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Sarina Rhoda
Posted - 2011.04.28 09:12:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 28/04/2011 09:12:32
Looking across the market it seems that p3 prices are universally dropping. Anyone know why the prices are all going down atm? Anything to do with summer dip, people dumping stock or just to many people taking up pi after they re-vamped it?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.28 11:55:00 - [2]
 

The latter almost certainly, but a little of the previous ones too.

Llyandrian
Amarr
Livestock Science Exchange
Posted - 2011.04.28 11:58:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
to many people taking up pi after they re-vamped it?


This and believing they are free.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.28 12:01:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 28/04/2011 12:02:29
It's not just PI; minerals, isotopes and finished goods are slumping.

It makes me wonder what happened to the predicted runaway inflation.


Da To
Posted - 2011.04.28 14:56:00 - [5]
 

The sanctum nerf is decreasing the amount of new isk entering the economy, fewer isk chasing the same number of goods means lower prices.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.28 16:30:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Da To
The sanctum nerf is decreasing the amount of new isk entering the economy, fewer isk chasing the same number of goods means lower prices.


Sounds like its a buyers market then. The market always seems to stabilize, the question is what to buy now that will be worth more later?

It *would* suck right about now if PI was your main income, but I went through that with hisec minerals once already.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.04.28 16:42:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Da To
The sanctum nerf is decreasing the amount of new isk entering the economy, fewer isk chasing the same number of goods means lower prices.


Sounds like its a buyers market then. The market always seems to stabilize, the question is what to buy now that will be worth more later?

It *would* suck right about now if PI was your main income, but I went through that with hisec minerals once already.


Meh, I've got some high sec alts doing P1 Materials straight to market, it's no where near the level of "suck" yet.

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2011.04.28 20:20:00 - [8]
 

PI is not "free" but in terms of cost vs finished goods sales price, the margin in INCREDIBLE! Now that you can pretty much afk a battleship a month on even the crappiest planets I can imagine more people will just do this as passive income.

Which is why I always laugh at people saying P3 items will rocket and maintain a high price. Yes, I kind of hope so, I enjoy making hundreds of millions of ISK a month for next to NO effort, I hope this never stops!! Rolling Eyes

Melchiades Seti
Posted - 2011.04.28 20:58:00 - [9]
 

I noticed the lower prices on some of the PI goods. I did what any dilligent, long term manufaturer would do - I stocked up. :)

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2011.04.28 23:52:00 - [10]
 

School's out

Candy Oshea
Amarr
Techfree Investment Group
Posted - 2011.04.29 02:06:00 - [11]
 

Noticed it also.

A large Volume of robotics has been put up in my region for 5% below cost.

Also people would be silly to rely on only one source of income in a game this complex. Diversify a little, isk is everywhere :)

Pretty sure p.i. was only designed as a supplementary income source, with its many layers of building p1 to p4 etc, its very easy to make an accounting error & sell for less than build cost.

I suspect the PI markets will stabilize once ppl realize how to calculate profits properly. Cool

Hockston Axe
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.29 05:15:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Candy Oshea
once ppl realize how to calculate profits properly. Cool


In Eve, that'll be the day after never.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.04.29 05:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hockston Axe
Originally by: Candy Oshea
once ppl realize how to calculate profits properly. Cool


In Eve, that'll be the day after never.



I agree. Money losing idiots existed well before EvE, they are called "my liquidity" by the others.

They will still exist even past EvE got properly bug fixed and missing features finished. That is till hell freezes.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.29 09:34:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I agree. Money losing idiots existed well before EvE, they are called "my liquidity" by the others.



However the problem with that view is the sheer numbers that seem to be involved in PI. In other markets recycling keeps them in check, in PI that is not an option. Longer term it will likely provide a text book example of Greshams law, the bad money driving out the good.


Mr Cocojambo
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:14:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I agree. Money losing idiots existed well before EvE, they are called "my liquidity" by the others.




