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Wolodymyr
Posted - 2011.05.09 22:30:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Wolodymyr on 09/05/2011 22:36:09
OK this might sound TOTALLY crazy but you might be able to fix macro mining the way you fixed RMT with PLEX. Just make marco mining part of the game.

First introduce a macro mining module. Since most hulks are shield tanked have it take up a mid slot and use a s***load of CPU. Basically while mining you target whatever can you are using then use the macro miner module on it. The module automatically dumps whatever ore is in your hold into the can. And if a roid gets mined out, the macro miner module starts cycling on any other roids you have targeted.

Second give all mining barges a huge amount of maximum targets. This would make training the multitasking skill worthwhile.

Third if you are worried about runaway inflation on minerals due to everyone mining 23/7 just make the roids give out fewer units per cycle. So if you assume people will mine 5 times as much on average make the mining output 1/5 as much.


You could even think of this from an RP standpoint. Imagine you are a capsuleer who just bought a new mining barge, what's the first thing you'd want to do. I'd program the ship to mine on it's own like a big drone or something while I go get a sandwich. Because no sentient creature would willingly inflict the boredom of asteroid mining on themselves.

Tarikan
Minmatar
Hardcore p0wnography
Posted - 2011.05.10 02:03:00 - [2]
 

um, no.

macro mining and bots ruin the game, period.

this will never happen, and if it does, you'll see a large player base just walk away from the game.

Ari Chu
Posted - 2011.05.10 04:28:00 - [3]
 

As long as I believe that it is possible to get rid of macros - I'll oppose the "well everyone's gonna do it anyways" approach.

And yes, it's very possible. Use more randomly spawning rats that are fairly nasty.

Wolodymyr
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:29:00 - [4]
 

OK I guess in theory CCP could make mining less mind numbingly boring, but come on seriously, which of these two options do you think is more likely to happen?

Doeko
Posted - 2011.05.11 06:38:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Doeko on 11/05/2011 06:50:24
Edited by: Doeko on 11/05/2011 06:42:32
Originally by: Wolodymyr
Third if you are worried about runaway inflation on minerals due to everyone mining 23/7 just make the roids give out fewer units per cycle. So if you assume people will mine 5 times as much on average make the mining output 1/5 as much.


lolwut? More macro miners = cheaper minerals = deflation != inflation.

In any case, I think this is a good idea; the core of the game is PvP (whether it be in pew pew or trading or whatever) and mining is just insanely boring content (so is missions imo and really pretty much everything you have to do to get ahead in this game and get to the fun stuff which could be manufacturing/research/high level industry or PvP). Why do people think it is so important for someone to have to go through the boringness of mining in order to make a few ISK?

If manufacturing required you moved stuff around the factory all day there would probably be botters doing that too and people would be whining about it and would insist that those poor carebears KEEP SPENDING THEIR TIME ON IT GODDAMN IT. But luckily manufacturing requires no real life time investment next to the ISK investment. I don't see why mining should because it's definitely not more fun than the hypothetical moving parts around in a 2d factory screen so an ISK and skill investment for the modules to engage in mining should suffice and require no further investment of time because if you think mining is more fun than say any other past-time then Rolling Eyes

And yes, obviously you will have to invest some real time before you get to the part where you can automate the whole isk-making process but it won't be an endless grind and it will take away the botter's advantage and probably run them straight out of business.

Full support, good idea, CCP should do this yesterday. The only reason CCP will not is because of the intense oversupply this could create on the mineral market and distorting the economic balance heavily.

Originally by: Tarikan
um, no.

macro mining and bots ruin the game, period.

this will never happen, and if it does, you'll see a large player base just walk away from the game.


I've not once heard a convincing argument on how macro miners are actually bad for the game? For PvP'ers with ISK in their wallets it's good because more supply = lower prices = more stuff you can buy with your ISK. And since the amount of ISK you get from missions isn't price-adjusted (afaik) the only people who suffer from botters are actual miners who put in their time because without macro's everything would be (a lot?) more expensive.

