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Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.04.14 19:05:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/04/2011 19:07:20
Quote:
No, the Retribution is intended as a PvE frigate.


Please link me to the CCP post where they stated this.

This claim is made even more ridiculous by the fact that:
1. It's a t2 frigate. Those do not make efficient mission runners compared to cruisers and up.
2. Where exactly is the PVE frigate for the other races?

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.04.14 19:25:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Lara Dontral

ECM, on the other hand, shuts down everything, including drone boats if you jam them before they can issue the attack command. Unless you're carrying FoF missiles, you cannot do anything to anyone.



OK, listen up mr whiney i like to post as a chick. Get in a god damn ECM boat before you post anymore about a subject you know nothing about. ECM beats everything? I wish.

This would ONLY be true if you had the ability to switch out your jams on the fly. As has been said earlier, ecm is only useful in "small" gang fights. This means you have to guess on your target ship type if you don't know what your up against. Racial jams on the wrong race simply blow. Its about the same as a non ecm role based ship using a racial jam, its pathetic.

Also, it doesn't shut down everything, (not your mwd or any of your gtfo mods)

Btw, to the post above with all the jam stats. Your way off man. ECM is not nearly that buff. With 2 jam rigs and jam buff mod at lvl 5 skills and a racial jam the grif only gets a strength of about 9.6 (nearly 11 with OH which last for 3 or 4 cycles


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.14 19:26:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
...Also I hate your whole "we have to gimp our ships for ECCM" , Really? they used half their standing fleet just to be able to Jam you and you aren't willing to give up 15% dps to not be perma-jammed?

Run the numbers why don't you.
Array does diddly, you'll need 3+ to make any sort of noticeable difference in anything sub-BS.
Mid ECCM would remove what tank was present and even with two fitted you are looking at 40-50% chance with twin racials (and what ECM boats fits anything but Minnie/Caldari these days).
Implants sets count as a single non-heated mid ECCM or so but clocks in at up to half a billion per set so not really viable outside of low/high.

The only thing with merit in your little blurp was for him to bring a Recon of his own, but then my money would be on the fight never happening in the first place.

The whole use ECCM argument is utterly useless for 90% of all hulls. You either avoid the fight by shipping up, aim for the hills or bring your own .. neither will really give much joy/fun.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.04.14 19:38:00 - [34]
 

Also, how about suggesting some actual improvement here?

All I see so far is a bunch of nerf demands, crying and whining.

This game needs many things - half a dozen more ships into the already large pile of obsolete/broken is not one of them.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.04.14 19:48:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
...Also I hate your whole "we have to gimp our ships for ECCM" , Really? they used half their standing fleet just to be able to Jam you and you aren't willing to give up 15% dps to not be perma-jammed?

Run the numbers why don't you.
Array does diddly, you'll need 3+ to make any sort of noticeable difference in anything sub-BS.
Mid ECCM would remove what tank was present and even with two fitted you are looking at 40-50% chance with twin racials (and what ECM boats fits anything but Minnie/Caldari these days).
Implants sets count as a single non-heated mid ECCM or so but clocks in at up to half a billion per set so not really viable outside of low/high.

The only thing with merit in your little blurp was for him to bring a Recon of his own, but then my money would be on the fight never happening in the first place.

The whole use ECCM argument is utterly useless for 90% of all hulls. You either avoid the fight by shipping up, aim for the hills or bring your own .. neither will really give much joy/fun.


Something seems wrong on your numbers as well, so lets run them.

Lets go with something I have recent experience in, T1 frigs. The grif with max ecm gets 9.5 per racial jam. Lets target the rifter, with a sensor of 7. This means that 9.5/7 = 1.37 (100% chance to jam). Now lets put on a T2 ECCM mid, 96% increase in sensor strength - 13.72. With one jam thats a 69.3% chance to jam. With two jams this goes to 90.5% chance to jam and with 3 jams that is 97.1% chance to jam. This is against the rifter, which has the lowest of all sensor strengths (if not the lowest its down there).

As a veteran ECM pilot, I can tell what WILL happen here. If you know whats going to be fielded, you bring ECM accordingly. If he is ECCM and you miss that first cycle, you die. So if you have two jams, the first mod will turn on, it won't work, then you turn on the second and align out because you know its not gonna stick. This makes you less threatening and in general much less usefull.

