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Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.07 08:54:00 - [1]
 

Well no actually Bob I don't.

Seriously, wtf is it with the design of missions that they rely so heavily on jamming, and is it my imagination or is it more prevalent lately?

Last night I was doing the last part of In The Midst of Deadspace in my Machariel and spent the thick end of 20 cap boost 800s twiddling my thumbs waiting for the bloody Khanids to stop jamming me long enough to one shot them. Half an hour to one shot about half a dozen ships. To be honest I would prefer the agent just to take 1m ISK off me at the outset and let me go out and kill them without this ludicrous mechanic which kills your dps dead rather than develop ai that makes the npcs more of a challenge. Yes I could set my drones to n00b auto or shoot l02er FoF missiles but that's as contrived as the npc tactic. Two wrongs don't make a right. Oh, and don't even get me started on ECCM....just get jammed 90% of the time rather than 100%? Woohoo!

Today however just took the bloody biscuit. My Caldari alt was Goading The Leader as part of the Epic arc (so no drones....and one missile slot in my destroyer) and got jammed over and over and over and over (get the idea?) by THREE frigates. In the end I just warped out and back in again in an effort to escape the seemingly terminal logic loop. Again. 30 mins to one shot 3 frigates and a cruiser.

Honestly, I feel like going out and shooting the sherriff (although obviously not also the deputy)

Destamon
Azure Freelancers
Posted - 2011.05.07 09:27:00 - [2]
 

Did you fail to notice the other seventeen threads in this very sub-forum discussing the same topic?

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.07 09:30:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Destamon
Did you fail to notice the other seventeen threads in this very sub-forum discussing the same topic?


Yes. My butt-hurtness blinded me to the complaints of others...or maybe my brain was just jamming them!

Crabs Collector
Posted - 2011.05.07 09:33:00 - [4]
 

The more topics about this the better.
CCP is way too slow with fixing stupid updates like this, so keep up the posting :)

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.07 11:42:00 - [5]
 

I'm all for the evolution of a game and I am aware that CCP acknowledge that jamming is not currently working as intended however I think that a mechanic that makes things harder by making you unable to do anything is not the way forward. Sub level 5 missions were always designed as basically a solo exercise. Introducing jamming as the npc's weapon of choice is shifting the goalposts fundementally as you are either redesigning solo missions as pointlessly easy fleet tasks or else expecting ships to fit an inappropriate amount of ECCM which effectively makes the ship unable to tank incoming dps.

Yes, you could set a drone boat to auto tackle but that is basically making the game a bot-fest and you can't put out enough dps through f-o-f weaponry. All jamming does is make missioning an unacceptable time sink while not really endangering life or limb. Hopefully CCP are not seeking to tweak jamming to be a significant weapon in the npc armoury. I would rather they be dangerous rather than so annoying it makes me shut the game down in frustration.

Amalger
Posted - 2011.05.07 13:30:00 - [6]
 

I doubt the current jamming mechanics are as intended. But I don't see why they just reroll it until they can fix it. I am using a Tengu to run missions, which gives me 25% bonues to kinetic damage, Guristas has a kinetic weakness. But despite that fact, it still takes me at least 5 more minutes pr. mission, because 3 frigates can perma-jam me in a few minutes.

And that's in a TENGU!
I would hate to see how it is in a Golem or Raven. It must be god-awful.

Fix it!

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.07 13:36:00 - [7]
 

ECCM works wonders.


CCP Navigator


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:50:00 - [8]
 

Off topic and flame replies removed.

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.07 20:47:00 - [9]
 

ECCM only works to a degree and one could argue its fitting costs outweigh what little use it provides.

Baenus
Posted - 2011.05.07 21:26:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Pookie McPook
ECCM only works to a degree and one could argue its fitting costs outweigh what little use it provides.


You are correct ECCM is not enough in a feasable fit to stop or even mitigate the jamming, CCP has already admitted there are problems with the rat jamming now. The above reply was originaly a troll reply, edited to it's current state by navigator.

Wayson
Minmatar
Sigma Affiliates
Posted - 2011.05.07 22:14:00 - [11]
 

I fit ECCM on my Tengu and jamming seems about the same as before. Maybe even a little less. I'm not saying that jamming isn't suddenly overpowered (there's a reason I'm fitting ECCM now), I'm just saying that we need to adapt for the interim until CCP fixes it or declares that it's "working as intended."

Also lol at Amalger, a whole five extra minutes per mission! How ever do you cope.

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.08 10:23:00 - [12]
 

Thing is that skilling up for and buying a fully rigged T3 is beyond most of those people running missions. The missions were initially designed for:

Lvl 1 - T1 frigate
Lvl 2 - T1 cruiser
Lvl 3 - T1 battlecruiser
Lvl 4 - T1 battleship
Lvl 5 - small fleet ops

These ships were not designed to sport multiple ECCM modules and remain viable as a PVE boat. In addition this issue only really arises when you're up against Caldari/Khanid/Gurista npcs. All other factions remain as they were. If nothing else we are looking at a balance issue across the npc spectrum.

