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KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.26 08:08:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: KristineKochanski on 26/04/2011 08:30:46
Edited by: KristineKochanski on 26/04/2011 08:11:39
I wanted to bump this thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1442892 but couldn't a lot of good points made.

I agree with the point that LOGIs simple rep too much, have two long a rep range, have too high a sensor strength and the CAP bonuses mean they can perma run. These factors combine to make LOGI's over-powered.

Removing repping range or damage bonuses might be an option alternatively the capacitor bonus so that cap charges were needed as they are a finite resource. While ECM might seem an answer the reality of modern fleets is that you are faced with 50 plus LOGI's so jamming would mean having 100 dedicated ECM ships. The fact that so many LOGI's are used shows how overpowered they are.

For F*CK sake people have had to resort to DDing logistics ships it shouldn't take a Titan to counter a Cruiser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes ALPHA can sometimes overcome them but this often doesn't work because of lag. LOGI's are killing the game this game is about killing ships, remove logistics from the equation and in large fleet fights people will lose their ships, lag would clear and we could get on with killing ships.

Awaits all the flames

Edit: An off the wall thought remove the ability to broadcast for reps, this would mean that LOGIs would either have to have you watch listed (This would protect small gang PvP but nerf large fleet logis) of pick your need up from a channel.

ps. CCP has already accepted Logistics are over-power "tourney rules"

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.26 08:47:00 - [2]
 

Okay, a couple of points here.

1. Why in the world do you need 2 "dedicated" ECM ships for each logi? Falcons carry four jammers each at least, blackbirds and scorpions the same in most instances. If you can't jam out their logistics with at worst an equal number of ECM ships, you're doing it wrong.

2. Lag is certainly an issue with alpha.. but the logis are just as lagged out as you are. Or if not, logistics are the least of your concerns.. you're not going to get anything done anyway.

3. You mentioned nothing about carriers. Go ahead and remove logistics from the game.. and now you'll have 150 carriers on the field providing both logistics and DPS, making this even more (Super)Capitals Online.

In short, while logistics are strong, especially in numbers, I don't believe they are overpowered. There are plenty of counters to them.

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.26 08:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: KristineKochanski on 26/04/2011 08:56:36
Edited by: KristineKochanski on 26/04/2011 08:55:08
The reply to the ECM question is contained in the link I posted, as it is rather long I'll just direct you there.

My point with Lag is that Logis stop ships dying, ships dying = less lag, sure fighters, Super Carriers and Fighter Bombers cause most of the lag but I WANT TO KILL STUFF and logis are killing this part of the game.

Yes Logistics carriers could potentially be a big an issue I'm aware that some Alliances already us them. But we have to start somewhere and allowing one part of the game to dictate the entire game appears to be a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.26 09:00:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 26/04/2011 09:01:22
Yup, I just read that link.. and I agree with the responders. He's doing it wrong, or it was a troll thread from the very beginning. You also left out that even the OP agreed that logistics in a large fleet fight are not the problem as he saw it, while you made it out that was the issue entirely. Essentially what it boiled down to was "wahhh, my HAC gang can't WTFPWN everything it sees if they other side has logis!" If anything, HACs need a major nerf, not logistics.

And "some" alliances are fielding logi carriers? ALL of them do.. at least in nullsec. That is the carrier's primary role, outside of drones, to be giant logistic machines. They all get bonuses to reps.

Originally by: KristineKochanski
My point with Lag is that Logis stop ships dying, ships dying = less lag, sure fighters, Super Carriers and Fighter Bombers cause most of the lag but I WANT TO KILL STUFF and logis are killing this part of the game.


