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Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.04.17 11:01:00 - [31]
 

I didn't need a mentor because I wasn't a drooling idiot when I started to play the game. I also don't have ADD and understand that patience and thinking things through pays off in the end. It all comes down to young people today don't want to work for ANYTHING, even in a virtual world. They want everything handed to them and made easy because using your brain is just too much trouble.

Jesus f*cking Christ, it's a f*cking video game, people. Eve REALLY isn't that hard. The problem people have with it boils down to the fact that they're ADD-riddled lemmings who can't pay attention for more than 5 seconds at a time, so they die and then uninstall and go whine about how hard Eve is on WoW forums.

Imagine what they would think about old NES games like Metroid and Blaster Master...those games required hours of patience. The simple answer is people today are lazy with the attention span of squirrel.

Eve Online is not nuclear physics; all you have to do is listen, pay attention, and heed the advice of others. If that's too much for people, then they should GTFO of my game.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.04.17 11:08:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Conura

Just to provoke some discussion, do you think the game could make improvements to the start game? Perhaps making new players PVP immune (not able to engage in it, or enter low sec) until changing a menu option so that they can't make mistakes? i don't know...I bet the game loses a lot of players this way - I've tried to get a lot of friends into the game and most of them leave whether it's after a month or a week. It's not that they're not patient, it's that the game fails entirely to support new players through the hefty learning experience...The tutorial simply doesn't seem to do enough...

What are your thoughts?


I was in school when I played Elite (the spiritual precursor to EVE), not in kindergarten, but young enough to understand basic risks - don't screw around in pirate heavy systems and master the docking sequence. The former was straightforward, and for the latter I knew if I screwed up the docking, which required you to manually align your ship to the station spin, I'll lose the ship AND the valuable cargo I'm carrying. All that work, up in smoke!

Now, you're basically implying, in the year 2011, you need to allow for babies to play?

While I can certainly sympathize and understand the importance of making sure new players are well taken care off (at least for their first 30-days), making SILLY allowances because one is afraid they might not like EVE and leave, is not the right move. If the warnings were ignored, then re-design them (within reasons). If they are still ignored, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

The tutorials have come a long way since Trinity, I've no doubt there may still be some more room for improvements. However, babysitting new players to the extreme in terms of making the "immune" to certain things will be setting the wrong expectations and giving the wrong impressions to these new players (not to mention the gameplay loopholes it'll create). That is not EVE.

vulnevia
The Exploited.
Posted - 2011.04.17 11:13:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: El Puerco
Originally by: vulnevia
Originally by: Conura
Yeah he's got a three week trial so I'm going to keep it training...Will try him again in 48 hours lol


So you're gonna use his login and password,, and train his skills? Sweet, reported!




report why?


Uh, you do know that it's against the EULA to share accounts?

Conura
Caldari
Shinryaku
Posted - 2011.04.17 11:50:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Conura on 17/04/2011 11:50:56
Originally by: Astenion
I didn't need a mentor because I wasn't a drooling idiot when I started to play the game. I also don't have ADD and understand that patience and thinking things through pays off in the end. It all comes down to young people today don't want to work for ANYTHING, even in a virtual world. They want everything handed to them and made easy because using your brain is just too much trouble.

Jesus f*cking Christ, it's a f*cking video game, people. Eve REALLY isn't that hard. The problem people have with it boils down to the fact that they're ADD-riddled lemmings who can't pay attention for more than 5 seconds at a time, so they die and then uninstall and go whine about how hard Eve is on WoW forums.

Imagine what they would think about old NES games like Metroid and Blaster Master...those games required hours of patience. The simple answer is people today are lazy with the attention span of squirrel.

Eve Online is not nuclear physics; all you have to do is listen, pay attention, and heed the advice of others. If that's too much for people, then they should GTFO of my game.


Entirely disagree; as I said, this particular friend is a huge fan of the DCS series, including all the knowledge, mental mathematics and intricate knowledge required to fly it. He is also a doctor in the real world (albeit a trainee as he's in his early 20s).

Suffice to say, intellectual capacity and hatred of deferred gratification was not the cause here - it was more that he has little time available and it felt wasted! This is fair enough as it's the nature of the game, but a little more carebear time in the first week would be useful for keeping players.

Conura
Caldari
Shinryaku
Posted - 2011.04.17 11:54:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: vulnevia
Originally by: El Puerco
Originally by: vulnevia
Originally by: Conura
Yeah he's got a three week trial so I'm going to keep it training...Will try him again in 48 hours lol


So you're gonna use his login and password,, and train his skills? Sweet, reported!




report why?


