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Exodus Lied
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:57:00 - [1]
 

So i participated in an incursion event the other day in Oniruvra just because i had no idea what they were. My first big problem was that i assumed that the rats we killed were going to have bounties. Well, that is obviously just not true. So not a big deal i guess, but then i see that the concord payout was only going to be half of what the usual payment is. Still not a big deal, i like flying in fleets. So our happy group of 37 pilots were sitting poised outside of the jump gate to the Overwhelmed Civilian Facility mission ready to get to the killing. I was probably in the worst fit ship there (A buffer tank drake). It was the ship that i use to run level 4 security missions with. I was thinking that this was going to be a massacre for the incursion fleet, and it was a massacre. Out of the 37 people that went in only myself and 5 other escaped. Every one else lost their ships. Not really what i was expecting at all. It was too tough for me so i decided to leave fleet and go back to missioning.

That is when i got a little ****ed off. That 50% tax also affects the missions! LAME!

So i did a little bit of looking and here is the question:

If the 26 million isk reward is split evenly between the members of the fleet what is the point? Even if the reward was not split, my drake (probably the cheapest ship in the fleet) cost 200 million to build. Also you have the other factors playing in there too. Check it out:

Reward / number of members in the fleet * 50% tax = isk return for running mission

26000000 / 37 * .5 = 351351.35 isk reward per pilot

So all the pilots that lost their battle ships, logistic ships, and battle cruisers would have only seen the reward worthy of a level 2 security mission had we won? I mean even if every one got the whole 26 million... I would love to see a load out for a drake let alone a battle ship and logistic ship for 26 million.

All things said and done, i am sure i am missing something. Could someone please tell me what it is.

Crabs Collector
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:03:00 - [2]
 

Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.

Exodus Lied
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:11:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Crabs Collector
Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.


That is still a horrific risk to reward ratio.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:25:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 19/04/2011 17:26:49
Originally by: Exodus Lied
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.


That is still a horrific risk to reward ratio.


You can run them in around 10 minutes or less(with a good gang) what gives you around 52.5M ISK + 14.4k Concord LP per hour for every single pilot in the fleet(for a total of 525M + 144k LP per hour). Also losing ships is rather rare, lost only one guardian from a random gang so far, and this was mostly because of a bit lag/sub optimal fitted logi/unlucky wrecking hits etc(the remaining 2 logis hold the field with a bit of overloading the reps on the softer targets). The ship lose was replaced by me and 2 other gang mates and the pilot rejoined the gang again in a new one. That is how you play incursion, as a team with a plan, a FC and some logis that keep a close eye on you.


Demonicly Posessed
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:26:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.


That is still a horrific risk to reward ratio.


So show me the level 4 mission after wich, in event of loosing ship and turning it in you get 200 mill to fit new one.
Sure its risk vs reward but if you know what you do its fun

Exodus Lied
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:56:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: The Djego
Edited by: The Djego on 19/04/2011 17:26:49
Originally by: Exodus Lied
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.


That is still a horrific risk to reward ratio.


You can run them in around 10 minutes or less(with a good gang) what gives you around 52.5M ISK + 14.4k Concord LP per hour for every single pilot in the fleet(for a total of 525M + 144k LP per hour). Also losing ships is rather rare, lost only one guardian from a random gang so far, and this was mostly because of a bit lag/sub optimal fitted logi/unlucky wrecking hits etc(the remaining 2 logis hold the field with a bit of overloading the reps on the softer targets). The ship lose was replaced by me and 2 other gang mates and the pilot rejoined the gang again in a new one. That is how you play incursion, as a team with a plan, a FC and some logis that keep a close eye on you.




I will admit wholeheartedly that i suck big time when it comes to fighting. I have been in a PVP corp for 3 years and i only have one kill. On top of that I have just reached level 4 missions. I do not believe that the 32 pilots who lost their ships were worse than me. I attribute my survival to being one of the first to turn yellow. But up until then we had 8 outstanding logistic ships both shield and armor. We had a competent FC (just because i dont have may kills does not mean that i have not been in large fleets). We also had enough DPS to give any nul-sec territory invasion fleet a run for their money. But they still stomped the snot out of us.