EDIT: Ah, a whine thread. My apologies then, carry on.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.26 09:05:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 26/04/2011 09:06:48
Originally by: KristineKochanski
ps. CCP has already accepted Logistics are over-power "tourney rules"

They have done so such thing. They were limited as it makes for stalemates and generally boring fights .. like watching two defensive football teams Very Happy

1. Have a squad (10) of Arty Tempest pick off guardians one at a time. Lag benefits alpha more than dps .. abuse it while it lasts, when dilation comes along the advantage will be gone. TP's to really bring the pain.
2. Neuts, neuts, more neuts and then some neuts for good measure .. if you have an empty high-slot you are doing it wrong.
3. ECM, 2-3 racials is enough. Announce jams and have people with spare mids fit damps to use on jammed targets .. total jam time 30-40s.
4. Clustered logi panic when a suicide smartbomb brick goes off in their midst .. try it, its hilarious. Can only imagine its even better in lag.

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.26 13:17:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: KristineKochanski on 26/04/2011 13:21:39
Edited by: KristineKochanski on 26/04/2011 13:19:47
I have to disagree strongly with you regarding HACs, they are not overpowered they work exactly as intended the issue in my opinion is Logistics. Whilst you may not think Logistics are an issue in large fleet fights the vast majority of pilots I've spoken to disagree strongly with that view.

Logistics should be there to make 30 (including logis) vs 100 (without) a viable option whereas what is happening is that fights are being determined entirely by logistics.

I stand by my statement about CCP having recognised the issue have therefore restricted their use in the Tourney, you said this is because it makes for boring fights nothing else. Well that is really my point LOGIs are killing the fun the game is getting very boring as a result, LOGIs have become the I WIN button of the moment.

Interesting neither of you commented on the removing the broadcast option so that logistics would have to use watch-lists. This struck me as a simple options which maintains the intension of logistics support but would prevent the massed logistics effect.

Regarding Neuts for small gang this might work but for fleets can't see it simply because of the range limitation on neuts.

Cycotic Maniac
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.04.26 13:19:00 - [7]
 

Stay away from my healers Surprised

ilammy
Red Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.26 13:28:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: ilammy on 26/04/2011 13:29:19
Can anyone tell me why the logistics became used widely in non-lolfits only after the snipe-BS era was gone? Transervsal, lol?

Quote:
I agree with the point that LOGIs simple rep too much, have two long a rep range, have too high a sensor strength and the CAP bonuses mean they can perma run. These factors combine to make LOGI's over-powered.
I agree with the point that BS's simple damage too much, have 100+ km damage range, have too high armor and the artillery mean they can perma run. These factors combine to make BS's over-powered.

Quote:
An off the wall thought remove the ability to broadcast for reps, this would mean that LOGIs would either have to have you watch listed (This would protect small gang PvP but nerf large fleet logis) of pick your need up from a channel.
No it would be just a full trio of logistics per every eight people. Parties Squads!

Hetero Black
Posted - 2011.04.26 15:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: ilammy
Edited by: ilammy on 26/04/2011 13:29:19
Can anyone tell me why the logistics became used widely in non-lolfits only after the snipe-BS era was gone? Transervsal, lol?




Heck, can someone explain to me what happened to the snipe-RR-BS era? I really liked those days. Slow immobile gangs... ahhh. the good old days.

ilammy
Red Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:43:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Hetero Black
Heck, can someone explain to me what happened to the snipe-RR-BS era? I really liked those days. Slow immobile gangs... ahhh. the good old days.
This is what I can explan. Before Apocrypha scanning ships was rather complicated, but now you can easily scan the ships in your own grid. It takes at most ten seconds to warp your fleet at zero onto the enemy fleet 150+ km away from you. Lesser than 150 km is trickier, takes more time and another covops, but can be done too. That's why the range game is rather difficult now if your enemy has good scanners.

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.28 06:47:00 - [11]
 

An interesting question and an excellent answer. However back to Topic.

Game variety is suffering horribly because of logis current fleet types are:

Armour Pulse Zealots with Guardians
Alpha Maels with Scimis to counter repping
Alpha Abaddons with Guardians or Carriers to counter repping and provide massive buffer.
Pulse Abaddons and Guardians - Big Zealot fleet
Drakes and Scimis - Shield Buffer
Tengu and Scimis - Expensive drake better tank.