Angst IronShard
Minmatar
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2011.05.11 11:14:00 - [6]
 

not supported

Remove the plexes, so it will remove the bots.
I prefer play with 25k players than 25k players + 25k bots



Tu Ko
Predator's Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.12 00:05:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Angst IronShard
not supported
Remove the plexes, so it will remove the bots.
I prefer play with 25k players than 25k players + 25k bots



Confirming bots did not exist before plex...

:Serious:
You need to understand two things. First that PLEX was an idea to make it possible for the hardcore to feed resource to the casual so that the causal would not go outside the game to purchase resource(isk). Second every game I have been in has had some level of RMT activity, even dead games like AoC. Policing efforts only go so far, so I agree with the previous poster CCP need to change game mechanics so that the bot become drasticly vulnerable or unable to adapt to changing enviroment. Allowing botting will absolutely murder the game in every shape.

Doeko
Posted - 2011.05.12 17:07:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tu Ko

Allowing botting will absolutely murder the game in every shape.


While I don't approve of botting (rather I am in favour of making automated mining part of the gameplay) I still haven't heard any real substantial arguments on why they really are bad for the game, apart from the obvious one that it's sad for the people putting their time into mining.

But then again, why would a sensible human being put their time into mining? It's not fun.

StukaBee
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.13 22:09:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: StukaBee on 13/05/2011 22:10:15
Originally by: Doeko
I've not once heard a convincing argument on how macro miners are actually bad for the game? For PvP'ers with ISK in their wallets it's good

Just because something is good for a particular player, doesn't mean its good for the game - if a Dev spawned a trillion ISK into your wallet or a Sabre BPO into your personal hangar (or mine) would you say that was good for the game as a whole too?
Quote:
because more supply = lower prices = more stuff you can buy with your ISK.

That isn't a good thing, because one of the pillars that EVE is based on is meaningful combat where losses have value and consequences attached (unlike other MMOs where the material cost of getting killed is essentially zero and so PvP only matters for bragging right purposes). If I get my Battleship/HAC/titan/whatever blown up and my response is 'lol whatever' because macro-miners have crushed the mineral market to the position where ship loss has become meaningless, where has that aspect of the game gone?

That was one reason for the insurance nerf a little while ago - T1 ships had become more or less free because mineral prices had crashed so far that the hull costs were at the same level as the insurance payouts.
Quote:
And since the amount of ISK you get from missions isn't price-adjusted (afaik) the only people who suffer from botters are actual miners who put in their time because without macro's everything would be (a lot?) more expensive.

As above, any PvP entity engaged in combat suffers from bot miners because the crashed mineral market dilutes the value and meaning of a kill. If I kill some wardec target who has lost battleship after battleship without a care in the world because bot mining has flattened the market and cushioned the blow, why even bother? You're right to say that one reason why people bot mine is that mining is mind-numbingly terrible and no human being in their right mind should want to do it, but the solution to that is to make mining interesting, not sanction those who cheat.

Vanessa Gaterau
Posted - 2011.05.14 11:41:00 - [10]
 

I don't think making mining fully-automatic is a good idea, as this would lead to a total market crash. This, however does't mean I don't think mining should be changed.
IMO a compromise would be to give mining barges and exhumers the ability to only automaically move goods from their cargohold to another window, for example a jetcan or the hannger off an orca. That way they either had to jetcan-mine or have a hauler with them. This wouldn't be a huge challenge for well-organized groups of players while still leaving them somewhat vuernable ("see that AFK-Orca? Let's wardec them^^").
Or force the player to choose between max yield and afk-mining -> Make it a high slot item with heavy cap use only fittable on mining barges/exhumers.

All this won't really fix the macroing though, as it would still be more profitable than legit afk-mining.

Run a script through the server logs one dt per week to look for ships doing the same actions in the same intervalls for hours.

StukaBee
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.14 16:13:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Gaterau
Run a script through the server logs one dt per week to look for ships doing the same actions in the same intervalls for hours.

Modern bots are much more sophisticated than this (CCP is catching some of them and working on the rest anyway).