This goes for all ship classes and only get better with stronger ships. For a BS that has nearly 20 or so sensor strength, that sensor multiplier is devastating. The MAX racial jam strength your EVER going to get is roughly 15 per jam on the falcon. Putting ECCM is a SINGLE F*CKING mod that can negate an entire SHIP's presence on the field. And that's not even mentioning projected eccm (which of course has inherent risks but pays for it)

In all, its simply because people are unwilling to break from their cookie cutter ship layouts that is creating this problem. If you know your going up against ecm, there are plenty of ways to dodge the bullet, as with every other well balanced pvp mechanic in the game.

Kira Pasisson
M'8'S
Posted - 2011.04.14 20:02:00 - [36]
 

@ lara
u seem to lack a clue about ecm and balancing...
anyway, i pointed out the importance of other recons in comparison so that has sth to do with the topic (balancing stuff), if u have a gang full of ecm ships, try to kill sth :P and wasnt that the idea behind pvp? u need a combination, if i was starting a gang and i was in falcon i would try to get other recons first before a second falcon....but maybe thats just me
concerning the argument: "ecm ships change the tide of a battle" (smaller scale) hell yeah, logis do too, like many other good ship combos...

and finally just ONE example out of experience...recently i was in a gang in a falcon, we engaged a drake, i do have maxed jamm skills....i had a caldari racial fitted (if in a small gang the prob is u need one racial each with 1 slot still free for a second so u have limits concerning a specific race if u are not going to specialize on hurricanes only...) and 3x sig distortian amps, i missed two out of three jamm-cycles although the drake had no eccm fitted and i was thx to the range nerf inside the range of a heavy missile drake...so much about perma jamming and chance based ewar (and yes i know the drake got better sensor strength compared to hurricane..still...)

cheers
Kira

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 20:03:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Karl Planck
Putting ECCM is a SINGLE F*CKING mod that can negate an entire SHIP's presence on the field.

How can you live with yourself when you spew out nonsense like this? Yes, I will fit an ECCM to my Zealot, thereby forcing a Falcon off a field.

What absolute tripe.

If you know you're going up against ECM ships, the "counter" is to "fit ECCM and bring ships that can hit the ECM boats at their range." Don't tart it up as if it's some super ridiculous strategy that we all have to use our supertactical minds to come up with a way to counter. ECM is the "cookie-cutter" strategy. It scales extremely well unless your ECM pilots are too stupid to communicate effectively, up to the point where lag becomes an issue. If you tell me "it's too hard to coordinate ECM in a large gang," that just proves you're a terrible pilot.

The disadvantage of "oh, you need to pick the right racials" is nonsense. Intel exists (again, unless you're awful) and most fleets are made up of one or two races anyway. Besides, it's not like Curse pilots can refit their tracking disruptors to be effective against missile boats, so really you've got it better off Surprised

P.S. If you instantly die when you miss your first jam, you might want to consider sitting 50 or 60km away, instead of at 0km. Just a thought. Alternatively, if ECM ships are so threatening that it's worth ignoring the rest of the fleet until they're off the field, maybe that's just further proof that it's imbalanced Rolling Eyes

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.14 20:33:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Karl Planck
Lets go with something I have recent experience in, T1 frigs...

Why, when the original post mentions Hurricanes and Failcon? Try to keep up Smile

Want to bet I have more frigate/cruiser experience than you? Smile
FW pilot here since the war began, fly the Slicer a lot (lost 50 or so by now I reckon) and use Grail set to help with ec-xx spam .. that is a full 17.5 sensor strength.

Griffin enters and miss a jam, two scorch volleys puts him in armour (provided I am within range) and that is all I get .. after that you are jammed for 20 seconds, more than twice the duration of a normal frig/dessie fight.

But by all means, lets use your Rifter example:
Assuming the Griffin only has the one racial jammer (cap rehargers are a noobs best friend!).
You are giving up 50% of your midslots (one drive mod) to give yourself 30% chance to have 20s in which to kill the giffin before you are killed by whatever he is covering for.
Does that sound like a reasonable mechanic to you? It sure as hell screams "I am broken!" to me.