Oh my.. "money losing idiots"?
You do realize this is a game dont you? That people play this for fun and what different people regard as "fun" is not necesarily what you think is fun?

Maybe others think it is fun seing all these rediculous statements from you selfproclaimed market-wizzards.. Laughing

PS! And by rediculous statements i mean the ones where you call others for idiots because they dont share your opinion of fun.

----------------
And yeah... English is not my native language!

Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:19:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Cyniac on 29/04/2011 10:22:12
Edited by: Cyniac on 29/04/2011 10:20:44
Originally by: Candy Oshea
A large Volume of robotics has been put up in my region for 5% below cost.

Originally by: Candy Oshea
I suspect the PI markets will stabilize once ppl realize how to calculate profits properly. Cool


You are assuming that the "cost" of making a P3 module is the cost of the P2 components.

It's a little more complex - in fact what people doing PI need to look at is to maximize their profits (cost is a factor in this but not the only one)

Looks something like this:

PI Profit = (PI revenue) - (PI production cost) - (PI Logistics cost)

Look at these carefully.

PI revenue - easy this is what you get on the market for selling your PI materials (minus transaction fees if you want to get it down pat)

PI production costs - what it costs to make your PI materials. This includes the cost of exporting and importing materials as well as the cost to setup your facilities and move them around if that's what you decide to do. Also includes the cost of lower PI items if you get those off the market.

PI logistics costs - cost of moving the materials to the market.

This leaves you with three kinds of PI producers:

1) High sec factory planets

2) High sec extraction setup & production

3) Null/WH extraction & production

(lowsec PI falls somewhere between 2 and 3 depending on the specific situation)

All of the three will have to consider the costs of setting up the PI facilities but beyond that their motivations and thoughts differ.

High sec factory planet managers fundamentally only have to consider the cost of PI materials, logistics is usually negligeable.

High sec extraction and production setups consider their production costs, logistics costs are usually low or negligeable.

Null/WH extraction and production - need to consider production costs and logistics costs which can be significant.

First conclusion - PI Production costs is more complex than simply the cost of PI components.

It also seems to be assumed - that people are selling below "production" costs because they are "idiots"

Need to go back to the logistics costs - the way PI works logistics become cheaper the more you process your materials - up to P3 materials anyhow.

When you are working in null or WH space and logistics is an important consideration you come the conclusion that by processing up to P3 you reduce the costs of logistics. This may also reduce revenues but overall increase profits.

The "problem" comes when the first kind of PI producers (high sec factory planets) see prices of P3 products drop below the cost of the P2 and/or P1 components needed to make them. Certainly there are and always will be lemmings which do this - but it is also true that it is the outcome of a rational decision for null/WH production.

Oh and... given the current extraction / replenishment rates my guess is null/WH production is a big chunk of what you see on the market.

Final conclusion - when logistics costs are high, it is rational to sell high tier PI components (P2 & P3) below the cost of low tier PI components to make a higher profit, thanks to reduced logistics costs.


(NB on a sidenote - VV I'm disappointed you just jumped on this bandwagon without thinking things through)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.04.29 11:05:00 - [17]
 

Quote:

However the problem with that view is the sheer numbers that seem to be involved in PI. In other markets recycling keeps them in check, in PI that is not an option. Longer term it will likely provide a text book example of Greshams law, the bad money driving out the good.



There's no problem, they form a market, market comes with a price and price is never wrong.
If they underprice their effort that means they are donating excellent and cheap opportunities to others who catch them.


Quote:

Oh my.. "money losing idiots"?
You do realize this is a game dont you? That people play this for fun and what different people regard as "fun" is not necesarily what you think is fun?

Maybe others think it is fun seing all these rediculous statements from you selfproclaimed market-wizzards..

PS! And by rediculous statements i mean the ones where you call others for idiots because they dont share your opinion of fun.



