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blankseplocked T2 supply chains vs. 0.0 self-sufficiency
 
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.05.01 07:41:00 - [1]
 

This is something I've seen come up from time to time in discussions relating to the heavy dependence of 0.0 players on the Jita market. It is extremely difficult to set up a complete T2 supply chain in 0.0 (or anywhere else for that matter) because there are lots of different input materials required. Some of these are rare; they can end up being scattered thinly across the territories of multiple alliances and coalitions, or they can sometimes end up concentrated into a smaller area (e.g., as is often claimed, the relative abundance of Technetium in NC space). This is not necessarily a bad thing - far from it. Back in the days when Dysprosium was king, individual moons were worth tens of billions a month, and these were heavily fought over, making the world of EVE a more interesting place.

However, it means that there is a very strong incentive for everyone to come together in a single central market, i.e. Jita, and consequently a very large share of T2 production takes place in empire space, almost totally free from risk. Does anyone know of any instances of people setting up complete T2 supply chains in nullsec, from raw materials to T2 components to finished products?

Lately, I've wondered whether there's an argument for encouraging nullsec T2 production. In particular, what are the top 5 T2 items that grant the biggest advantages, or for which there is no T1 equivalent? If it was easier to produce these with materials from a smaller region of space, would this lead to more industrial activity in nullsec? What if the whole supply chain was restricted to be 0.0-only? Perhaps we'd see more industrialists migrate to 0.0?

My guesses for the top 5 items, in no particular order:

  • Long range ammo

  • Logistics

  • Jump Freighters

  • HICs

  • Interdictors


Ay Liz
Sacred Templars
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.05.01 07:58:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Ay Liz on 01/05/2011 08:08:21
Edited by: Ay Liz on 01/05/2011 08:00:27
There are no most important T2 items. Everything that can be useful in PvP will be needed at some point.

I have thought about setting up T2 production for my own needs. But what is the point if you have to import ingredients from Jita anyways? Might as well just import the finished products.

My point is.. If you already have to go to empire to import stuff.. Why make the effort and only get ingredients for modules instead of the module itself? Takes more time to import + produce than it takes to just import. The savings are not worth the effort imho.

Sha Dar
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.01 08:19:00 - [3]
 

Unless forced to by CCP for production reasons, no one in their right mind would ever take a T2 print of even medium value out of high sec.

With the untold billons spent on these prints (Highest I have seen is over 100b), the risk is just too great...

even moreso in conquerable stations...

However, the basic premise of your thinking is correct in that CCP SHOULD alter the distribution and availability of materials so full 100% independence from highsec can be achieved.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2011.05.01 09:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Ay Liz
My point is.. If you already have to go to empire to import stuff.. Why make the effort and only get ingredients for modules instead of the module itself? Takes more time to import + produce than it takes to just import. The savings are not worth the effort imho.


finished t2 modules are often smaller than the components you'd need to build one.

An example would be an EANM II. It is 5m3.

The tech2 materials to make one are 6m3. Then there's the volume of minerals and the eanm I (25m3 for an eanm I) you need to make it. You could in theory obtain the minerals and make eanm Is in your 0.0 space, but you're still involving more player effort to do so, not to mention using 0.0 industry lines to build t1 stuff. ugh

The Old Chap
Posted - 2011.05.01 09:44:00 - [5]
 

I think the current set-up works well. Take away the need to transport stuff between hi-sec and nullsec and you'd remove an important part of the game. And you'd simply get more of the games resources concentrated within the few even more privileged nullsec alliances.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.01 09:45:00 - [6]
 

Moon minerals are not the problem, the ones that are really rare are small enough in total amount needed so that you can afford to ferry them from nearby areas every now and then.
Datacores are a slight problem, but you should be able to find some via exploration, and again, in case you really need them, the amounts needed could be easily imported from empire.

The BIG problem however is number of station S&I lines (and therefore their value), in particular manufacture slots.
You need a way to cluster many more station S&I lines in a system, much more than you can currently.
This means both a big upgrade in number of lines on player-ownable stations, on top of allowing multiple stations per system.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.01 09:53:00 - [7]
 

Most T2 Cruisers, Interdictors, Interceptors are the bread and butter of T2 industry I think, no matter where in Eve you are ..