I tell you what though, if you replace my ships i will run the incursion missions on my own if you want.

Originally by: Demonicly Posessed
Originally by: Exodus Lied
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.


That is still a horrific risk to reward ratio.


So show me the level 4 mission after wich, in event of loosing ship and turning it in you get 200 mill to fit new one.
Sure its risk vs reward but if you know what you do its fun


I will admit there isn't one. However running level 4s is a lot less risky than running incursions. A lot less.

UPS Hauler
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:57:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied


All things said and done, i am sure i am missing something. Could someone please tell me what it is.


A clue.

n00n3r
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:12:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: n00n3r on 19/04/2011 18:12:41
a quick search for incursions would have yielded you a decent amount of information.

Eve-survival, for instance, has some fairly decent write ups for these sites.

Also a quick look at your journal, specifically the Incursions->Encounters tab would have given you the recommended fleet sizes for the particular site you chose to run.

*for instance, taking 37 pilot fleet into an assault site that has a payout cap for 20 people would explain your low rewards. And honestly, the only reason you got anything for that site was because you took enough losses to put you under that cap.

That particular site when run properly will net 18.6 million ISK per pilot (not counting LP value), which is not bad for 15 mins work.

I am sure that you are a capable FC as you stated previously. However, in this case you failed to do your research on this new content. And your fleet paid the price for it.

I hope this clears some of your confusion up.

n00n


Geirdriful
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:13:00 - [9]
 

Reward is not split, if you have the maximum number of pilots for the site category (vanguard - 10, assault - 20, HQ - 50), each member of the fleet gets the full award (10.5 mil, 18.5 mil, 100 mil?, respectively). If your fleet number goes over the max, your isk payout starts to get nerfed. Once the MOM gets killed, you'll get the LP rewards.

Judging by the amount your claiming...you were doing an assault site? 37 people? holy **** dude! Out of curiosity...how many logi's you guys have out of that 37?

You want to try incursions? Try joining a fleet that knows what they're doing, you won't die as much...might even walk away with a profit.

You want to be SUCCESSFUL at incursions? Join one of the incursion corps.

Running incursions takes more than a bunch of leeroy jenkins' who think they're badasses cause they can do a level 4 mission solo.

Each site has different things, some things you HAVE to get off the field asap, some spawns will be primary, some spawns you dont shoot until after other things as they are triggers and some things can be ignored completely....you gotta know what these things are and there was only one way to find out once upon a time ago...somebody had to try it

That's all I gotta say about it.

Rikki Sals
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:32:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied
Even if the reward was not split, my drake (probably the cheapest ship in the fleet) cost 200 million to build.


What are you fitting your Drake with???

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:43:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 19/04/2011 20:15:31
Originally by: Exodus Lied
I will admit wholeheartedly that i suck big time when it comes to fighting. I have been in a PVP corp for 3 years and i only have one kill. On top of that I have just reached level 4 missions. I do not believe that the 32 pilots who lost their ships were worse than me. I attribute my survival to being one of the first to turn yellow. But up until then we had 8 outstanding logistic ships both shield and armor. We had a competent FC (just because i dont have may kills does not mean that i have not been in large fleets). We also had enough DPS to give any nul-sec territory invasion fleet a run for their money. But they still stomped the snot out of us.

I tell you what though, if you replace my ships i will run the incursion missions on my own if you want.


1. It is not PVP, it is PVE with a bit high damage spikes and requires a bit of tackle overkill to get the job done quick.

2. Don't use mixed gangs, it is pointless and requires fare more coordination/logis.

3. Don't use a L4 ship with purgers/active tank/no EHP, you can get the basic fitting that works for your ship type by any halve way good incursion fleet. Also make sure nobody else in your fleet using this kind of fittings or paper thing stuff like T1 cruisers or frigs.

4. If you lose ships, the FC should ask the logis what is wrong, and the logis should state to gtfo or confirm that it was a bad luck/fit/what ever. If you lose about 90% of your gang this obviously never happened and you can blame both your FC and your logis for simply doing it wrong.