McBane
Gallente
AFK Initiative
Posted - 2011.05.08 11:22:00 - [13]
 

I've read a few of these jamming posts now and have come to the conclusion your all just lazy!

I've doen a load of these missions now and, yes the jamming is very annoying, but rather than waiting 20mins to kill a ship I just load a bunch of FOFs and drones into a Raven and fly straight for the jammers, and job done. yes - it is a little slower and more fiddly, but beats waiting around for ages!

Stop moaning, the tools are there - use them!

As for saying you wont use "n00b auto" drones of "l02er" FOF's, then your just an idiot and go take ages to do what all your noob and loser buddies are doing in a fraction of the time!

Noddy Comet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.08 11:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: McBane
I've read a few of these jamming posts now and have come to the conclusion your all just lazy!


Funny.. I've also read a ton of these threads and it seems that they all share something else in common...

Originally by: McBane
I've doen a load of these missions now and, yes the jamming is very annoying, but rather than waiting 20mins to kill a ship I just load a bunch of FOFs and drones into a Raven and fly straight for the jammers, and job done. yes - it is a little slower and more fiddly, but beats waiting around for ages!


The thing they all have in common is your "simple fix" above where nobody seems to be thinking beyond the tip of their nose, and oddly enough, most are also NOT Caldari either.

Seems that people tend to forget that this is NOT just affecting ONE single mission being run by aged pilots with millions of skill points..


Go roll a new Caldari character, and wade through the starting missions.

Then sit there and tell yourself when you're getting jammed up the rectum for 10-15 minutes straight on certain missions that are by default designed to be done SOLO by NEW pilots "oh yea, I know how to fix this,. I'll just go fit FoF missiles on my raven.."

Oh, wait a sec..




Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.08 12:53:00 - [15]
 

Which missions are causing problems? I've had Worlds Collide Serp/Guristas several times and they've only managed to jam me for a couple of cycles over many visits. I'm flying a Tengu with no ECCM.

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.08 15:21:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Which missions are causing problems?


Originally by: Pookie McPook
this issue only really arises when you're up against Caldari/Khanid/Gurista npcs. All other factions remain as they were. If nothing else we are looking at a balance issue across the npc spectrum.


QFE

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.08 15:33:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Pookie McPook
Originally by: Pookie McPook
this issue only really arises when you're up against Caldari/Khanid/Gurista npcs. All other factions remain as they were. If nothing else we are looking at a balance issue across the npc spectrum.


QFE


Not to make to fine a point of it, but my question was "which missions are causing the problems?" Your response entirely failed to answer that question.

I have run missions with Guristas in them, during which I have experienced perhaps 1 cycle of jamming. This is not consistent with the claims some people make of being "always" jammed by Guristas.

The kind of data that would be interesting is (a) a list of the names of missions in which players have been experiencing greater than usual jamming), and (b) a list of the NPCs that have been responsible for that greater than usual jamming.

Note that since people have started complaining about excessive jamming, it may also be the case that people are simply expecting to see more jamming, and thus any instance of jamming is being reported as "greater than normal" - i.e.: confirmation bias is at work.

McBane
Gallente
AFK Initiative
Posted - 2011.05.08 16:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Noddy Comet
Originally by: McBane
I've read a few of these jamming posts now and have come to the conclusion your all just lazy!


Funny.. I've also read a ton of these threads and it seems that they all share something else in common...

Originally by: McBane
I've doen a load of these missions now and, yes the jamming is very annoying, but rather than waiting 20mins to kill a ship I just load a bunch of FOFs and drones into a Raven and fly straight for the jammers, and job done. yes - it is a little slower and more fiddly, but beats waiting around for ages!


The thing they all have in common is your "simple fix" above where nobody seems to be thinking beyond the tip of their nose, and oddly enough, most are also NOT Caldari either.

Seems that people tend to forget that this is NOT just affecting ONE single mission being run by aged pilots with millions of skill points..


Go roll a new Caldari character, and wade through the starting missions.

Then sit there and tell yourself when you're getting jammed up the rectum for 10-15 minutes straight on certain missions that are by default designed to be done SOLO by NEW pilots "oh yea, I know how to fix this,. I'll just go fit FoF missiles on my raven.."

Oh, wait a sec..






Hmmm, ok so first it's moaning because of not being bothered to use the right setup and now its moaning because you have to train skills for the right setup... you see where I'll be going with this?