If Team A brings Zealots, Team B brings Drakes/Tengus.

If Team A changes to Alpha Maels B brings Pulse or Alpha Abaddons.

etc etc etc he who brings the most Logistics wins

Grut
The Protei
Posted - 2011.04.28 09:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: KristineKochanski

Game variety is suffering horribly because of logis current fleet types are:

Armour Pulse Zealots with Guardians
Alpha Maels with Scimis to counter repping
Alpha Abaddons with Guardians or Carriers to counter repping and provide massive buffer.
Pulse Abaddons and Guardians - Big Zealot fleet
Drakes and Scimis - Shield Buffer
Tengu and Scimis - Expensive drake better tank.

If Team A brings Zealots, Team B brings Drakes/Tengus.

If Team A changes to Alpha Maels B brings Pulse or Alpha Abaddons.

etc etc etc he who brings the most Logistics wins


Yeah down with this game variety junk! I want a return to the good old days when everyone flew glass cannon sniper apocs.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.04.28 09:41:00 - [13]
 

Logi's are not overpowered. If you believe them to be the more logical solution would be to have remote effects stack the same as they do on your ship mounted mods with decreasing efficiency for each one placed.

The counter to a Logistics ship would be a Gallente Remote Sensor Dampening Battleship (in the mold of the Scorpion but for Remote Sensor Dampening). (We need a Minmatar Target Painting Battleship and an Amarr Tracking Disrupting Battleship too).

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.28 13:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: KristineKochanski on 28/04/2011 13:08:02
Originally by: El'Niaga
Logi's are not overpowered. If you believe them to be the more logical solution would be to have remote effects stack the same as they do on your ship mounted mods with decreasing efficiency for each one placed.

The counter to a Logistics ship would be a Gallente Remote Sensor Dampening Battleship (in the mold of the Scorpion but for Remote Sensor Dampening). (We need a Minmatar Target Painting Battleship and an Amarr Tracking Disrupting Battleship too).


I think you have a good point about the stacking penalties but I have no idea how hard that would be for CCP to implement or the effect that it would have on lag.

Got to disagree with you about remote logistics though it is way over powered something that CCP have admitted by restricting it in the tourney.

The idea about damping is fine but damping each Logi individually then having to re-aquire them after they warp off and back in just isn't practical.

An alternative might be an area effect weapon that would disrupt remote logistics and cap transfers (but not drones) similar to a Interdictor of a HIC.

Fish Hunter
Posted - 2011.04.28 17:25:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: KristineKochanski
Edited by: KristineKochanski on 28/04/2011 13:08:02
An alternative might be an area effect weapon that would disrupt remote logistics and cap transfers (but not drones) similar to a Interdictor of a HIC.


Such as a lockbreaker bomb or ECM Burst?

The only problem with logistics is that they do not incur an aggression timer and can instantly dock or jump when aggressed.

Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
Posted - 2011.04.28 17:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Fish Hunter
Originally by: KristineKochanski
Edited by: KristineKochanski on 28/04/2011 13:08:02
Such as a lockbreaker bomb or ECM Burst?

The only problem with logistics is that they do not incur an aggression timer and can instantly dock or jump when aggressed.


This.

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.29 08:52:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Fish Hunter


Such as a lockbreaker bomb or ECM Burst?

The only problem with logistics is that they do not incur an aggression timer and can instantly dock or jump when aggressed.


Not really as both of these have very short duration effect and are more useful in breaking tackle than a logistics chain. No I was thinking of a longer-term effect similar to a warp disruption field that would prevent remote effects, logistics, cap transfer, remote ECCM working within it.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:22:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: KristineKochanski
Edited by: KristineKochanski on 28/04/2011 13:08:02
Originally by: El'Niaga
Logi's are not overpowered. If you believe them to be the more logical solution would be to have remote effects stack the same as they do on your ship mounted mods with decreasing efficiency for each one placed.