What do you need for incursion?

1. A FC that did some, that does know about the spawns and the triggers of the sites(this can be also simply googled) and calls targets in the proper order.

2. A good logi team that knows how to set up the watch list, plan cap chains ahead, post jams and prelocks soft targets/other logis without any kind of FCing required. All a fleet member has to do is to post need armor/shield, the rest should be on the logi team.

3. A gang that is proper fitted with resists/ehp/tackle/a bit range, able to post cap/armor/shield w/e broadcasts and follows the orders of the FC.

If you have this, you are fine and this is archive able with even pretty random fleets, where you have to check the fittings first and need a bit more sorting out in the start.

Diego Balboa
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:03:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Rikki Sals
Originally by: Exodus Lied
Even if the reward was not split, my drake (probably the cheapest ship in the fleet) cost 200 million to build.


What are you fitting your Drake with???


That's what I was thinking...that's some drake.

Exodus Lied
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:26:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Geirdriful
Reward is not split, if you have the maximum number of pilots for the site category (vanguard - 10, assault - 20, HQ - 50), each member of the fleet gets the full award (10.5 mil, 18.5 mil, 100 mil?, respectively). If your fleet number goes over the max, your isk payout starts to get nerfed. Once the MOM gets killed, you'll get the LP rewards.

Judging by the amount your claiming...you were doing an assault site? 37 people? holy **** dude! Out of curiosity...how many logi's you guys have out of that 37?

You want to try incursions? Try joining a fleet that knows what they're doing, you won't die as much...might even walk away with a profit.

You want to be SUCCESSFUL at incursions? Join one of the incursion corps.

Running incursions takes more than a bunch of leeroy jenkins' who think they're badasses cause they can do a level 4 mission solo.

Each site has different things, some things you HAVE to get off the field asap, some spawns will be primary, some spawns you dont shoot until after other things as they are triggers and some things can be ignored completely....you gotta know what these things are and there was only one way to find out once upon a time ago...somebody had to try it

That's all I gotta say about it.


We had 8 Logistics 5 shield 3 armor. What it was is a merger of 2 fleets into one. At this point in time i do not want to be successful at incursions, as a matter of fact i don't even want to be a part of the incursions at all. What i really want is to not be bothered by them.

When i first signed up to play eve the big thing was the "Eve is a sand box" slogan. And it was. I loved it. I ran just enough missions to get going on the PVP part and i was off. I spent the next couple of years out in Null and Low sec. But a bad string of losses had me running for the missions in high sec. All of a sudden this wonderful sand box that i loved playing in is being molded by NPCs! If the incursions were actual players, that would be awesome! That would be the the sand box thing that i loved eve for. But some NPC garbage that i want nothing to do with is mucking up my playing, slowing my progress. I want to get back out to null so i can continue building my empire. What a waste.

Siini
Posted - 2011.04.20 04:44:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
I have been in a PVP corp for 3 years and i only have one kill.

How.....

Also how do you build drakes at 200m each. Line the cockpit with gold?

Crabs Collector
Posted - 2011.04.20 08:23:00 - [15]
 

@ Exodus Lied

We're giving you the answers but the only thing you're doing is wining about how you got wasted in your noob fleet.
So stop being a baby and try to READ what we write, you might actually learn that there is little risk in incursions if you do them the right way and earn nice isk.

CCP StevieSG

Posted - 2011.04.20 10:15:00 - [16]
 

Trolling removed. Please keep posts constructive.

Insert Your Name
Posted - 2011.04.20 11:24:00 - [17]
 

How much money are people making from Incursions? They appear harder than L5s, and worse than L3s for isk.

Zars Boy
Posted - 2011.04.20 11:43:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Siini
Quote:
I have been in a PVP corp for 3 years and i only have one kill.

How.....

Also how do you build drakes at 200m each. Line the cockpit with gold?

