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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:58:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Jason Edwards on 19/04/2011 20:29:50
I used to run anoms with my thanatos(fighters 5, carrier 5) and I even had jdc5 finish recently.

Used to do anomalies in: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/IGE-RI Pipe system... terrible sec status. Except with sanctums/havens it made it worth being there.

When there was pvp. I just hit the cyno beacon and refit. Then undock same ship to go for pvp.

Now that system was nerfed and I am now back to highsec. Though i have many characters out in 0.0 still. I really dont plan to use them at all.

MrCaptAwsm
Ghosts of Ragnarok
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:26:00 - [32]
 

In all honesty, I don't care in the slightest. There are lots of other ways to make money in null blowing up rats, and anoms are probably the least enjoyable one. I can still find a sanctum when I need to, and I can jew in other better and more entertaining ways.

So personally, I give no ****s.

Ashaai
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:34:00 - [33]
 

Let me be perfectly clear that I think anomalies are a god-awful boring pve mechanic. The greatest danger to me in an anomaly is that my intel channel is bad/behind and in the 30 seconds it takes me to kill a random spawn of scramming frigates, an entire gang of reds piles into the system, finds me and kills me. In other words, not dangerous at all. They're also not interesting, because the faction spawn and escalation mechanics are completely random and fairly rare. They might not be rare when you can see the big picture (for all I know it's a 1/10 or 1/5 chance), but as a pilot, I have gotten 1 escalation ever from an anomaly and a negligible number of faction spawns.

All anomalies are good for, then, are fueling the war machine. Pilots need isk to buy ships to get their ships blown up in fights. They're not serving in and of themselves a major source of entertainment. People are upset because their means to an end have been removed, which causes them to be less inclined to participate in the risk aspects of EVE. That might be too meta for this thread, but whatever.

For me personally, once the change was announced, I decided to train up my exploration and profession skills (scanning, hacking, archaeology and salvage). I now spend my nights flying around looking for random crap to run instead of pushing butan on my built in scanner and lazying through anomalies. I'll still run one occasionally, but it's no longer my primary source of income.

Overall I feel like exploration content has been a net gain for me. It's certainly much more random and dependent on what drops I get, but when you find a nanite control skillbook or a nice faction mod or deadspace drop, it makes up for a LOT of bad sites.

Which brings me to my suggestion: I recognize that inflation is a major source of concern in the EVE economy and the rampant isk faucets like anomalies are a major reason why it is a concern. Regardless of any of the reasons listed in Greyscale's devblog, I would wager that the anomaly change was made almost exclusively because of inflation concerns and other justifications were created later because inflation is a really boring reason to make a change like this one.

Along those lines, I think it would make sense to buff faction, deadspace and officer spawns and drops (by "buff" I mean their frequency, not their power), along with associated cosmic signatures in which to find these sorts of things. Players love finding mods because they're shiny and exciting (MUCH more exciting for my purposes than a wallet tick) and they're better for the economy for two reasons. First, they have to be purchased with existing isk instead of magically created faucet isk like bounties. Second, unlike isk, they can be destroyed (either in transit or in combat), and destruction (or conflict), as we're often told, is what fuels this game.

So, long story short: anomaly nerf changed my gameplay, though arguably for the better, but a good way to maintain the fight against inflation but keep players happy would be to make fewer bounties and more "special" mod drops. This puts a damper on isk inflation while making players feel like they're getting something in return, instead of where we are now, where entire regions of space are worthless and lame.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:40:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: White Tree
We're looking for feedback in relation to the recent changes to the Anomaly system and how it relates to the spawning of profitable combat sites in sovereign nullsec space. Given that when this idea was initially proposed, the feedback was considerably weighed in the negative, I want to hear your personal experience with this system and if you feel it has impacted on your gameplay. If the change to the nature of the way Anomalies work in 0.0 has altered your income, what steps have you taken to seek alternative cash flow, and are you satisfied with it? We're generally interested in how this has changed the way you play EVE, if at all.