ECM is semi-balanced (still a ****ty mechanic/effect) on BS level due to inherent numbers but starts breaking at BC and down until it is completely OP when you hit frigates .. low numbers, low slot count, low fittings = no viable counter at all.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.04.14 20:37:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Terianna Eri

How can you live with yourself when you spew out nonsense like this? Yes, I will fit an ECCM to my Zealot, thereby forcing a Falcon off a field.

What absolute tripe.



1 ship driving off a small fleet of ECM, no. A fleet of ECCM boosted ships destroying the purpose of the ecm, yes. My post was with a small gang in mind (like 10 people). This scales accordingly. If you have a few eccm ships (that are fast) you are going to ruin the day for falcons. They don't go fast (if they do they run out of cap quick), they have no tank (that 1600 plate doesn't do much on the falcon).

Originally by: Terianna Eri

If you know you're going up against ECM ships, the "counter" is to "fit ECCM and bring ships that can hit the ECM boats at their range." Don't tart it up as if it's some super ridiculous strategy that we all have to use our supertactical minds to come up with a way to counter. ECM is the "cookie-cutter" strategy. It scales extremely well unless your ECM pilots are too stupid to communicate effectively, up to the point where lag becomes an issue. If you tell me "it's too hard to coordinate ECM in a large gang," that just proves you're a terrible pilot.



Why are you putting words in my mouth? ECM and logi works fine with alterantive FC'ing, so get off your high horse and calm down a bit champ. ECM does scale well, but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

As far as bringing more ecm to the table as a counter, while that is a strategy, it is still simply that (because all you are doing is removing dps from the field). Their are other strategies that work just fine that don't include more ecm.

Originally by: Terianna Eri

The disadvantage of "oh, you need to pick the right racials" is nonsense. Intel exists (again, unless you're awful) and most fleets are made up of one or two races anyway. Besides, it's not like Curse pilots can refit their tracking disruptors to be effective against missile boats, so really you've got it better off Surprised



This reflects only your type of playstyle mr 0.0. Plenty of fights happen without proper intel (roaming gangs gatecamps and wormhole fights come to mind). If you don't have the correct jams you can be completely excluded from the fight (or die trying to warp away :P ).

The curse is its own beast. Yes, it can suck against a drake (not all missile boats) because the TD bonus is negated. However, it still neuts like a champ and hit 100% of the time. It also has a nice tank, OK dps and drones, so....yea, I don't know why the curse is even brought up. Other EWAR exists and doesn't need a nerf/buff.

Originally by: Terianna Eri

There is
P.S. If you instantly die when you miss your first jam, you might want to consider sitting 50 or 60km away, instead of at 0km. Just a thought. Alternatively, if ECM ships are so threatening that it's worth ignoring the rest of the fleet until they're off the field, maybe that's just further proof that it's imbalanced Rolling Eyes


You sure like to presume a lot. 50-60k still isn't that safe. Jam cycles take 20-15sec, and that is a lot of distance for someone to go and ruin your day. Which means you have to get off grid or run the risk of dying.

As far as them being targeted first, your full of sh*t. You go get in a kitsune in your large blobs and tell me how long it takes to get shot down. There are a few reasons FALCONS gets targeted first. A) They are feared. B) They have no tank. C)Falcons are expensive, and we all like to blow up T2 cruisers.

BB's get primaried for the same reasons except for (C).

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.04.14 20:54:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

FW pilot here since the war began, fly the Slicer a lot (lost 50 or so by now I reckon) and use Grail set to help with ec-xx spam .. that is a full 17.5 sensor strength.

Griffin enters and miss a jam, two scorch volleys puts him in armour (provided I am within range) and that is all I get .. after that you are jammed for 20 seconds, more than twice the duration of a normal frig/dessie fight.

But by all means, lets use your Rifter example:
Assuming the Griffin only has the one racial jammer (cap rehargers are a noobs best friend!).
You are giving up 50% of your midslots (one drive mod) to give yourself 30% chance to have 20s in which to kill the giffin before you are killed by whatever he is covering for.
Does that sound like a reasonable mechanic to you? It sure as hell screams "I am broken!" to me.

ECM is semi-balanced (still a ****ty mechanic/effect) on BS level due to inherent numbers but starts breaking at BC and down until it is completely OP when you hit frigates .. low numbers, low slot count, low fittings = no viable counter at all.