Uh, you do know that it's against the EULA to share accounts?


rofl, I bet your boss loves you...

Char'sul Omar
Minmatar
LazyBoyz Band of Recreational Flyers
Posted - 2011.04.17 12:09:00 - [36]
 

Meh. I remember my first days in EVE, back in 2006. While it's true the tutorial doesn't tell you everything(especially back then), it does get you started on basic manoevering your ship and the basic rules of combat. realizing full well the scale of this game it got me reading the forums and databases, wikis, etc. as well to round out my understanding of this universe.

And even thought I didn't make **** for ISK, whenever I saw someone flying something expensive I didn't give up, I just went "Wow nice, how'd he get through the grind?" and searched for better and faster ways to make ISK.

My point is, when you start this game you should be (or aspire to be) the person that doesn't ragequit because everyone around him has better stuffs, but instead thinks "Well if they managed it, why not me?" and starts looking for (or inventing) better ways to get where he wants to be.

Circumventing the grind in inventive ways > Drudging along the beaten path

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2011.04.17 12:48:00 - [37]
 

Just to reiterate on what others have said and hopefully post more helpful advice.

New players NEED to be belt looped to those that bring them in to the game. It's not enough to tell them to do the tutorial and get back to you, you need to go through the tutorial with them, tell them about the skill training mechanic in the first instance if they tutorial doesn't in the first minute or so. This will then tell them about levelling Eve style.

Pass them a few million Isk and TAKE A BREAK from running tutorials in order to do a few missions with them.

It's complex and scary for them, if it's been a while since you've done the tutorial, create a new character and realise how annoying it all is further the annoyance and realise you have no idea what modules are for or what the undocumented effects are. Or worse spending 25% of your wallet on something you can't yet use doh, all been there.

Remind them that they're not going to learn the game in a week, let alone a year but they can have fun when in the game. In the first week or so limit their time to an hour at most so they don't get burned out or to overwhelmed too quickly.

Introduce them to other people, corp mates for example that can take them and do other things so they get a true sense of the scope that is Eve.

I've introduced a few people to Eve, only one has remained and I believe it comes down to the people he met very early on in the game.

Give positive feedback regularly. If they achieve something congratulate them. If they make a mistake be understanding and advise them how to avoid it in the future. (e.g Ignore local in Jita, if someone steals from a jet can in Empire you are under zero obligation to shoot them in their mining/hauling ship).

If possible, meet up on the weekend and find out if they're enjoying the game and what they want to concentrate on.

Give out links to the 3rd party software out there that can be used to further their Eve Experience.

Have fun with the new player as they could end up your CEO/Enemy one day.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.04.17 13:05:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Conura
The tutorial simply doesn't seem to do enough...

What are your thoughts?


There used to be a time with very little tutorial, if you even want to call it that. There was no eve wiki, no welcome pages. Players where told to join a player corp to learn the ropes. That seamed to have worked better then what we got nowadays.

For your friend, well, if he ignores a warning message and is than mad about the game, it might no be the game.

El Puerco
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.04.17 13:13:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: El Puerco on 17/04/2011 13:16:59
Edited by: El Puerco on 17/04/2011 13:14:37
Edited by: El Puerco on 17/04/2011 13:13:40
Originally by: vulnevia
Originally by: El Puerco
Originally by: vulnevia
Originally by: Conura
Yeah he's got a three week trial so I'm going to keep it training...Will try him again in 48 hours lol


So you're gonna use his login and password,, and train his skills? Sweet, reported!




report why?




Uh, you do know that it's against the EULA to share accounts?


but but.. what if the account is a gift then?

(*edit* for having no typing skills at all..)

Lokaas
Posted - 2011.04.17 13:24:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Lokaas on 17/04/2011 13:24:56
Nope, I have no sympathy for this guy. Tell him to play for two plus years before he becomes that curmudgeonly. I have a friend that I tried to get into the game and he stayed all of one hour before realizing that the game isn't all fast paced and shoot 'em up=BORING.

I do think there ought to be a hop in and shoot fast paced element to the game to give people something immediate to do. Faction War and Incursions is sort of supposed to do that but fails miserably.

There could be a sort of instanced battleground mechanic for new player kicks as well as people that don't have something else going on at the time.

