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Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 14:55:00 - [31]
 

Part of the issue you cant seem to see Hippey is that you are wanting to set conditions on how people play with no regard for how they might want to play.

" Crepiscule, like I said, if you're a trader on a trade route, what the hell are you doing firing at a pirate in a cruiser?"

Why is the pirate in a cruiser? Why isn't he in a frigate?

Ever seen what the mid-slots on a badger can do to someone trying to shoot them?

You can "follow" people through gates - you just can't gaurentee you'll catch them solo - which is the point, use a team.


Carte-blanceh restrictions on jumping due to "aggressive" actions just restrict variety in a game. They dont add to it.


This remains a convulted "fix" for something that isn't even broken.


Ask for an anti-jump device instead.


Does everything you want it to without any of the associated gameplay issues or restrictions on play styles - indeed it adds to it, particularly if theres an anti-jump-scrambler.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 15:12:00 - [32]
 

1st, there is no anti jump scrambler.

Second, don't preach to me about going after pirates with a team. I've done it solo, I've done it with 7 people total, you I doubt have ever done it by the way you talk about it (use scramblers and webifiers to prevent them from jumping, wth is that????)

What the hell can a team do in following a person. The whole team will exit 20 jumps from stargate. Pirate will **** his pants and jump. We now have to travel 8km to get into 12km range to jump. On the other side, we won't see him. He's had too much time ahead to jump and warp somewhere else. There is no way to find someone in a solarsystem. There is no way to tell if they're docked or in space. So how exactly am I supposed to find them hmmm?

Honestly man, I welcome contructive criticism on my ideas and like a good debate, but please, know what the HELL you're talking about before you talk about it.

NGRU Rix
Dark Design
Posted - 2003.07.02 15:14:00 - [33]
 

If you don't want to fight at a gate, then learn to use an MWD and shield boosters, run to the gate and jump through.

As for preventing Pirates, or anyone for that matter, from running away when they are about to lose, hope for a Jump Gate Prevention Module. Basically it would prevent the ship from asking for a jump from the gate (transmission jamming), not prevent the gate from functioning as it should. Making the gate unavailble after firing a weapon would be wrong, especially to those defending themselves and trying to pass at the same time.

I do agree on gates recognizing your Sec Status tho. It would not prevent you from jumping but would inform local Concord or Police that a -1 or lower character has entered a High Security (.8 and up) system. The local police would merely tail you until you left the system waiting for you to screw up. If you don't they leave you be. That makes sense to me and does not hinder a less than reputable character from traveling through Empire space to get skills and whatnot. Just makes it a touchy situation for them and reinforces the criminal aspect of being a bad person.

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 15:31:00 - [34]
 

<<<<Honestly man, I welcome contructive criticism on my ideas and like a good debate, but please, know what the HELL you're talking about before you talk about it.>>>>


Hippey please refrain from making personal attacks and please refrain from deliberately misquoting. You're being pointlessly aggressive and its not needed as the moderator has already pointed out.

I said request a jump-scrambler. I said nothing about them being there.

As for team hunting, when we do it we have the team already in the other systems - we dont just tail-chase them and hope we catch up.

<<<There is no way to tell if they're docked or in space. So how exactly am I supposed to find them hmmm? >>>

Furthermore you can find anybody anywhere in system using the scanner - even if they have fallen-short after a jump. (Anybody - anywhere. If you don't know how to then join the Explorers channel in-game, they give lessons on how to use it fully). More pointedly this is nothing to do with preventing people jumping at gates. Nothing at all.

You can also bookmark gates (as we did for mara-passari) so you jump right onto them.. you don't have to jump in blind and hope you're somewhere nearby..

I'm in total agrement that bounty-hunting tools are sub-standard but none of that makes a case for preventing people from jumping at gates.

As i said - request a long-range jump-scrambler.