Maintaining serious discourse concerning this discussion i.e. not complaining about whether or not you think nullsec anom runners deserved a nerf or not, etc. is not what we're looking for. In the same regard, we're also not looking for an nonconstructive plethora of moaning about how generally 'bad' this change is. Offering satisfactory counter suggestions for improvements/alterations to this system are encouraged.


The basic idea was sound, but I believe that the lowest-sec 0.0 systems were somewhat over-nerfed - even the worst -0.01 system should be upgradeable to at least 1 haven.

The real issue is that Anoms are almost pure ISK generators. Since they're essentially the sov equivalent of L4 missions, they need an ISK sink analogous to the LP store.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:46:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/04/2011 20:57:13
Originally by: Captain Ichimaru

Three things ;
- Following that thread in empire I am pulling the same weight off of faction ammo.
- The people receiving that thread poorly are people that A) don't have the skills required to do this properly, B) People running missions for bounty ticks.
- 120K LP an hour? Easily done. 250K faction ammo in an hour? My highest rate has been 350K inside of 45 minutes.



No, even using the techniques he used you will not achieve anywhere near that in high sec. You're basically claiming you're completing the equivalent of Cargo Delivery more than once per minute (or 12-15 angel extras per hour). And then you're claiming way outside what I reasonably expect for competitively priced ammo - you know, the ammo prices at which it becomes even possible to make that kind of ISK/hr (well that or you're making 350-500K LP/hr --- and converting it)

Basicaly: him making 250M/hr relied on making 50% more LP than is possible in high sec and converting it at pretty outrageous rates that nobody really buys.

IMO: proof or STFU.

-Liang

Ed: I want to be clear that I have no doubt whatsoever that some people are going to move to high sec for what they perceive to be better (and safer) ISK. But really now, ****ting the numbers up with bull**** is not constructive to the purposes of the thread.

Captain Ichimaru
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:19:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/04/2011 20:57:13
Originally by: Captain Ichimaru

Three things ;
- Following that thread in empire I am pulling the same weight off of faction ammo.
- The people receiving that thread poorly are people that A) don't have the skills required to do this properly, B) People running missions for bounty ticks.
- 120K LP an hour? Easily done. 250K faction ammo in an hour? My highest rate has been 350K inside of 45 minutes.



No, even using the techniques he used you will not achieve anywhere near that in high sec. You're basically claiming you're completing the equivalent of Cargo Delivery more than once per minute (or 12-15 angel extras per hour). And then you're claiming way outside what I reasonably expect for competitively priced ammo - you know, the ammo prices at which it becomes even possible to make that kind of ISK/hr (well that or you're making 350-500K LP/hr --- and converting it)

Basicaly: him making 250M/hr relied on making 50% more LP than is possible in high sec and converting it at pretty outrageous rates that nobody really buys.

IMO: proof or STFU.

-Liang

Ed: I want to be clear that I have no doubt whatsoever that some people are going to move to high sec for what they perceive to be better (and safer) ISK. But really now, ****ting the numbers up with bull**** is not constructive to the purposes of the thread.


You almost had good counter points until you started getting angry, Ask CCP to apologize to you for the current state of things. Don't take your frustrations out on those of us smart enough to take advantage of the situation.

The spreadsheets and various other confirmations of said income automatically discredits your argument, This is a thread where CSM and CCP both wanted factual evidence of economical changes from a personal standpoint of the pilots due to the anomaly nerfs.

People have provided said factual evidence through spreadsheets. Varying testimonies from different alliances.
Now please stop derailing the thread and provide some feedback as per the topic discussion.