Buy low sell high is not market wizardry, it's what you see when you get out of the basement and go buy some vegetables and the guy tries to squeeze out of you as much juice as he can.

Also, I realize this is a great game with many niches. Want to PvP, win some and lose some? GOOD! If you kill many then you are quite good!
Want to create and smuggle drugs? GREAT, it has its own challenges.

Want to make money? Want to post in THE forum where money and profits are the topic? Then you kill many (like PvP) and prove you are quite good.

MD is the money forum, "fun" in MD is also achieving financial results and like all PvP activities you get bragging rights.


Quote:

Final conclusion - when logistics costs are high, it is rational to sell high tier PI components (P2 & P3) below the cost of low tier PI components to make a higher profit, thanks to reduced logistics costs.

(NB on a sidenote - VV I'm disappointed you just jumped on this bandwagon without thinking things through)



Do you go in a WH and upkeep an infrastructure to do PI?
Is PI the most profitable activity you can do in a WH?
Is the logistics cost for P1 an O(P3)? Any relevant production still generates lots of volume so you still have high logistics costs.

Is using a WH as export source a good choice? Or should it self sustain your corp POSes (read: no outside logistics) and the corpies should kill Sleepers?

"Rational" is just a nice trendy label we pretend to use to impose our beliefs one onto the other (we live in the Great Rational World after all, don't us?).

Wouldn't it be more rational to live in NPC 0.0 and JF PI to hi sec if PI was your money maker?

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.04.29 11:06:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Llyandrian
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
to many people taking up pi after they re-vamped it?


This and believing they are free.


I'm doing a very small PI business in high sec, and it's nearly passive income for me. It's about as free as it gets in EVE.

Cergorach
Amarr
The Helix Foundation
Posted - 2011.04.29 13:01:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dirk Decibel
Originally by: Llyandrian
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
to many people taking up pi after they re-vamped it?


This and believing they are free.


I'm doing a very small PI business in high sec, and it's nearly passive income for me. It's about as free as it gets in EVE.

How about those Skill points, the investment in skill books and PI infrastructure?

Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.04.29 13:36:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Do you go in a WH and upkeep an infrastructure to do PI?


I am not sure what you mean exactly by this - When I live in the WH I don't "go there" and yes infrastructure costs are taking into account.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Is PI the most profitable activity you can do in a WH?


Cost of opportunity - there are many things which you do in a WH for profit. If you look at profit per hour then yes, PI is arguably one of the most profitable activities which you can do in a WH (6 minutes of hauling and PI 3x a week for 100-120 million isk profit per week -> roughly 350 million ISK per hour) if that was the only activity that would be daft but that's not how a WH economy runs.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Is the logistics cost for P1 an O(P3)? Any relevant production still generates lots of volume so you still have high logistics costs.


Logistics cost for P1 is exactly 6.75 times the cost of those materials when processed up to P3.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Is using a WH as export source a good choice? Or should it self sustain your corp POSes (read: no outside logistics) and the corpies should kill Sleepers?


Activities are not mutually exclusive VV - you can even see to your PI *while* you are killing sleepers. Also even poor mismanaged WH with a tiny bit of effort produces far more PI materials than are needed for the running of a tower. Of course this is dependent on the level of infrastructure which you seek to implement, but it is quite simple to have a very significant excess of PI materials.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
"Rational" is just a nice trendy label we pretend to use to impose our beliefs one onto the other (we live in the Great Rational World after all, don't us?).


Sorry to be so far out of trends. I'm not trying to impose my views on anyone, and I am using rational in its oldest possible meaning which in this context means there is a reasoned justification (which incidentally I provided). If you don't agree with the reasoning and prefer to act in a different way that's fine my intent was simply to point out there is another way of thinking which makes sense - not that it is "better" or "worse".

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Wouldn't it be more rational to live in NPC 0.0 and JF PI to hi sec if PI was your money maker?