2 caldari navy BCU's are 85 mills each and reduce the cpu sufficiently to be able to fit everything else if your skills are not quite up there. My Lvl 4 Drake is worth over 2 bills being fully faction fit.
You may say it's stupid to spend so much on a mission runner but untill CCP allow me to use ISK at the local pub then I might as well spend it on something ingame hey?

Montgomery Crabapple
Posted - 2011.04.20 11:52:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
You can run them in around 10 minutes or less(with a good gang) what gives you around 52.5M ISK + 14.4k Concord LP per hour for every single pilot in the fleet(for a total of 525M + 144k LP per hour)


Oh please, stop the "per hour" bull****. This is just idiotic. You won't be able to chain vanguards, especially if there are other fleets about. You'll spend a lot of time looking for sites to do, a good fleet with a good FC, possibly mining with drones for a while to get the ore you need (for mining facility), etc.

People who see every activity in terms of isk/hour are really starting to get on my ****.

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple
People who see every activity in terms of isk/hour are really starting to get on my ****.


Whilst people who make claims of values to four significant figures are worthy of a ****ting, the isk/hour has some importance. I was tempted to try Incursions, but if it turns out to be a complete waste of time, why bother. A rough starting point is essential, imo.

Weltmarkt
Posted - 2011.04.20 13:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied
All of a sudden this wonderful sand box that i loved playing in is being molded by NPCs!


I am living in hi and low sec and am yet to be affected by Incursions. Run missions somewhere else, maybe?

Holdout
Posted - 2011.04.20 14:13:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Zars Boy
Originally by: Siini
Quote:
I have been in a PVP corp for 3 years and i only have one kill.

How.....

Also how do you build drakes at 200m each. Line the cockpit with gold?

2 caldari navy BCU's are 85 mills each and reduce the cpu sufficiently to be able to fit everything else if your skills are not quite up there. My Lvl 4 Drake is worth over 2 bills being fully faction fit.
You may say it's stupid to spend so much on a mission runner but untill CCP allow me to use ISK at the local pub then I might as well spend it on something ingame hey?


Why would you spend 2 billion on fitting a Drake to slowly plod through lvl 4 missions?

You could spend less ISK on a pimped out CNR, and do missions 3 times faster.

Geirdriful
Posted - 2011.04.20 15:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Insert Your Name
How much money are people making from Incursions?


I make...enough...but there's more to it than that. Thanks to incursions, I found some good, fun people to play with whom, amazingly enough, share my own outlook on playing eve.

Originally by: Insert Your Name
They appear harder than L5s,


I couldn't tell you, I've never tried a level 5

Originally by: Insert Your Name
and worse than L3s for isk.


haha...no

Insert Your Name
Posted - 2011.04.20 15:33:00 - [24]
 

Ok, "enough" isk. Any advance on that figure?

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:09:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied
we had 8 outstanding logistic ships both shield and armor.


Laughing

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:14:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied
All of a sudden this wonderful sand box that i loved playing in is being molded by NPCs!


Its always been molded by npcs in every way. The fact that these npcs are different doesn't make it any less a sandbox (as its ccp who put the sand in the sandbox and defines its borders regardless). Mission agents break the sandbox ideal far more than incursions (as running them in no way effects the sandbox which has always been stupid).

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Exodus Lied
Originally by: Crabs Collector
Go do vanguards with 10 people (7/8 dps 2/3 logi) wich will get you 10,5m each site. And yes, ofcourse you need a good fit based on logi support and plenty dps/eHP.


That is still a horrific risk to reward ratio.


You don't understand risk/reward. The chances of dieing in an incursion fleet that knows what it is doing is like 1% or less. Fly a non-imbecile ship fitting (i.e. one thats doesn't cost billions) and risk reward is a no brainer.

Crabs Collector
Posted - 2011.04.20 20:50:00 - [28]
 

10,5m isk for 4/5 minutes is a good isk/hour ratio, plus you also get CONCORD lp. Whats alot more important, is that doing incursions in a fleet is quite fun.