So, anyway... just for the record, you obviously had a look at my character and noticed it's many years old. Well, many of those years were not in game so my SP is prob not as high as you'd think, and regardless most of those SP will be irrelevant to running missions. I returned a couple of months back and when I last played a mission, a Raven could fire Torps from 100km and they would also blow up frigs in one hit. That amonsgt other things, meant I had to train up a lot of new and different skills to just run a mission - Cruise missiles for a start, drones totally changes and so on. If I can do that, I'm sure you can too - it doesn't take that long really.

One thing that hasn't changed since I last played years ago tho is the moaning! lol

Amalger
Posted - 2011.05.08 18:19:00 - [19]
 

So, I posted a thread where CCP had answered: This is a known issue and we are working on fixing it.

The post I linked this in, has been removed, because I might have said some other things aswell..

Cba to find the link again, but it's proof that this IS a bug, so stop trolling.

As to which missions: It's in all guristas missions. You might not experience it as badly, due to your sig radius in your Tengu, but believe me, ppl in golems or ravens are permajammed.


stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.08 19:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
I have run missions with Guristas in them, during which I have experienced perhaps 1 cycle of jamming. This is not consistent with the claims some people make of being "always" jammed by Guristas.


NPC ECM has been fixed to a) use a reduced strength of 3 and b) to consistently cycle every 20 seconds. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1493604/author/stoicfaux#3

The problem is that even with a reduced strength of 3, the number of ECM checks has increased dramatically. In Sturmwolke's test, two ECM rats made 207 attempts in a hour. With an ECM cycle of 20 seconds, there are now 180 attempts per ship. Sturmwolke's test should have seen 360 ECM attempts per hour instead of just 207.

One NPC jamming isn't that bad. The problem gets bad when there are multiple NPC ECM rats attacking you at the same time. Compounding the problem is that battleships have long lock times on ECM frigates and cruisers which means you may only get one or two volleys off before you get jammed again.


Missions and ships that jam are listed in eve-survival. You can also get the info from the old database dump with the NPC stats in it.




Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.08 20:25:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Not to make to fine a point of it, but my question was "which missions are causing the problems?" Your response entirely failed to answer that question.



If you read the mission briefing on eve-survival and it mentions "jamming" then you're going to get jammed, probably chain jammed, possibly for a long time. If you're lucky and you are running drones and the jammers are mainly frigates then they can sort out the problem if you're lucky with their auto-targetting, but if its battleships doing the jamming then you may as well warp out and back in again, hoping the rng is kinder to you second time around.

Noddy Comet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.08 23:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: McBane
Hmmm, ok so first it's moaning because of not being bothered to use the right setup and now its moaning because you have to train skills for the right setup... you see where I'll be going with this?


Yeah, you still insist on telling new Caldari characters to train weeks worth of SP just to fly a Raven (because it's EZ mode for you when you fly yours) when they're hitting a jamming wall 2-3 hours into a brand new character, and call it moaning when players point out that there is a known issue still waiting on a fix..

Good luck with that.

And by weeks worth, I'm using Evemon that shows my brand new character needs at LEAST a week of training just to fly one, and 58 days to be at the recommended certificate level to fly it decently.

Mia April
Posted - 2011.05.10 04:02:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Mia April on 10/05/2011 04:02:41
The upside that all the mission runners fail to extrapolate, is bots in Caldari space are becoming scarce. Watch the market... Sit on those stockpiles for just a few more...

Yes jamming sucks. As a carebear, an old carebear, I like the boost that things I also do are getting some love (Read as Market, Invention, Trade, Faction). You can only suicide gank so many bots. Overjam kills bot revenue bigtime. Summer slump may not be very noticable at all this year.

CCP will never fix this. It is actually a ploy, one of many, to get players OUT of Caldari Space!

CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU!


Keilateau Shakor
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.10 06:23:00 - [24]
 

Yes, it sucks. But even the current state can be mitigated by using something this for example:


[Scorpion Navy Issue, SNI]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Heat Dissipation Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
ECCM - Gravimetric II
ECCM - Gravimetric II

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Wrath Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Core Defence Capacitor safeguard I


Vespa II x5
Hornet II x5

Pookie McPook
Posted - 2011.05.10 10:11:00 - [25]
 

All this epeening over faction/t3 setups is all well and good but this issue is affecting all missions from level 1 up. What are the new players, attempting to get into the game and inadvertently starting in Gurista territory, going to do when they can't target anything? Leave the game? I wouldn't be surprised.

Kiandoshia
Posted - 2011.05.10 10:16:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kiandoshia on 10/05/2011 10:16:39
Sounds to me like brains were turned off and testing this was completely ignored...

Bringing NPC ECM in line with how player ECM works... all fine and good.

Have you ever seen what 4 players in Blackbirds do to a single ship? Probably not because most gangs only ever have one or two of them because that is usually enough to turn the tide/discourage most people from attacking you.

Some missions throw 4-6 of these things at you at once, even lower level ones.


 

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