Edited by: Morkt Drak on 02/07/2003 15:32:23

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 15:58:00 - [35]
 

I don't think I should spend a slot with this. It's illogical from RP perspective and gameplay perspective for someone to be shooting right up until the point they enter abnormal speeds that allow you to travel instantly between systems.

Okay that would be the RP perspective. The gameplay perspective, is that it's a cheap tactic that prevents bounty hunters from doing their jobs. It prevents ANYONE from wanting justice from the pirate.

I know you'd like unlimited restriction, but this is a game and it needs to have fun. Pirate having the upper hand in every situation is NOT fun. To have fun, you can't have anarchy. To prevent anarchy you have to have rules.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 16:19:00 - [36]
 

"As for team hunting, when we do it we have the team already in the other systems - we dont just tail-chase them and hope we catch up."


See this. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Why should I need a team of at least 10 people to catch ONE stinking pirate? I'm a bounty hunter. Bounty hunters mostly hunt alone. I should be able to hunt ONE pirate on my own, get him into a 1on1 situation and fight him. Right now this is impossible, you yourself have stated it in the quote.


Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 16:25:00 - [37]
 

Its no more illogical than warping, from either perspective.

Following your logic there should also then be a timestamp on warping with hot-guns.

A Jump Scrambler solves the issue now and for when jump-engines are available also.

Its neater, doesn't impose gameplay restrictions, indeed adds to them, and also allows for counters. Player choices all round and additional depth to gameplay. Ya cant ask for more.


- - -


No it's not impossible, it's just not easy.

But that has nothing to do with stopping people jumping at gates.

Simply turn the tables - YOU wait at the gate for THEM.

With all the talk on how easy piracy is, and how they have the upper hand, emulating precisely what they do should be a piece of cake.

Mynah Birde
Posted - 2003.07.02 16:30:00 - [38]
 

Having warp scramblers prevent you using gates works for me without the need for a new module. It has the bonus of being part of the already established electronic warfare mechanism. Much better than a new arbitrary game rule which a 15 second delay on jump if you fired your weapons lately would be.

I just think its a shame that these gate/portal/zoning issues weren't dealt with in beta. Every game to date that has PvP and bottlenecks where players have to warp in or out have had to deal with these problems, yet here is yet another one with the same issues.

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2003.07.02 18:10:00 - [39]
 

Alot of you seem to miss the point completely.

The point is simple.. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CAMP A GATE WITH GUNS FIRING AND BE ABLE TO JUMP OUT AND LOG OFF JUST CAUSE SOME PEOPLE CAME TO KICK YOUR ASS.

If the warp scrambler prevented someone from using the gate then that would actually be quite acceptable.
Any reasonable solution to prevent people from gate camping and jumping instantly when they know they will get owned is fine with me. But to just reply with some of the rediculous statements that have been said is just pointless.

mrmille
Amarr
S-44
Posted - 2003.07.02 18:24:00 - [40]
 

Well I agree to some part that gate jumping should change to make it somewhat more difficult...for bouth pirates and travelers!

My suggestion is that you shouldn't be abel to jump while you are locked. That would even it up, also for the pirates since you just can't boost up your microwarp and jump yourself.

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 18:32:00 - [41]
 

<<<<you shouldn't be abel to jump while you are locked.>>>>


Griefers heaven.


Locking isnt an offensive act.

I lock you with my shuttle and you can't jump.

Now what ya gonna do?

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2003.07.02 19:28:00 - [42]
 

Actually after some thinking I that the Warp Scambler preventing people from using the gate is worse. This will actually give the pirate an even bigger tool to screw people over since you cant warp away or jump through the gate.
The simplest solution is the time stamp on hot guns and not allow people who instigate an attack within 30kms to use the gate. Warping to another spot within system is perfectly acceptable

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 19:33:00 - [43]
 

<<<This will actually give the pirate an even bigger tool to screw people over since you cant warp away or jump through the gate.>>>

Which is exactly what Hippey wants to be able to do TO pirates.