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.17 09:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Tu Ko
Allowing botting will absolutely murder the game in every shape.

While I don't approve of botting (rather I am in favour of making automated mining part of the gameplay) I still haven't heard any real substantial arguments on why they really are bad for the game, apart from the obvious one that it's sad for the people putting their time into mining.

But then again, why would a sensible human being put their time into mining? It's not fun.

It's not about mining per se.. its about bots that run PI, that run courier missions, that run kill missions, bot's that trade etc pp...

What you get is Singularity.

Nothing you do as a player has any meaning over there. Just dock and get a new ship for nothing. Killed someone? He reships. Killed an alliance? They just get a new bunch of SCs and come again.
Earned your first freighter? So? Let that macro there run for a week and you can make/buy three of them.
Earned your first SC? So? LEt those macros there run for a week and make/get 5 of them.

Agondray
Gallente
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
Posted - 2011.05.19 14:13:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tu Ko
Originally by: Angst IronShard
not supported
Remove the plexes, so it will remove the bots.
I prefer play with 25k players than 25k players + 25k bots



Confirming bots did not exist before plex...

:Serious:
You need to understand two things. First that PLEX was an idea to make it possible for the hardcore to feed resource to the casual so that the causal would not go outside the game to purchase resource(isk). Second every game I have been in has had some level of RMT activity, even dead games like AoC. Policing efforts only go so far, so I agree with the previous poster CCP need to change game mechanics so that the bot become drasticly vulnerable or unable to adapt to changing enviroment. Allowing botting will absolutely murder the game in every shape.






news flash coming from an indy guy that started in 2005...bots did exist back then just like they do today. many empire systems that had ice belts have been taken out of the game because of them trying to force macros to rat field belts only for some one to reprogram the macro to release drones. than the orca came and guess what? macros went from shoving out cans to having a orca sit with them. The only way to hit them is hulkageddon which they try and get me aswell, and that happens twice a year, i just find stop mining or dont mine in a barge or do like one guy said with random spawns but than again i cant afk mine either, ive already got the chance of sansha attack force coming in on me and i like my all night mining with 15min naps in between loads lol

Tu Ko
Predator's Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.20 00:59:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Agondray
Originally by: Tu Ko
Confirming bots did not exist before plex...



news flash coming from an indy guy that started in 2005...


My bad I will add more Rolling Eyes when I post.

Tez Saurus
Posted - 2011.05.22 22:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Wolodymyr
Edited by: Wolodymyr on 09/05/2011 22:36:09
OK this might sound TOTALLY crazy but you might be able to fix macro mining the way you fixed RMT with PLEX.


RMT is far from 'fixed' bro.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.25 12:57:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ari Chu
As long as I believe that it is possible to get rid of macros - I'll oppose the "well everyone's gonna do it anyways" approach.

And yes, it's very possible. Use more randomly spawning rats that are fairly nasty.

No it isn't, because the Eve Online source code keeps being leaked so bots are likely being built to interface directly with the code.

Bogatir
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.05.27 09:20:00 - [17]
 

The only miners in this game now are macro miners anyway. So what is the point. CCP are trying to remove them from the game but it is simply impossible. By far mining is the most unpleasant money making technique in the game, and in the recent years it became economically inefficient. So following this line of thoughts, which is correct, we can conclude that the only miners are macrominers.

I agree with the idea of legal macromining. I might even start using the skills i've learned 5 years ago, now they are totally useless.

Traffic Warden
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2011.05.27 14:01:00 - [18]
 

I support this idea as long as the presence of a macro-mining module on a ship causes Concord to ignore all agression against it.

Gaz Widdow
Caldari
Red Sky Morning
Posted - 2011.05.30 07:58:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Bogatir
The only miners in this game now are macro miners anyway.


My alt army still mines. Macro mining destroys this game, you need to drop the price on everything, so the bots don't make any money out of it. remove PLEXs or increase there price. the bot owners need to see that there not actually making any money for this to exist.