Marvin Cariboo
Broski East
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:31:00 - [37]
 

If people weren't pubbies they would understand that highsec players can't make any money. People are just fabricating spreadsheets trying to get pubbies to believe this and counter the anom nerf. CCP apparently wants us to fight and maybe try and break up the powerblocks DEATH TO THE NC so maybe eve will become interesting again if the NCSM doesn't try and stop it to only fuel their own interests.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:40:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Captain Ichimaru

You almost had good counter points until you started getting angry, Ask CCP to apologize to you for the current state of things. Don't take your frustrations out on those of us smart enough to take advantage of the situation.

The spreadsheets and various other confirmations of said income automatically discredits your argument, This is a thread where CSM and CCP both wanted factual evidence of economical changes from a personal standpoint of the pilots due to the anomaly nerfs.

People have provided said factual evidence through spreadsheets. Varying testimonies from different alliances.
Now please stop derailing the thread and provide some feedback as per the topic discussion.


No, you linked to a highly contested spreadsheet about low sec mission blitzing with multiple agents and massive decline rates and claimed you are getting identical results in high sec - where the LP rewards are notably much less. Basically, the ISK/LP on faction ammo isn't high enough to make the kind of ISK you are talking about.

As you said - they're asking for FACTUAL EVIDENCE... so provide please provide some proof of sustained 250M ISK/hr in high sec by converting with faction ammo.

-Liang

Mackenna
Amarr
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:51:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
Just to reiterate.. we know its a bad change and we have similar concerns.. we are really looking for constructive feedback please. if you want to rant and rage use the other thread :)


You're not representing the player base at-large here.

We deserve better than that.

Here's a positive story on the change:

Burn Eden recently setup camp in our space. We know how they gank and we've adjusted our behavior accordingly while they are there.

Not seeing much in the way of ignorant pilots blundering into them, they enticed us to fight by reinforcing an outpost in one of our best ratting systems. They know this too, as they posted a screenshot of themselves running a sanctum in the system to CAOD. ( Linkage )

Before this change, when any system could produce the same level of ratting, everyone would have simply shrugged, moved to an adjacent system, and went on with their lives. Not so here, as this system now has more strategic importance to our alliance than most of the others.

This change has helped them (and all other smaller pvp alliances) be more effective at combating a larger alliance as a small group than they would otherwise be. It also made today's fight feel more important than it otherwise would have.

SkierX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:59:00 - [40]
 

I'm actively involved in TEST's new player programs. We get many new players who join and move to 0.0 with very few skillpoints. We instruct them to train into salvaging and destroyers and go around to anomalies to salvage for money while they train into battlecruisers. Before this change there was already a shortage in available wrecks to be had, but this has made it much worse. Not only are there less people running anoms and more competition for them it also is forcing new players to go farther and into more crowded systems in order to compete with each other to find wrecks.

I don't have raw numbers, but the amount of "I can't find anything to do" from new players has risen noticeably. New players are our lifeblood in TEST and this change makes it harder for us to keep them around until they can become self-sufficient in null.

Rika Jones
Amarr
Warp Storm Industries
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:12:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Constructive Feedback: "Since the anom nerf, I and four of my corpmates have moved our moneymaking alts to hisec, where we run L4 missions. There's no risk there, and we're making X isk/hour (provide figures). While we remained in our space (give territory and trusec) in nullsec, we could only make X isk/hour post-nerf, where previously we made X isk/hour."

That's good feedback: it shows movement of behavior and is based on numbers.

Bad feedback: RARRR CCP RARRR I UNSUBBED RARRRRR YOU ARE AWFUL

This tells us nothing, and is useless. We already know from the 109+ page thread that folks are furious. We want post-nerf anecdotes and data.


read: "Here, little bees and NC brosefs, is the template that your responses should follow, so that I can present our case."

This is not feedback. This is a templated petition masquerading as a call for feedback.

Tetragammatron Prime
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:17:00 - [42]
 

My alliance lost a lot of good ratting space due to this change. We had to kick a lot of carebear members/corps to allow the pvpers who fight for the space to be able to get the isk they need. I think that is the way it should be.