The counter to a Logistics ship would be a Gallente Remote Sensor Dampening Battleship (in the mold of the Scorpion but for Remote Sensor Dampening). (We need a Minmatar Target Painting Battleship and an Amarr Tracking Disrupting Battleship too).


I think you have a good point about the stacking penalties but I have no idea how hard that would be for CCP to implement or the effect that it would have on lag.

Got to disagree with you about remote logistics though it is way over powered something that CCP have admitted by restricting it in the tourney.

The idea about damping is fine but damping each Logi individually then having to re-aquire them after they warp off and back in just isn't practical.

An alternative might be an area effect weapon that would disrupt remote logistics and cap transfers (but not drones) similar to a Interdictor of a HIC.


Its not overpowered just underused. There are counter mods but to use them would mean less cap stable logistics. There are of course tradeoffs in mods.

You see folks complain about blasters and such all the time, principally a gallente weapon the reason is that they made them have a good pairing of remote sensor dampening with blasters, but then failed to deliver a ship sufficient to take advantage of that. While the Cel can to an extent they really need a battleship platform with the bonuses to remote sensor dampening to make it effective in larger fleets.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:28:00 - [19]
 

You edited in a PS to your OP saying CCP admits it because they limit logistics in tournament. Logistics limits in tournaments is so that battles end in a reasonable amount of time in order to keep the interest of the spectators. Has nothing to do with balance.

They don't want a teams that are half logistics and half something else where the battles last hours.....

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:47:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
You edited in a PS to your OP saying CCP admits it because they limit logistics in tournament. Logistics limits in tournaments is so that battles end in a reasonable amount of time in order to keep the interest of the spectators. Has nothing to do with balance.

They don't want a teams that are half logistics and half something else where the battles last hours.....


Yes I know and it's boring as hell outside the Tourney when the same situation occurs, every single fleet is now packed with Logistics because they are the current I win button.

The solutions suggested so far tend only to work in a small gang vs small gang scenario they are not effective against large 100+ fleets with 60 logis which is what you see all the time in null sec.

At the moment I'd go with removing the ability to broadcast so that watch lists would have to be relied on and possibly an area effect weapon link a warp disruption Bubble to prevent remote effects.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:54:00 - [21]
 

Removing broadcast would make them practically useless.

Again the problem is the lack of other EW Battleships in large scale conflicts.

Take a Gallente EW Battleship theoritical that can run 5 or 6 Remote Sensor damps from sniper range, could easily force logistics closer to their fleets and thus in more danger of being destroyed by bombers etc.

Minmatar EW Battleship target paints with say 5-6 target painters from same distance......dead logistics.

Of course much like a Scorpion such battleships would quickly become primary favorites.


KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.04.29 12:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: KristineKochanski on 29/04/2011 12:26:59
Now I think removing the Broadcast option would actually be a good thing as it would mean that Logis would have to use their watch lists to monitor ship damage and although others have said that would just lead to three logis a squad, three logis available to rep one target is much better than 60! But at the same time it wouldn't disadvantage small gangs which I think is quite important.

I can see merit in the idea behind a damping Battleship that could reduces the range over which logistics could provide support but it could potential create another I WIN button of the future.

I am frankly amazed that nobody else here is prepared to be counted and admit that logistics have too many bonuses, I've guessing only logistics pilots are reading past the title. I do fly both armour and Shield logistics myself but still feel they are ruining the game.

Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.04.29 16:29:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Okay, a couple of points here.
3. You mentioned nothing about carriers. Go ahead and remove logistics from the game.. and now you'll have 150 carriers on the field providing both logistics and DPS, making this even more (Super)Capitals Online.



Ahem, see above.

The suggestion though to have comparable EW boats for the other races is a very good one. Keeping it in a BS form like the Scorpion keeps it viable cost-wise as insurance covers most of the loss unlike the Tech 2 Recons.


 

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