Arazel Chainfire
The Awakened Armada
Apex United
Posted - 2011.04.20 23:51:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Arazel Chainfire on 20/04/2011 23:51:55
Originally by: Insert Your Name
How much money are people making from Incursions? They appear harder than L5s, and worse than L3s for isk.


I have made enough to purchase 3 faction battleships, several t3's, numerous logistics ships (I keep giving them away...), and when I lost one of those faction battleships I replaced it out of pocket (it was later reimbursed, because it was lost due to more than half the fleet suddenly DCing... that was a... fun... night). Now, admittedly I run 3 characters for the incursions, 1 in an orca moving stuff around and 2 actually flying in them, and I FC 3/4 of the sites I do, which does give me an advantage over the average 1 pilot incursion runner, though if you fly T3's and logi's, and have an orca of your own you can definately make more than me per character. As for difficulty, they are definately harder than a lvl 5 if you are just counting neuting/dps... but lvl 5's are still designed for 1-3 characters, while a vanguard is designed for 10 people, which more than levels that playing field. But, again like missions, once you know what you're doing they are pretty safe, you just have to account for a bit more uncertainty and people randomly DCing and such, but aside from the Bhaal that I lost to DC's I haven't lost a ship in the past 100 or so sites I've run.

Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple
Quote:
You can run them in around 10 minutes or less(with a good gang) what gives you around 52.5M ISK + 14.4k Concord LP per hour for every single pilot in the fleet(for a total of 525M + 144k LP per hour)


Oh please, stop the "per hour" bull****. This is just idiotic. You won't be able to chain vanguards, especially if there are other fleets about. You'll spend a lot of time looking for sites to do, a good fleet with a good FC, possibly mining with drones for a while to get the ore you need (for mining facility), etc.

People who see every activity in terms of isk/hour are really starting to get on my ****.


What is this bull**** about not being able to chain vanguards? I do it all the time, but because I run them often, I prepare for them. I haven't had to mine in weeks, because I took an orca + covetor into a site a few weeks ago, mined several thousand units of ore, and now carry the ore with me to new incursions. Once I run out (starting to run close), I'll do it again, while waiting between sites. Also, my fleets run OTA's, and generally run them faster than mining colonies nowadays too, without hacking. Think the other day we were breaking 7min/OTA at 90%+ influence, and approaching 5 minutes at 0% influence.

Now yes, I know of very few other fleets that can match mine, and we do have downtimes between getting enough logi's. But for a typical evening where I get on to play for 2-3 hours, we can usually hit 15-25 vanguard sites depending upon how long it takes for us to get our acts together and get enough logi's. Again, I am not a good indicator of the average person, because I'm an FC and I bring 2 characters on the field each time, but if you get into a fleet with a decent FC you can pretty easily run 6 sites per hour even with a lowend fleet. Highend fleets you'll be looking at closer to 10 sites per hour. If you take an 11 man fleet w/ 3 logi's you can afford to cycle through dps and logi in vanguard sites without needing to stop unless you get large numbers of people leaving fleet, so you won't have too much downtime between sites.

-Arazel

Rens Cheque
Posted - 2011.04.21 02:18:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Rens Cheque on 21/04/2011 02:18:12
Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple
Quote:
You can run them in around 10 minutes or less(with a good gang) what gives you around 52.5M ISK + 14.4k Concord LP per hour for every single pilot in the fleet(for a total of 525M + 144k LP per hour)


Oh please, stop the "per hour" bull****. This is just idiotic. You won't be able to chain vanguards, especially if there are other fleets about. You'll spend a lot of time looking for sites to do, a good fleet with a good FC, possibly mining with drones for a while to get the ore you need (for mining facility), etc.

People who see every activity in terms of isk/hour are really starting to get on my ****.
Averaging 1 site/10 minutes is not hard in a good vanguard fleet. Just like the previous poster I bring an Orca around with me and send a barge into the mining site periodically to get 10s of thousands of units of ore at a time. We also run OTAs without issue in under 10 minutes so there is absolutely no reason why you can't just keep running Vanguards. Even if there are multiple other fleets in local, if you're willing to run OTAs you can just keep running sites to your heart's content and they will just keep respawning.


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