Nariya Kentaya
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
Posted - 2011.05.31 00:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Gaz Widdow
Originally by: Bogatir
The only miners in this game now are macro miners anyway.


My alt army still mines. Macro mining destroys this game, you need to drop the price on everything, so the bots don't make any money out of it. remove PLEXs or increase there price. the bot owners need to see that there not actually making any money for this to exist.


also, as a miner myself, if one day CCP did correct and screw over the macro-miners, mineral prices would temporarily soar as the market empties (until more players atke up mining for the rpofits, then it returns close to normal). which would make capitals and titans MUCH more expensive, meaning blob warfare would become extremely un-economical and inefficient, which could cut down on blob-warfare except with the biggest of alliances (and even with them, they would have to shuffle alot of their stuff to keep enough income to maintain blob warfare.)

so yeah, do not legalize macro-mining, last thing we need is ANOTHER reason to make this super-capsONLINE.

Lyris Nairn
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.03 06:33:00 - [21]
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbc2NaLuv1A

"The market value of pot would go down-down-down if you legalize it."

Dopesick
Minmatar
The Ankou
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.06.03 23:58:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Dopesick on 03/06/2011 23:58:48
I mine on six accounts in six boxes. It is mind-numbingly boring. I physically click and drag etc the whole time. The only thing that keeps me sane is I play games on my xbox 360 (like ncaa football 11) while the mining is going on, monitor the cycles and run the ice/ore to the station when needed. It's the only way I have found to cope with how boring mining is...

edit: as far as legalized macro mining, I do not support it.

Azver Deroven
Amarr
Pitch Black.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2011.06.04 06:25:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Azver Deroven on 04/06/2011 06:26:45
I actually had fun when partaking in mining frenzies Confused

Pop a beer, listen some good music, talk **** with your mates...

Then again Im a truckdriver in real life so bite me, I suppose hauling 'n all that jazz is just in my blood? Cool

Edit: Oh yeah, definetly not supported. Please bring in random roams of NPC's that appear 100-150 clicks away from belt and slowly close in so normal belt ratter gets away, and once they get in they cook everything alive. Unless its an protection detail of combat oriented ships, in which case mining-escorts would have something to pewpew. Everyone wins?

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.04 20:29:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 04/06/2011 20:38:14

"legalizing" it will only gut mining as a profession by reducing the value of minerals to rock bottom. I prefer the much more vigorous stand against them. Let active players compete for mining prices.. not auto miners.

Quote:
My alt army still mines. Macro mining destroys this game, you need to drop the price on everything, so the bots don't make any money out of it. remove PLEXs or increase there price. the bot owners need to see that there not actually making any money for this to exist.


fail post. Sorry but dropping prices in no way discourages botting. If anything it encourages the practise, trying to out pace the reduced prices. In the same vein, artificially increaing prices on plex would cause botting to increase as well.

Eve runs on the free market, micro-managing that market is a mistake; allowing botters to ruin that market is a mistake.. bots should be caught and banned as fast as you can find them.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.06.05 04:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Doeko
I've not once heard a convincing argument on how macro miners are actually bad for the game? For PvP'ers with ISK in their wallets it's good because more supply = lower prices = more stuff you can buy with your ISK.


For people using mining as an income stream, macros hurt their bottom line since each hour of mining becomes worth less and less ISK.

For manufacturers, they don't care. They buy, manufacture, sell at a profit - with sale price being determined by cost of inputs and processing.

For PvPers, more expensive minerals will lead to more expensive T1 ships and modules and thus more valuable killmails.

Nariya Kentaya
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
Posted - 2011.06.05 23:54:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Doeko
I've not once heard a convincing argument on how macro miners are actually bad for the game? For PvP'ers with ISK in their wallets it's good because more supply = lower prices = more stuff you can buy with your ISK.


For people using mining as an income stream, macros hurt their bottom line since each hour of mining becomes worth less and less ISK.

For manufacturers, they don't care. They buy, manufacture, sell at a profit - with sale price being determined by cost of inputs and processing.