No way you can make 120k lp per hour in high sec unless your running maybe 5+ characters each doing their owns missions (ie botting).

BoobsArela
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:40:00 - [43]
 

I'm not a bittervet (I've only been playing since late last year), so I can't say, "Oh, this is awful, you need to go back to X date and how things were in Y expansion."

What I do know is that before I took a little break shortly after the siege of 6VDT I did most of my money making up in Deklein. I remember running multiple sanctums and some days making upwards up 200mil after a few good hours of this. Money? Yes. Amazing money? Not exactly.
Now I can't even make that "not exactly" good money. I can't take out new players (like I did in Deklein) to tag along and help do what paltry DPS they could in frigates just to get a feel for a fleet. I was forced to sell an alt just so that I could get some kind of cash to buy a couple PLEX and some ships I needed.
I've gone to my alliance forums offering probing services in hopes of generating some kind of income.

As I said, I'm not an old player, I don't even play a ton as it is, but what I do know is that just a few months ago I could log on, go to a system, use my ship's onboard scanner, and typically find a sanctum within 30min. Knock it and a few more out and after two to three hours have made 50+mil. Again, that's nothing incredible and I've heard that lvl.4 mission runners make money far easier, far safer, and in much higher sums.

There's little to no risk in High Sec and, arguably none, if you're not wardecced. Yet the rewards are so much higher. I don't mine moongoo, now will I ever. There's only so many moons with goo to be mined and that's not something I have the skills for. What I do have the skills for is shooting rats, only things is there's not too many rats to shoot now.

EVE is about risk and reward. It's the #1 reason I play it. Heavy risk equals high rewards. Yet what is my reward for precariously wandering null in hopes of finding some rats? Not much. What is my reward for going belt to belt and ratting that way? Again, not much. Forget trying to bring new players out along with me, I wouldn't dare.

On top of this I see members of my corp so disgruntled over the lack of ways to make money they're playing on high-sec mission alts or going into wormholes. Where are my friends? Not with me in low-sec.

I read this plan would cause alliances to fight more. That power blocks would, in time, dissolve, and that null-sec would be more of a war zone (or so what I read gave me the impression to think was the idea behind this change). Yet turn outs for our OPs is lower than ever. Overall alliance and corp moral is the lowest I've ever seen and is filled with much shuffling of feet and chat like, "...what am I going to do today? I could play a missioning alt but I HATE missioning. I'm not in a low sec corp to play in high-sec on an alt..."
Why would people dare go to fights when they have little to no means of replacing the ship they'll very likely lose? I fear this idea has backfired and instead of causing wars or strife over turf people will tightly hold onto what they have and hope no one comes to shoot at them because, well, if that happens they'll have no money to fight back. War costs money.

I have plenty of ideas on what could be done, but I'll leave those for the CSM and brighter minds than mine to get out.

All I know is as one of TEST's grunts the reward does not, an any sense of the idea, match the risk. And that's a problem for a game all about risk and reward.

Bubanni
Cryptonym Sleepers
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:19:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Bubanni on 20/04/2011 00:21:41
Before the nerf I had 2 carrier pilots that I used to do sanctums and havens with. on a good day I could bring in 20-25mil (every 20 mins) on both chars at same time.
Not that I would run anomalies all day, the most I earned in a day (and only did this once) was 600mil during 6-8 hours


After the nerf, there was too much competition, and lack of good sites worth running, so I sold my one character. (and canceled the account)

We are lucky in test because we actually have a few systems with decent number of higher end anomalies, it's still possible for us to do sanctums and havens, but after the nerf I have found myself ratting alot less...

Now I only feel like running maybe 2-3 havens before doing something els, because I hate doing the chemical haven, and there is only 1 sanctum...