And I cannot use jump freighters from a WH because??? (obviously I move the materials out of the WH, before its jumped. It can even be done with a jump freighter). Besides the risk assessment in NPC 0.0 and in a WH is somewhat different.

In no way does this change the fact that there is a cost associated with it.

I'm still interested in knowing if you find a problem with my reasoning. Not sure where your questions are leading.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.29 14:17:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Cyniac

Final conclusion - when logistics costs are high, it is rational to sell high tier PI components (P2 & P3) below the cost of low tier PI components to make a higher profit, thanks to reduced logistics costs.



Rolling Eyes Deeply flawed rationisation. Logistics is a cost, an expense, not part of the gross profit calculation, but part of the net profit calculation.

In order for that statement to be rational, Logistic costs would need to be negative, i.e. some sort of distribution subsidy that exceeded the real or opportunity cost.

Gross Profit = Sales - Cost of Stock.
Net Profit = Gross Profit - Expenses.

PI Production Cost Spreadsheet.




Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.04.29 14:27:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Wyke Mossari
Originally by: Cyniac

Final conclusion - when logistics costs are high, it is rational to sell high tier PI components (P2 & P3) below the cost of low tier PI components to make a higher profit, thanks to reduced logistics costs.



Rolling Eyes Deeply flawed rationisation. Logistics is a cost, an expense, not part of the gross profit calculation, but part of the net profit calculation.

In order for that statement to be rational, Logistic costs would need to be negative, i.e. some sort of distribution subsidy that exceeded the real or opportunity cost.

Gross Profit = Sales - Cost of Stock.
Net Profit = Gross Profit - Expenses.



Was about to write a reply to Cyniac but your 6 liner does an excellent job.

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.04.29 14:33:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Cergorach

How about those Skill points, the investment in skill books and PI infrastructure?


One time investment, rest is nearly passive income. Don't tell me you calculate skill price into your ship building as well?

Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.04.29 15:14:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Cyniac on 29/04/2011 15:15:46
Originally by: Wyke Mossari

Rolling Eyes Deeply flawed rationisation. Logistics is a cost, an expense, not part of the gross profit calculation, but part of the net profit calculation.

In order for that statement to be rational, Logistic costs would need to be negative, i.e. some sort of distribution subsidy that exceeded the real or opportunity cost.


First off - thanks for the explanation - I am really trying to understand this. But still I fail...

We agree logistics is an expense. Given:

Originally by: Wyke Mossari

Gross Profit = Sales - Cost of Stock.
Net Profit = Gross Profit - Expenses.



I can assume that:

Net Profit = Sales - Cost of Stock - Expenses

Right then - I don't have a background in economics or accounting (and I'm sure it shows) so I apologize if I got my terminology off earlier but still...

If I reduce my expenses (logistics) I'm increasing my net profit.

If am reducing my sales I'm reducing my net profit.

If I take an an action where I reduce my sales, yet I reduce my expenses by a greater amount, overall I increase my net profit -> Which is really what I need to do right?

Where is the flaw in that? I really still don't get it.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.29 17:00:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 29/04/2011 17:08:24
Originally by: Cyniac

If I reduce my expenses (logistics) I'm increasing my net profit.



Yes.

Quote:

If am reducing my sales I'm reducing my net profit.



If your cost of production remain the same you are reducing your gross profit. If your overhead expenses remain the same you are reducing your net profit. However those are two very big 'if's

This is the can of worms at the core PI I take issue with.

Quote:

If I take an an action where I reduce my sales, yet I reduce my expenses by a greater amount, overall I increase my net profit -> Which is really what I need to do right?



Yes.

However what is the opportunity cost, your profit/revenue per hour. An accurate figure needs accurate accounts.

Quote:

Final conclusion - when logistics costs are high, it is rational to sell high tier PI components (P2 & P3) below the cost of low tier PI components to make a higher profit, thanks to reduced logistics costs.



Most of your post was ok, this bold part of your conclusion is the problem. It is not supported by your post, and my own spreadsheet evidence strongly contradicts it, but since I can't really see how you reached that conclusion. I can't really be certain where you are going wrong.