An idea I've had is to add an element that is similar to a game that I thought EVE was copying and didn't last long due to server issues was Terminus. It was a spaceship simulation style game and I originally thought EVE was a redux of that game.

Anyway, the idea is that when a player joins a militia or even better, like Terminus, you actually join the militaries as a cadet and can then move up in rank and here's the best part… you are issued a ship. The type of ship you can get would be dependent upon mission, rank and ship skills but you would be working for the military so it'd make sense that you'd be issued a ship. These ships can not shoot other non-military issued ships and vise-a-versa but it wouldn't matter anyway because you'd just be undocking to an instanced version of the game that would deal solely with an immediate, shooter environment.

Fun for all, no compromising the actual EVE environment. Really, how's that any different than the whole walking in stations mechanic?

TravisWB
Posted - 2011.04.17 14:29:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Conura
Edited by: Conura on 16/04/2011 19:52:35
Edited by: Conura on 16/04/2011 19:52:16
Edited by: Conura on 16/04/2011 19:51:43
Not me - I've been playing ages. A friend of mine just started the game a few days ago and after getting through the tutorial (slowly), bought his first rifter and started to collect the parts. The first moments of most MMOs are quite dull but Eve is particularly slow when you start. Anyway, long story short, he autopilots into 0.4 (with knowing what it was) and got podded. Having spoken to the guy that killed him (who's answer was "haha noob", or something similar), he quit and uninstalled.

He's quite a patient guy who is happy to sit there for hours analysing tactics on games, however, in his own words, his first experience of Eve was clicking and flying, followed by losing all that work.

I've explained to him that part of the appeal of Eve is that it's a hugely risky, slow paced game in which everything you do should be seen as part of a long term investment as opposed to instant gratification, that said, he has a point...His first and only 6 hours of the game were miserable.

Just to provoke some discussion, do you think the game could make improvements to the start game? Perhaps making new players PVP immune (not able to engage in it, or enter low sec) until changing a menu option so that they can't make mistakes? i don't know...I bet the game loses a lot of players this way - I've tried to get a lot of friends into the game and most of them leave whether it's after a month or a week. It's not that they're not patient, it's that the game fails entirely to support new players through the hefty learning experience...The tutorial simply doesn't seem to do enough...

What are your thoughts?


HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHA!

Cough, HAAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAAAHAHAHAAHHAAAHAHAHA

It is amazing that anyone makes it past the trial period.

vulnevia
The Exploited.
Posted - 2011.04.18 08:14:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Conura


rofl, I bet your boss loves you...


Not as much as your future cellmates will love you ♥

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 09:14:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Conura
Edited by: Conura on 17/04/2011 11:50:56
Entirely disagree; as I said, this particular friend is a huge fan of the DCS series, including all the knowledge, mental mathematics and intricate knowledge required to fly it. He is also a doctor in the real world (albeit a trainee as he's in his early 20s).



A supersmart doctor that cant read a warning sign is not so smart. I feel sorry for his future patients.


Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.04.18 09:36:00 - [44]
 

If your friend can't stand seeing hard work vanish in mere seconds, this is NOT the game for him. In the early days, if you can't put losses behind you and learn valuable lessons with each one, you won't be in this game for long.

EON Dogma
E-ON
Posted - 2011.04.18 10:12:00 - [45]
 

Why not use the ISK Volume 1 guide? The game has been crying out for a manual since its release eight years ago and now it's here! The guide comes in two forms, either a free .pdf download or can be bought as a physical entity from the EVE Store.

Kazacy
Caldari
Silent Overwatch
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2011.04.18 10:15:00 - [46]
 

To the OP:
when i started eve in 2006 i was poded in my first day (and in the next days btw) like your friend. I was angry at that moment, but in time i learned that in fact i was lucky. If your friend cannot understand this simple fact (ffs we talk about pixels here), good riddance we don't need him here.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.04.18 10:16:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Conura
Edited by: Conura on 16/04/2011 19:52:35
Edited by: Conura on 16/04/2011 19:52:16
Edited by: Conura on 16/04/2011 19:51:43
Not me - I've been playing ages. A friend of mine just started the game a few days ago and after getting through the tutorial (slowly), bought his first rifter and started to collect the parts. The first moments of most MMOs are quite dull but Eve is particularly slow when you start. Anyway, long story short, he autopilots into 0.4 (with knowing what it was) and got podded. Having spoken to the guy that killed him (who's answer was "haha noob", or something similar), he quit and uninstalled.