As an alliance, we basicly became forced to engage the npc space right next to us, so we can begin to do lvl 4 missions while still remaining in 0.0

MynChu NicAtoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:31:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: MynChu NicAtoch on 20/04/2011 18:24:30
Edited by: MynChu NicAtoch on 20/04/2011 18:23:45
The increased population pressure due to alliance members moving from nerfed systems, and the increased risk of afk cloaking in the few remaining decent systems have made anomalies less than optimal for me. Log on for some quick solo isk making - more than 20 in local? My anomaly running ships are docked and two cyno alts have been moved to empire npc corps where they are skilling for level fours and the ubiquitous drake/tengu.


Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:32:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Draco Llasa
Just to reiterate.. we know its a bad change and we have similar concerns.. we are really looking for constructive feedback please. if you want to rant and rage use the other thread :)

Errrm, so I guess any feedback will only be considered constructive if it reinforces your view? Smile

As much I appreciate the initial post and what it's trying to do, I fear this will become another mud-slinging thread.


If you think the changes are great and are prepared to give numbers to those thoughts then your input is also welcome.

I espesially love the guy questioning the assumption that the change was bad, was told to provide 'numbers' to show it wasn't bad. They're basically working on the assumption that all 0.0 must provide proper income through anomalies.

'Fields and Farms' can go screw themselves, we also need 'Deserts and Wastelands'.

How did the change affect my income? Not at all. How would it affect my income if I was still running around in Immensea? Not at all.

The farms and fields make you guys lazy and completely blind to treasure hunts in deserts and wastelands, which is infinitely better gameplay and a much better target to aim for improvement.

Ratnose Banker
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:50:00 - [47]
 

I have always been against pvp in a roleplay sense so when my alliances space was made worthless, I had 1 option: high sec lvl4s. I refuse to fight for better space so I think CCP should either boost 0.0 space so we can all make good isk or otherwise boost high sec missions so I can make the same isk as I did before but in high sec. Thanks

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:51:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: White Tree on 20/04/2011 00:50:58
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Draco Llasa
Just to reiterate.. we know its a bad change and we have similar concerns.. we are really looking for constructive feedback please. if you want to rant and rage use the other thread :)

Errrm, so I guess any feedback will only be considered constructive if it reinforces your view? Smile

As much I appreciate the initial post and what it's trying to do, I fear this will become another mud-slinging thread.


If you think the changes are great and are prepared to give numbers to those thoughts then your input is also welcome.

I espesially love the guy questioning the assumption that the change was bad, was told to provide 'numbers' to show it wasn't bad. They're basically working on the assumption that all 0.0 must provide proper income through anomalies.

'Fields and Farms' can go screw themselves, we also need 'Deserts and Wastelands'.

How did the change affect my income? Not at all. How would it affect my income if I was still running around in Immensea? Not at all.

The farms and fields make you guys lazy and completely blind to treasure hunts in deserts and wastelands, which is infinitely better gameplay and a much better target to aim for improvement.
Do you actually get what we mean by farms & fields, I mean do you understand what the whole picture entails, etc?

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.20 01:08:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: White Tree
Do you actually get what we mean by farms & fields, I mean do you understand what the whole picture entails, etc?

I've played civ, and there you had places that no matter how much irrigation, farming, and tech you invested in still the results would be sub-par.

Those are Deserts.

Sounds like you want everything to be nice Fields that you can turn into Farms.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.20 01:50:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
Just to reiterate.. we know its a bad change and we have similar concerns..


When you say 'we', are you saying every member of the CSM, the entire EVE community or what?

P0le Dancer
Posted - 2011.04.20 02:44:00 - [51]
 

"Every country has the government it deserves."
JOSEPH MARIE DE MAISTRE
I guess it applies to the Eve Community as well.

We get it already. NC and friends (CSM 6) should be able to dictate terms to the rest of null sec and the anom nerf erodes at their ability to build a zillion gajillion member alliance.
It's unfortunate that you're using your CSM status as a passive agressive means of forwarding the NC agenda, but I guess it's to be expected.