I think perhaps you are doing one of two things. Over valuing the cost of logistics, or under-valuing your lower tier goods.

I think you probably need to google some pages on producing a manufacturing account which explains the proper process.

Also my PI Spreadsheet explained thread. The key point of note is that it reflects the production costs only, not logistics costs. It is a manufacturing account projection.

If/when overhead expenses were included the situation is actually be much worse. Currently nearly all the revenue in PI is from extraction. Yes it provides an income, but from business simulation perspective the PI market is just absurd, it's not fit for purpose.


Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.04.29 22:35:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Cyniac on 30/04/2011 08:37:26
Ok then time for some numbers:

Assuming 5 planets to be used in PI in nullsec -> these are the available resources.

Cost of logistics - Based on Black Frog prices (free plug too!)

Sale value of PI products - the sale value of Wyke's spreadsheet.

Import and export costs.

So far so good.

Making Robotics:

4 planets extracting
1 production planet

Base amount 60,000 units of robotics (which is 360,000 m3 or one load for Black Frog)

Sale value of robotics:
60,000 * 49900 -> 2,994,000,000 ISK

Transportation costs -> 1 nullsec freight at max collateral 110,000,000 ISK

Production costs:
Exporting: 4 types of P1 * 1,600,000 units * 0.76 ISK -> 4,864,000 ISK
Importing: 4 types of P1 * 1,600,000 units * 0.38 ISK -> 2,432,000 ISK
Exporting: 60,000 Robotics * 600 -> 36,000,000

Total production costs -> 43,296,000

For Robotics then:

Net Profit = 2,994,000,000 - 43,296,000 - 110,000,000 = 2,840,704,000

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For P1 materials the calculation is similar:

Sale Value:
1,600,000 Precious Metal * 490 ISK -> 784,000,000 ISK
1,600,000 Reactive Metal * 200 ISK -> 320,000,000 ISK
1,600,000 Toxic Metal * 375 ISK -> 600,000,000 ISK
1,600,000 Chiral Struct. * 541 ISK -> 865,000,000 ISK

Total sale value: 2,569,000,000

Transportation costs -> 7 nullsec freights at min collateral 95,000,000 x 7 665,000,000 ISK

Production costs (just export of P1s from robotics) -> 4,864,000 ISK

Net Profit -> 2,569,000,000 - 4,864,000 - 665,000,000 = 1,899,136 (68% only the profit of robotics)


Ok so selling the P1 materials instead of the Robotics is not such a hot idea.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUT!

We have 5 planets we could use them differently. Ideally we could put them all to work at the most profitable P1 which would could be our reference point for opportunity cost right? At this point that would be chiral structures which would in theory look like this:

Sales
541*5*1,600,000 = 4,328,000,000

Chiral Net profit: 4,328,000,000 - 4,864,000 - 665,000,000 = 3,658,136,000 (30% more than for robotics!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

But... that's not the end of the story.

There are a number of problems in assuming 5 planets producing chiral structures:

  • Wormholes with 5 planets producing chiral structures are virtually non-existent

  • You sacrifice the ability to make robotics for POS fuel - Operationally this is often unacceptable


Note the second statement - It is important because I think it goes to the crux of the matter.

Most corps I've met in WHs are working on PI. However they are doing so primarily to fuel their infrastructure but everyone I've met has a significant excess of the stuff.

There are operational constraints which determine the kind of planets you are using and the kind of setup you are going to be seeing because having the POS fuel is the primary concern - Arrowadditional profit from PI is a secondary consideration.

Therefore we go back to my original maxim -> When operating under the constraint of providing fuel for POS (which are common, though not universal, in wormhole space) it is rational to process materials up to P3 even if this means selling them at a lower price than their P1 components because of the costs of logistics.

Thoughts?