For PvPers, more expensive minerals will lead to more expensive T1 ships and modules and thus more valuable killmails.



beyond value of killmails,T2 and super-caps would skyrocket, meaning nt ony are killmails more valuable, bt more people would be required to start traveling in T1 and T2 sub-capital groups, and caps/titans would once more fall into the core, but not bulk, of any armada, like aircraft carriers in WW2. they re important, not as common, and killing one actually hurts the toher team instead of "lolololol buyz some more mnrals from zee zombies and get buildin!"

flank steak
Caldari
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.06.13 19:15:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Azver Deroven

Edit: Oh yeah, definetly not supported. Please bring in random roams of NPC's that appear 100-150 clicks away from belt and slowly close in so normal belt ratter gets away, and once they get in they cook everything alive. Unless its an protection detail of combat oriented ships, in which case mining-escorts would have something to pewpew. Everyone wins?


LAWL that would be great

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.06.15 01:33:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Wolodymyr
OK this might sound TOTALLY crazy but you might be able to fix macro mining the way you fixed RMT with PLEX. Just make marco mining part of the game.


No thanks.

Although an automated mining platform that is anchorable and can only be deployed in nullsec could be a good way to increase local industry there. It would also provide something for roaming gangs to shoot at to disrupt that local industry and promote home defense.

But legalised macro mining - hell no.

Saerinea Kael
Posted - 2011.06.18 06:00:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Doeko
Originally by: Tu Ko

Allowing botting will absolutely murder the game in every shape.


While I don't approve of botting (rather I am in favour of making automated mining part of the gameplay) I still haven't heard any real substantial arguments on why they really are bad for the game, apart from the obvious one that it's sad for the people putting their time into mining.

But then again, why would a sensible human being put their time into mining? It's not fun.


Fun is subjective, not objective.

Just because you don't find mining fun doesn't mean that others don't. I've had corp mates that loved nothing more than unwinding from a stressful day by fleeting up, cranking tunes, and munching rocks while shooting the ****. While you could be right in suggesting that the majority of the "fun" for some may be derived from chilling with bros; you can neither assert that this is the case fore everyone involved, nor the notion that they would even be chilling with each other without the mining aspect. By making macro mining a feature you would be punishing this play-style as macro mining is by definition more efficient than doing it the old-fashioned way.

In short, screw you and the macro mining horse you rode in on.

L'amour Sauvage
Underworld Group
Posted - 2011.06.19 13:21:00 - [30]
 

I think this idea about mining module has merit. I quit mining because I found I'd rather read or quick mish than spend every 2min checking cycle, how much in roid 'til I switch roid.
A mining module that gave -x% yield or +x cycle time would be fine. I'd even train a super long skill that only reduced the negative impacts by 5% per lvl. But the fitting of it would have to still allow use of cargohold expander mods/rigs or the mod is pointless. And it'd have to be able to fit on a T1 barge as well w/ out losing cargo space.
If I'm not cheating, then a module to help me mine hurts noone especially since lasers shut off if I let cargohold fill up anyway.
Someone mentioned ppl use the macro tools to unload from miners to orca...I don't know how to stop that, but there's no reason not to focus on ways to help make the experience for those who play fair more enjoyable.
CCP wants isk sinks, fine, make it a 10 bil bpo. Someone will make them.
Or make it only a 5-run bpc inventable from 1k mining drones and some mod bpc that has super long copy time for a full run and takes mercoxit to manu.

Ppl are still using 7+ accounts w/ macro tools. If they're not and are able to cycle 7+ toons, scan/click roids/unload to orca/warp/unload orca/warp back/cycle and set hulk follow distances again while orca slowly crawls to right spot/and cycle thru them all every few minutes and do it for 4-23hrs, then they deserve the isk and paid visit for wrist surgery. But it's more likely they're goin off to work, sleep or wally world and able to stuff jita w/ 100's of billions of units of trit over multiple orders.
A little deflation of min prices won't hurt. Especially if new population keeps a steady rise, then the rise/fall of prices will be normal as ppl go in/out of mining profession.



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