Ruthless Erection
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:00:00 - [52]
 

To be quite honest,

I haven't really noticed that much of a change to the isk income. I miss running my havens & sanctums.

If you were hoping more complex's would spawn, you were wrong. In the 2 months I've been down here, I've gotten 2 complex's. I've gotten 3 dominiation spawns, but no loot worth while to speak of. Oh Escalations too. I made 100m off my Escalation. That blows.

Overall, nothings really changed. However, if you TRUELY wanted to screw with isk, why not mess with moon mining? Limit how many moon miners per corporation or i.e. alliance. Train a skill to be able to take over more moons. Make 1 moon miner per moon. Just a few ideas...

Corpus Sharkie
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:21:00 - [53]
 

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
A wise man once told me "If it isnt broken dont fix it". You may not have heard this saying before.
The main concern I have with the removal of sanctums and havens, is the effect on our Corp. Newer memebers are now struggling to make sufficient isk to make improvements in ships and equipment. Most good gear is very expensive and previous goals and aspirations have been shattered. The next point , I make is that some players (me included) just like to chat and run missions and such. Now we just chat and grizzle. Some people do not want to PvP or mine. My Corp stated it would give me more time to find my lost drones
You would make me a happy chappie to return to the status quo.

Cinder Prime
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:26:00 - [54]
 

Can't even cancel my subscription without bugs ugh

ERROR: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.

Tarikan
Minmatar
Hardcore p0wnography
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:29:00 - [55]
 

I live primarily in Detorid.

before the patch came through i made about 80-100 million ever 3 hours, and it was sufficiently for me. I didn't enjoy the anomalies, but what i did enjoy was that i was able to do the anomalies with my friend. My friend and i would go to haven to haven or sanctum to sanctum for 3 hours and rack in the isk that i previously stated.

After the patch was set in our system has a forsaken hub as it's best, and i found myself not ratting as much...and most days not at all. Recently i get on eve, update skills and PI, and swing my ship around in the POS. While it may seem like i am whining, i am now making closer to 10-20 mill isk an hour.

I am in the current process of shipping to high-sec and to continue on lvl 3 and lvl 4 missions. I do wish to stay in null-sec but the game will stagnate for me if i continue to stay and not gain isk.

Cinder Prime
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:35:00 - [56]
 

Subscription successfully cancelled
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Finaly...

Glacius Prime
Gallente
Segmentum Solar
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:40:00 - [57]
 

Subscription Status: Cancelled
Will be suspended 4/25/2011
Total Number Of Payments: 35

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:44:00 - [58]
 

can I haz your stuff?

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:44:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Cinder Prime
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Finaly...


Originally by: Glacius Prime
Subscription Status: Cancelled
Will be suspended 4/25/2011
Total Number Of Payments: 35


Can I have your stuffs?

Semantica Semah
Posted - 2011.04.20 04:13:00 - [60]
 

In the past, sweeping nerfs to this game have netted results far removed from the goals intended. This is because no-one including the games owners can possibly foresee the ongoing ripple effects of changes to the rules in a sandbox environment. The stated intention in part is to make null sec more accesible to smaller alliances. I do not see this happening in the future, certainly no evidence of that happening as of today.
I am a member of a small alliance and that is something I now consider a misfortune. One of the corps within our alliance has already defected to the NC. More will follow. The shame of this is I have enjoyed my time in null sec, especially learning to PVP whilst having the income to support it, but I have already moved my mining characters to high sec due to constant red activity, I am merely waiting for my corp to move to high sec before I move my remaining two characters out as well. I do NOT believe this change was done to benefit small alliances, nor do I believe it was done to increase PVP. As a reflection of the real world, EVE is an outstanding success, we see the rich getting richer and taking over the political reins. As an escape from reality, it is therefore for those same reasons increasingly an overwhelming failure.
I trust this falls within the editorial policy of this thread.


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