(Disclaimer - I didn't include the sales tax etc in the calculation - would not have really changed the final conclusion much but just wanted to know I'm aware of that issue)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.04.30 08:13:00 - [27]
 

Why 1.6M P1 in the Robotics example (apparently = 4 planets x 400k + 1 production planet) but still 1.6M P1 in the example that frees 1 more planet for production? Wouldn't it yield to 2M P1? Even dedicating a little Robotics portion you may still upkeep your POS while extracting more P1 than 1.6M.


Also, Black Frog posted price seems to be 95M and since you are well beyond their max collateral either you do 2 runs or you pay the listed surcharge.

If you used your own logistics (you have to have them anyway, why leaving them unused?) it seems to cost about < 40M per roundtrip to a decently deep space travel (Jita - Stain) - correct me if I am wrong (I used the ICSC calculator).

Cyniac
Gallente
Twilight Star Rangers
Posted - 2011.04.30 08:29:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Cyniac on 30/04/2011 08:51:35
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Why 1.6M P1 in the Robotics example (apparently = 4 planets x 400k + 1 production planet) but still 1.6M P1 in the example that frees 1 more planet for production? Wouldn't it yield to 2M P1? Even dedicating a little Robotics portion you may still upkeep your POS while extracting more P1 than 1.6M.


I'm sorry if it was unclear - in the Robotics example it's 4 extraction planets producing 1.6 million P1 each (the figures reflect this). You need 1.6 million of each P1 material to make 60,000 Robotics. Thus I compare it to 1.6 million extracted each in the P1 example.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Also, Black Frog posted price seems to be 95M and since you are well beyond their max collateral either you do 2 runs or you pay the listed surcharge.


You are right, somehow I misread that as 90 million + 15 million surcharge instead of 95 million + 15 million surcharge. I'll correct it. In the case of robotics it's of course cheaper to pay the surcharge rather than have two runs. I'll correct the figures now.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
If you used your own logistics (you have to have them anyway, why leaving them unused?) it seems to cost about < 40M per roundtrip to a decently deep space travel (Jita - Stain) - correct me if I am wrong (I used the ICSC calculator).


You are right, costs are lower on a given trip but I use black frog list prices mainly because they also include a risk premium which is perhaps low but real and I believe it needs to be taken into account in the calculations. Note that the risk premium assumes in practice a jump freighter loss every 100 round trips or so. (in the case of robotics)

Neugeniko
Posted - 2011.04.30 09:28:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Neugeniko on 30/04/2011 09:30:31
Edited by: Neugeniko on 30/04/2011 09:29:25
I think the main reason P3 prices are droping is because its currently not profitable to make P4 items when buying and selling in Jita.

typeName Price Total Cost Profit Each
Wetware Mainframe 916057.12 1027596.65 -111539.53
Sterile Conduits 601004.01 661393.95 -60389.94
Broadcast Node 957101.25 1001752.51 -44651.26
Integrity Response Drones 1037050.11 1063552.58 -26502.47
Nano-Factory 481000.00 495848.20 -14848.2
Self-Harmonizing Power Core 996001.05 1010706.79 -14705.74
Organic Mortar Applicators 542101.03 554141.28 -12040.25
Recursive Computing Module 605003.16 616964.60 -11961.44

*Total Cost includes part cost at min sell(for a run of 253 items), import tax, export tax and sales tax at 0.6%

**Sorry for the formatting, anyone know how to format tables for this forum?


Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.04.30 09:36:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Mr Cocojambo
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

I agree. Money losing idiots existed well before EvE, they are called "my liquidity" by the others.




Oh my.. "money losing idiots"?
You do realize this is a game dont you? That people play this for fun and what different people regard as "fun" is not necesarily what you think is fun?

Maybe others think it is fun seing all these rediculous statements from you selfproclaimed market-wizzards.. Laughing

PS! And by rediculous statements i mean the ones where you call others for idiots because they dont share your opinion of fun.

idiot is actually a rather interesting word.


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