Jump Scramblers will owrk just as well as Warp Scramblers wihtout any false game mechanics that are so obviously biased to be anti-aggressor.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 19:37:00 - [44]
 

"Simply turn the tables - YOU wait at the gate for THEM."

Won't work as per my comments here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=15293

This is why I claim there is no way to fight them, and you really still haven't given me one Morkt.

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 19:59:00 - [45]
 

Worked fine for me - only problem is knowing where they are, where they are likely to go.

Im not here to solve others bounty-hunting problems though - hope you can see that. Nor is this suggestion of yours "just" about that, which is the problem - it affects all players.

Im against the idea of enforcing arbritrary gameplay mechanics on a subset of the populaiton.

Its unrealistic in the extreme - and it doesn't address your own problems with pinning down a pirate solo.

Why you are so set against a jump-scrambler yet accept a warp-scrambler ive no idea. its the simplest solution all round.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 20:15:00 - [46]
 

It's not MY problem that I can't catch a pirate. EVERY bounty hunters is. Name me some bounty hunters that have single-handedly killed the jump happy Tank?

Can't do it. He starts firing at you as soon as you exit at 20km .If you actually get his shields down, he jumps. You're still 5-6 km until you can get it range to jump. By this, pirate has popped on the other side and warped GOD KNOWS WHERE.

Reverse situation. You wait for HIM. He pops 20km out, he remembers you from your first meeting listed above. He knows you can hurt him. He immediatelly warps somewhere, all while in a timer. By the time the timer wears out, he's in warp and now you can NOT lock him. He sits there for 10 seconds laughing at you, whiule you try to figure which of those 8 icons all in one place he could be going to. Wheeeeeeee. It's VERY possible isn't it?

That's how 1on1's go. That's why no 1on1 ever actually HAPPEN!

Dammit man.. why can't you see that?

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 20:22:00 - [47]
 

I can. A bounty hunter after a pirate is identical to a pirate after a specific player.


That why most pirates dont go for specific players.

See that perfectly well and agreed there is a prolbme many posts back.

But your proposal here isn't the solution - for starters in your example wiith you waiting at teh gate and firing on the pirate all he has to do is run for the gate and jump out.

YOU then cant. YOU were the aggressor.

See?

Arbritrary rules ALWAYS backfire.

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2003.07.02 20:49:00 - [48]
 

Yes I do see and thats not such a problem in my opinion.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 20:59:00 - [49]
 

This will only hamper me if I am open fire and he never does. How often does that happen?

I warp in, first time we ever meet, he thinks I'm just another target. He opens fire at me. Ooops. Now you're screwed. You ain't jumping nowhere.

And the reason I don't want to use a jump scrambler is because that's one thing only BOUNTY hunters would need, not pirate, and medium slots are so very rare and precious as it is. Impossible for Minmatar ships, and Brutors apprently compromise most of the bounty hunters. The fact the Rifter is so fast signifies that.


Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 21:47:00 - [50]
 

nah that slike saying the only people who would want an anti-warp scrambler is traders.

Its true - but only as far as it goes.

A pirate would also want it if he thought someone was after him.

Which is the same for the jump scrambler.

The point is though that if you implemented something like this a pirate wouldn't fire back - because they then know they can get away.

If they think they can take you down they will fight - but then you cant get away.

It aint going to work.

jump-scrambler is the best solution.


Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 21:57:00 - [51]
 

Okay I'll admit that maybe it is. But how long will it take to create one of those and balance it and the anti-jump scrambler? And you have to admit that you don't know for a fact, and neither do I, what WILL happen if my idea is implemented. You don't know how pirates WILL act. You said it yourself, you're not a pirate.

I mean you're not going to be a big pirate by not firing at anyone that approaches the gate. You'll have to take the risk. And once you fire, you ain't going nowhere. That is, you're not JUMPING through THAT gate so easily. You can still warp out and warp to another gate, and by then, 30 seconds will have run out.