It is a good thing that materials are scattered across multiple regions, but there shouldn't be heavy concentrations of one anywhere (looking at you tech!).
The rarer stuff should be in remote inaccessible places so that entities wanting a piece would need to risk overextending themselves to reach it.

Assuming bridges in their current form are taken out of the picture and Jita umbilical is cut:
When the great industry revamp of null begins, CCP should take a long hard look at the map and identify potential nexus points where trade-hubs may develop.
Then it is a 'simple' matter of distributing material access radiating out from said nexus points and add some materials exclusive to low-sec to spice things up.

Beyond that it is a question of augmenting null industry and making base mineral acquisition less of a chore.

In the end, you need a hub of some sort as idle lines are a waste so you need somewhere to dump excess product.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2011.05.01 10:00:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Akita T
The BIG problem however is number of station S&I lines (and therefore their value), in particular manufacture slots.
You need a way to cluster many more station S&I lines in a system, much more than you can currently.
This means both a big upgrade in number of lines on player-ownable stations, on top of allowing multiple stations per system.


It isn't cheap, but if demand was sufficiently strong I think we'd start to see people setting up dedicated R&D starbases for T2 production. There tend to be quite a lot of moons in most systems, I'm sure you've noticed.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2011.05.01 10:19:00 - [9]
 

Although not tech 2 as such, there's also the rigs & salvage, and racial ice, as even more things that reinforce the idea of a single central market.

So much stuff, that means characters with science&industry skills are most usefully employed in highsec, with very little point to them being in 0.0

datacores & decryptors for invention, t2 materials for building, racial ice for varying POS towers, non-local salvage to make more than a handful of rigs.

So many imports, that it involves less player effort to invent and build in highsec, and just ship it out.

Means a heavy dependence on Jita, and as a consequence, whenever the idea of "more space" is put forward, people say "need more empire access routes".

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.05.01 13:55:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 01/05/2011 14:06:21
Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 01/05/2011 13:57:39
It's not that simple.

- How many simple members have access to production slots in 0.0?
- How many production slots are there, compared to the highsec?
- Low-end mineral abundance in highsec compared to nullsec?

Transporting region specific t2 materials is not that hard. It's impossible to set up t2 supply chains without importing from highsec, simply because of the region specific moon materials. Changing that would require uniform abundance of all moon materials across the whole universe, which eliminates real reasons for conflicts (no... Sanctums are still not the reason for conflict and they will never be).

Originally by: Akita T
Moon minerals are not the problem, the ones that are really rare are small enough in total amount needed so that you can afford to ferry them from nearby areas every now and then.
Datacores are a slight problem, but you should be able to find some via exploration, and again, in case you really need them, the amounts needed could be easily imported from empire.

The BIG problem however is number of station S&I lines (and therefore their value), in particular manufacture slots.
You need a way to cluster many more station S&I lines in a system, much more than you can currently.
This means both a big upgrade in number of lines on player-ownable stations, on top of allowing multiple stations per system.

Check this idea out: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1498805&page=3#76 and feel free to join the discussion there if you have anything constructive to add to the 0.0 industry rehauling.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.01 19:13:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 01/05/2011 19:16:33
Originally by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Check this idea out: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1498805&page=3#76 and feel free to join the discussion there if you have anything constructive to add to the 0.0 industry rehauling.

Already did, but more or less in the form I already presented here.
In fact, just making it possible to drop not just multiple outposts per system, but even multiple outposts per planet (as long as they're at least 100km apart edge from edge) would be more than enough, no need to buff the number of industrial lines available per player outpost.
The material adjustment would not really be needed, since you always have hauler drops, and if that's not enough, lowend prices will eventually just go up to compensate. In fact, this will create an imbalance in mineral pricing between 0.0 and highsec (highsec with expensive highends and cheap lowends, while the reverse would be true in 0.0).

Having "personal arrays" gives a much to small entry barrier, which means just about any outpost will do fine, and you WANT a certain degree of concerted effort to be made for a healthy market to emerge, not just about any outpost out there.
An initial investment the magnitude of an extra outpost (or several extra outposts) will make the owning alliance want to promote the area as their own regional hub, and also, make it a more attractive capture objective by competitors.

Obviously, the "system capture" mechanics would need to be altered to not include outposts (or, only include any one outpost as opposed to all of them), because otherwise you could just outpost-spam (however expensive, for some alliances it could actually be practical).