He's quite a patient guy who is happy to sit there for hours analysing tactics on games, however, in his own words, his first experience of Eve was clicking and flying, followed by losing all that work.

I've explained to him that part of the appeal of Eve is that it's a hugely risky, slow paced game in which everything you do should be seen as part of a long term investment as opposed to instant gratification, that said, he has a point...His first and only 6 hours of the game were miserable.

Just to provoke some discussion, do you think the game could make improvements to the start game? Perhaps making new players PVP immune (not able to engage in it, or enter low sec) until changing a menu option so that they can't make mistakes? i don't know...I bet the game loses a lot of players this way - I've tried to get a lot of friends into the game and most of them leave whether it's after a month or a week. It's not that they're not patient, it's that the game fails entirely to support new players through the hefty learning experience...The tutorial simply doesn't seem to do enough...

What are your thoughts?


My thoughts are that he should have read the pop up warning that DID appear.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.18 10:38:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Feligast
There is a big ol warning popup that comes up when you're about to jump into lowsec, saying you are not protected in there. He had to click that to get in there. IF he can't understand a giant warning sign, that's his problem. There's no need to completely overhaul the game because he was dumb.


Confirmed, if he is too stupid to read warning messages he would probably have had a very frustrating time in eve anyway.

Mrs Snowman
Posted - 2011.04.18 10:56:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Feligast
There is a big ol warning popup that comes up when you're about to jump into lowsec, saying you are not protected in there. He had to click that to get in there. IF he can't understand a giant warning sign, that's his problem. There's no need to completely overhaul the game because he was dumb.


Confirmed, if he is too stupid to read warning messages he would probably have had a very frustrating time in eve anyway.


Agreed.

No matter what MMO it is you carefully study any messages when your new. Your friend is a horses ass, buy a new one.

Morphisat
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
Posted - 2011.04.18 11:41:00 - [50]
 

My experience as a new player was just about the same. I got blown up during the intro mission line in low sec. Kinda odd that it send me into low sec. This was more than five years ago though, and I am still here.

If you give up Eve after the very first mishap, this game is probably not for you.

Conura
Caldari
Shinryaku
Posted - 2011.04.18 11:45:00 - [51]
 

Had rather hoped for less random aggression and more intelligent input - I think coming from more complex games, I'm spoilt when it comes to close knit communities. This one seems to be inching closer to a WoW-esque community as of late. Many of you seem to stand by the fact this game requires a high amount of intelligence and anyone from WoW without the "IQ or intellectual capacity" to play should leave..What a load of rubbish, this game is barely more complex than any other MMO and anybody with slightly below average intelligence or above can play it just fine. It's about enticing the player, not hoping they've got the balls to persevere.

Thanks to those few that supplied reasonable messages!

He's back playing again now and enjoying it, though he, like me, does think that the early game needs to be rethought.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.18 12:52:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Conura
He's back playing again now and enjoying it, though he, like me, does think that the early game needs to be rethought.

The whole NGE will be redone in Incarna.

Also try and act as a mentor this time, it is the best way for him to learn the ropes.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 14:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Conura
Had rather hoped for less random aggression and more intelligent input - I think coming from more complex games, I'm spoilt when it comes to close knit communities. This one seems to be inching closer to a WoW-esque community as of late.


Stupid questions get stupid answers.

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:12:00 - [54]
 

There is a warning before going into low sec he has to click past....the warnings are not there just for extra things to click....

Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:29:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
The whole NGE will be redone in Incarna.
You mean NPE. Right? RIGHT?!

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:37:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
The whole NGE will be redone in Incarna.
You mean NPE. Right? RIGHT?!

Doh!

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:39:00 - [57]
 

And the trolls swarm and take over the thread...as usual.

Elyssa MacLeod
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:43:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Pesky LaRue
so, others may disagree but if this incident caused him to quit, he would have quit somewhere down the line anyway so this may have just saved time/effort/frustration.



Some people just arent equipped to play EVE.

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:53:00 - [59]
 

1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

This rule, if followed, means that no new players should play because they can't afford to lose anything.

2. Don't trust anybody

This rule means you can never join a corp, never buy anything on contract, etc etc.

In some ways, EvE shoots itself in the foot right off the bat for a new player.

Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ana Vyr
1. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

This rule, if followed, means that no new players should play because they can't afford to lose anything.
Noob ship prices rising? Invest!


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