. Can't jump a rorq anywhere since it has a jump drive, same with a JF. Guess it's wormholes or nothing now. We'll just buy everything from russian botters and import the rest from hisec, wait JF's again nvm.


NEWSFLASH: capitals can move without using gates or bridges

Basic instructions, have friend put a cyno up, right click on capacitor, click 'self destruct'

Currently: Bridges take caps to systems with cyno jammers
With change: If you can jump the ship itself, you can't enter a system with a JB

Laminar Septimar
Gallente
Jelly Kings
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:09:00 - [533]
 

tl;dr
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

[...]while upping the fuelbay to 30.000 (3x)[...]


Anyone from CCP can confirm that the new capacity of Jumpbridge-modules will be 30k m ?

Smoking Blunts
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:09:00 - [534]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: ModeratedToSilence

Wouldn't it make more sense for CCP to:
1. Discuss long term with the CSM
2. Get CSM feedback regarding the long term plan
3. Outline the long term plan to the player base
4. Break the long term plan down into patch sized steps
5. Implement the steps.

What is happening in this thread is reactionary rather than proactive and it is happening on other forums and forms of communication as well. No one will agree with every change that needs to happen. Everyone agrees that 0.0 needs to change. By essentially blindsiding the player base with a change that addresses 1 random issue CCP are creating anenvironemnt of dissent.


Yeah but we deal with the hand we got.

When it was said we were encouraged by the revamp top level outline that's true, not the same with this change. Not happy with this change at all. We are able to influence some changes to the final product but if they gonna do a thang they gonna do a thang. The JB changes blow, I hate them, I think they aren't going to achieve the desired result and it was fought. In the end we are forced to agree to disagree and move on as this is an inevitability and there are limits to what we can impact. We were able to get changes to blunt the immediate damage and smooth some rough edges but the end result is the best deal that could be had.


what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid

Calistro
Gallente
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:10:00 - [535]
 

I have to laugh at the amount of whining that is going on in this thread.

5 years ago, no jumpfreighters, no jump bridges, no titans. Only carriers were used and they were rare.

ASCN, 5000 man alliance did weekly freighter ops of 20+ from Feythabolis up to empire and back. ASCN was a bunch of carebears for the most part and no one complained, it was a part of being there. Complacency has taken a hold of today's people in 0.0 and it's time the dice were thrown into the air again. God protect you against actually having to band up to do something as a group that doesn't involve PVP or PVE. People in the alliances making billions and billions on the production and sales of supercaps will be the ones hurt in this, not John Doe.

Maybe it will even take the NPC sov regions out of being botting heavens and make people move into them for real.

Larissa Sunsorrow
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:10:00 - [536]
 

itt: http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/butthurt2.jpg

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:10:00 - [537]
 

Also the other serious problem is that JB's shouldn't bar rorquals and JFs, there's no gain to blocking them since that doesn't help you defend the cynojammed system and just again increases tedium.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:11:00 - [538]
 

Originally by: Laminar Septimar
tl;dr
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

[...]while upping the fuelbay to 30.000 (3x)[...]


Anyone from CCP can confirm that the new capacity of Jumpbridge-modules will be 30k m ?


Confirmed!

Panem EtCircenses
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:11:00 - [539]
 

Quote:
The tears they taste great!! I bet 90% of the whiners werent around during the time before jump bridges existed. You know what we did back in 0.0 before the time of jump bridges in 2007, we had escorts and organized fleets. It was fun, and was also my first experience in 0.0. 45 jumps from K8 in branch to NGM-0k in a thorax guarding two iteron 5's. Was fun, not stinking jump bridges to geminate to drone regions, all 100% had to be there pilots and piloting. So pretty much, STFU. It isnt that bad, you still have your jump bridges, and can still use freighters with them.



Befor we had toilets we crapped in the wood; ah, the poetry! Who here can remember the sounds of the birds, the cool breeze wafting around your delicates, the .... damn it, I've lost my train of thought Shocked

Inari Ryosaki
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:11:00 - [540]
 

excellent.

a step in the right direction!


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