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.05.01 20:14:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 01/05/2011 20:16:44
I don't think that the ability to place multiple stations per system would solve the problem. If I understand correctly, a fully upgraded Amarr Factory Outpost can have max 49 non-booster manufacturing slots. That's good - if you have 5 characters doing the industry in your alliance. A new station made for only 5 industrial characters is hardly worth the effort or ISK, especially for smaller entities that simply can not play against the supercap/titan blob the size of what we're seeing in DRF vs NC war. Besides, my proposal is, among other things, about getting rid of corporate/alliance bureaucracy for something as basic as t1 production. Trying to solve the problem with adding more bureaucracy is not the way to go.

To avoid uniformity between stations, you can add time modifiers or limitations on what can be produced in each station, or limit the number of Personal Industrial Arrays you can install in a station of a certain type, or maybe even add reasonable NPC installation cost modifiers. There are many ways to make some stations more attractive than others. Or, you can even forget about any modifiers at all and let players shape the universe by concentrating their production in certain systems (Jita wasn't set to be the main hub by CCP after all).

The current 0.0 market is much like the place where I currently live in RL (hopefully not for long). I have only two grocery stores in the 5km radius. They only sell the goods (overpriced btw.) that either someone ordered or it sells well, because everyone who want to buy something else or buy in bulk can sit in a car and go to town 10km away. Being a third world country, not everyone can afford a car and even those who can, calculate carefully when they are going for the supplies because of the gas prices. - Swap the number of grocery stores with the number of players in 0.0 that can do manufacturing (due to slot number limitations), goods that you can buy in those stores with what you can buy in 0.0 (only popular items that sell well), car/gas with Jump Freighter/fuel costs and highsec with a town and you got yourself rural 3rd world country's economy in EVE. You can add armed highway bandits to all of that just to have something similar to gate camps/red roaming gangs in EVE.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.01 20:50:00 - [13]
 


Having a fully upgraded outpost is seldom better than having 3 to 5 unupgraded or very lightly upgraded outposts, for a variety of reasons.
Also, 5 industrial characters can theoretically pump out up to 350 or so battleships on a daily basis in empire, more in a fully upgraded Amarr outpost, which should be more than enough for just one system's needs. However, 49 lines with heavy time bonus is still not radically better compared to 60-100 lines with little bonus, and you have the added benefit of additional corp offices and research slots. And having a lightly upgraded Minnie outpost literally next door (for recycling and module production) would make things even better. Add to that a nearby Caldari one (for research/invention and T2 component manufacture) and a Gallente one (that would become the trade hub with plenty of offices), and all in all, 5 outposts (2 amarr, 1 of each other) are MUCH better than a single fully upgraded Amarr one.

Imagine an outpost as an investment. Let's make things nice and round and call it 50 bil ISK for an unupgraded Amarr one, with just 20 ship manufacture slots. You want it to pay off in about 10 months. So you want to a profit of 5 bil per month, or 250 mil per slot. That would translate into slightly under 350k per hour per slot. The added value to a battleship due to slot cost would only under 1 mil ISK. That's completely manageable, IMO. And you're not making ISK _just_ from those slots.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.05.02 00:36:00 - [14]
 

Yes, it's great for alliances like my alliance which holds whole region of space and have Technetium to spam stations.Wink It's not so good for populating 0.0 space with homeless alliances or those who can barely afford one station, if any. Having diversity in player composition is good too.

The question is not how much stuff a couple of players can produce in a single station, because players with roles are going to have access to POS-es anyway. That's almost unlimited number of slots. The problem right now is the monopoly that those players hold and discourage others to get on the market, unless you have a 5bil jump freighter and skills to use it to just import the stuff from empire. I can imagine that you would probably have trouble understanding (since you are active on the MD forum with Tech and all), but many players that live in 0.0 don't have that much ISK in their wallets to invest in a JF or that much skills to start training for a JF instead of what they need in combat. After all, the general idea is to create a good environment for localised production, not continue with importing stuff from empire.Wink Besides, if transporting stuff from empire get nerfed (there was some crazy idea in one of the CSM meting minutes a while ago), you won't have any public slots in 0.0 any more.