And bounty hunters don't ever plan on jumping through to escape. Not me, not the honorable ones. I came for the bounty, and I ain't leaving til I get it. So I ain't running.



Edited by: Hippey on 02/07/2003 21:58:43

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 22:13:00 - [52]
 

I'll comment if you don't mind. If a ship comes in and won't stop for extortion then we will fire on it.

Hip's solution wouldn't really effect me so much as maybe others because I'm not usually near the gate. I'll warp to a planet or a bookmark most likely.

The Jump scrambler has the benefit of being usable by anyone (pirates included). However I can already hear the cries of anguish by players who normally would make a run to the gate but can't since the pirates have jammed them.

You can bet %99.9 of pirates will have one with them at a gate. My guess is players running shipments would not. Therefore it would be looked at as another way pirates are having it easy.

Edited by: Crepiscule on 02/07/2003 22:13:59

Ehxo
Minmatar
Body Count Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2003.07.02 22:21:00 - [53]
 

There's one thing that bugs me with the idea about preventing someone to jump after attacking anything, INCLUDING NPC pirates...

That would mean that someone wouldn't be able to kill pirates (NPC) and then just warp away to continue his route.

30 seconds is WAY too long too, 10-15 seconds is plenty enough as well.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.02 22:40:00 - [54]
 

Nononono, I never said the timer should work on NPC entities. Only players.

And good point Crepicule :)

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.02 23:20:00 - [55]
 

it is a good point Crep - but i'd just refer us all to what Hipper said earlier:

"Med slots are precious"

Now a "pirate" has to have 3 med slots for Jump-scramble, warp-scramble and Stasis-web

The "target" only needs to counter one of those to get the chance to "get away".

Thus the benefit is with the escapee.


- - -

Obviously this means that it makes the job of the "Hunter" (pirate OR bountyhunter) harder in terms of what they "must always equip".


Looks like the solo bounty hunter will need a scorpion (which, oddly enough, is what i said about 4 months ago)


Edit: Btw i still say that finding them is the hardest job, not killing them - and you should still need a license! (positive sec only)

Edited by: Morkt Drak on 02/07/2003 23:22:11

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.03 00:39:00 - [56]
 

Oh hell yes. You should need to have a license and getting a license gets you special tools and items, but that's coming in and is somewhat long term.

I'm saying we need a short-term solution and this just seems the easiest.

Morkt Drakt
Caldari
Black Omega Security
Posted - 2003.07.03 00:43:00 - [57]
 

nah

jump-scramblers the easiest.... by far, doesn't need to checks on aggresor or any of that.

which reminds me that the new gate code might play with the idea in anycase, can only attack lower than -5 in empire space without gate guns getting involved.

Scramble and stasis are now "aggressive" moves - so....

need to check that though.

Crepiscule
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.03 01:03:00 - [58]
 

I guess I look at it from a team perspective. I wouldn't be running all of those things but at least one of the people in my gang would.

For the solo pirate scenario this is good. For the gang of pirates, I see the situation worse for the indie pilots or whoever has the misfortune to warp to the gate.

But if keeping players from using the jumpgates is your goal, I think the scrambler is the best answer at this time.

Hippey
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2003.07.03 04:08:00 - [59]
 

Well fine if my idea is bad, scrap it. But please CCP, I hope you implement SOMETHING soon.

Balsak
Minmatar
Friends of Bigfoot
Posted - 2003.07.03 04:24:00 - [60]
 

If the gate guns attacks someone who opens fire on anyone with a -5 sec or better then that might be very good solution.

Like Hippey said. Something needs to be done. It really is rather silly for someone with -10 sec to just sit and attack anyone he feels he wants to and then just jump through the gate and log off to freedom. This would be fine and acceptable behaviour in 0.0 space or even 0.1 space.


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