Athar Mu
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.05.02 01:43:00 - [15]
 

Until you put research agents in nullsec stations you wont get a totally independent market in nullsec. A lot (if not most) of T2 modules come from invention and not from T2 BPO's (I can't prove this but from my experience as an inventor its fairly obvious). I don't know about all the T2 ships but I reckon a fair amount come from invention, especially popular ones. So you would have to have research agents of all types in nullsec stations to get the datacores. Plus with not all moon minerals being in every region then to be independent you would need to take moons all over the place and transport them to a build system, which even if you could take the systems needed (HAHAHAHA) it would be : effort : to transport.

As it has been said, not many people would risk moving their very expensive T2 BPO's out to nullsec. It's safer (and easier) to build in highsec and transport the finished item to nullsec if you produce from a T2 BPO. You might not get killed by a red but you might get ganked by a blue if you have a good T2 BPO...they are expensive and a lot of people will risk being kicked from an alliance on the off chance of getting something like that. Hell I know someone who was threatened from within an alliance as they had a Estamels Invul on a ship out there (it wasn't a Titan).

One thing that has been said to move more industry out to nullsec would be to make logistics harder...however that isn't a solution as you need stuff from highsec to build in nullsec (moon minerals, datacores, etc) and making logistics harder wouldn't encourage it I believe, it would just **** people off more. So without changing where some raw mats come from then making logistics harder isn't a solution at all.

If you stopped mineral compression, ie you changed the stats on some items 425mm railguns and citadel torps if I remember correctly, to actually be the size of their minerals or changed the mineral requirements of the mods and ammo used in mineral compression, then you might force people to mine everything in nullsec, trit/pyer. As it would be a bigger effort to move the minerals out to nullsec than it would be to mine them out there. That 'might' encourage more 'industrialists' to nullsec, or it just might mean more freighters jumped using Titans.

Really the only way to move a lot of industry out to nullsec is to actually move a large portion of the player base out there. The more populated systems are the more likely you will get local trade hubs. Which in most alliances there already is, however a lot of the stuff on sale there isn't built in the region its jumped up using jump freighters from Jita. But the more populated a region the more people need and not everyone has access to a jump freighter/Rorq and you might find more and more being built out there using stations/POS's. (Bring in the ability to drop multiple stations in a single system...then you have what Akita said in one system making things easier)

Also, why as an industrialist would I move from a pretty much totally secure system in highsec to do my invention/production in to a system that at any point be invaded and taken or simply camped?! I might make more profit more out there...but its more effort and a lot less secure. I will take slightly less profit and security every time.

Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.05.02 02:22:00 - [16]
 

There is no shortage of manufacturing slots in the NC, I can assure you of that. A quick look at the S&I tab in the neocom will show the vast majority of manufacturing slota are rarely if ever used.

Make it harder or less desirable to import everything, or make it easier to mfg in nul. Then perhaps you will see an increase in local production.

Private Gomer Pyle
Posted - 2011.05.02 02:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Athar Mu

Really the only way to move a lot of industry out to nullsec is to actually move a large portion of the player base out there. The more populated systems are the more likely you will get local trade hubs. Which in most alliances there already is, however a lot of the stuff on sale there isn't built in the region its jumped up using jump freighters from Jita. But the more populated a region the more people need and not everyone has access to a jump freighter/Rorq and you might find more and more being built out there using stations/POS's. (Bring in the ability to drop multiple stations in a single system...then you have what Akita said in one system making things easier)

Also, why as an industrialist would I move from a pretty much totally secure system in highsec to do my invention/production in to a system that at any point be invaded and taken or simply camped?! I might make more profit more out there...but its more effort and a lot less secure. I will take slightly less profit and security every time.


Not really security so much as continuity. From what I understand of nullsec, there seem to be a few good'ol boys in charge of the alliance powers that be and then a huge swarm of grunts who are left to fend for themselves in most cases. The token ship reembursement programs keep the plebs happy and the majority of the actual profit from 0.0 is funneled into the deep pockets of supercap owners, alliance leaders, and the like. Anyone who realizes this understands that at some point they'll fall out of favor with the big man in charge and potentially loose everything. With production entirely in nullsec they could loose their entire livelyhood. With operations in empire or split up somewhat, they at least have a fallback when the political wind shifts.

Given the entrenchment i've ready about on other eve fansites and the absolutely staggering number of these super-ships in play. I really have no idea why anyone would bother going out to sov. space unless they were already well established and connected.


 

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