Wait a second here. You cannot in your right mind tell me this means the grif is OP. That is laughable (though most pilots share your fear I have found). Grif with a cap charger? wtf? who flys that. Link me the km and I'll go shoot them next time they undock.

The scaling is just fine simply due to number and speed. Lets go back to the example. It takes a grif roughly three cycles to kill a rifter. with that 70% chance (ECCM) your rolling the dice. IF the rifter get a SINGLE cycle, the grif is gonna die in a fire, unless it is aligned out. A typical grif has no tank, and thus has about 1.3 EHP (i think). They your rifter has 20 SECONDS to kill the grif. THAT IS PLENTY OF TIME.

Put this against your slicer and its even worse. A) Hard to jam in teh first place (about 55%). Half the time your gonna be shooting, and it take one missed cycle (maybe 2 if your kiting) to kill the grif. B) speed. As I said before, its not like jams put your ship dead in the water. It is hard has hell to catch a fast ship in a grif (solo).

About your scaling comment. While the falcon can simply screw over almost any frig hull, you only get one per frig. If, idk, 6 ceptors go after a falcon, its gonna die (probably).

TL:DR

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

You are giving up 50% of your midslots (one drive mod) to give yourself 30% chance to have 20s in which to kill the giffin before you are killed by whatever he is covering for.
Does that sound like a reasonable mechanic to you? It sure as hell screams "I am broken!" to me.


Any pvp frig should be able to kill a grif in 20s. In the rifter case, your giving up your web to be able to have a 30% chance of KILLING him, not just locking and shooting. ECM is gambling, and I would take those odds in a fight (in other words, not broken).

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 21:17:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Also, how about suggesting some actual improvement here?

All I see so far is a bunch of nerf demands, crying and whining.

This game needs many things - half a dozen more ships into the already large pile of obsolete/broken is not one of them.


I really hope you're not directing that at me, because the entire second half of my original post suggested several potential fixes to ECM.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 21:36:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Karl Planck[/quote
1 ship driving off a small fleet of ECM, no. A fleet of ECCM boosted ships destroying the purpose of the ecm, yes.

You said I could fit an ECCM mod to my ship to make an ECM ship completely useless. Bringing dedicated ECCM ships is something completely different, and it does not, in fact, make ECM ships completely useless. At the very least, the time, effort, damage, and pilots used to force the ECM ships off the field are ships that are not being used to shoot your DPS or logistics.

Originally by: Karl Planck
Why are you putting words in my mouth? ECM and logi works fine with alterantive FC'ing, so get off your high horse and calm down a bit champ. ECM does scale well, but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

As far as bringing more ecm to the table as a counter, while that is a strategy, it is still simply that (because all you are doing is removing dps from the field). Their are other strategies that work just fine that don't include more ecm.

I didn't put words in your mouth, and please don't tell me to calm down when I'm being perfectly civil. The "ECM doesn't scale well in large fights" is a common statement used by defenders of ECM. Where the hell do "logi and alterantive [sic] FC'ing" come in? (I honestly don't see what you mean).
I also didn't suggest bringing more ECM. You may have misread what I wrote.

Originally by: Karl Planck
The curse is its own beast. Yes, it can suck against a drake (not all missile boats) because the TD bonus is negated. However, it still neuts like a champ and hit 100% of the time. It also has a nice tank, OK dps and drones, so....yea, I don't know why the curse is even brought up. Other EWAR exists and doesn't need a nerf/buff.

I bring up the Curse because no matter what the Curse does, its EWAR will not be able to affect missile boats, whereas ECM ships can refit for the situation. But you raise a good point that the Curse has other strengths.

Originally by: Karl Planck
You sure like to presume a lot. 50-60k still isn't that safe. Jam cycles take 20-15sec, and that is a lot of distance for someone to go and ruin your day. Which means you have to get off grid or run the risk of dying.

As far as them being targeted first, your full of sh*t. You go get in a kitsune in your large blobs and tell me how long it takes to get shot down. There are a few reasons FALCONS gets targeted first. A) They are feared. B) They have no tank. C)Falcons are expensive, and we all like to blow up T2 cruisers.

It's sure safer than 0km, and it gives you a fair bit of time to align to a celestial, particularly as the ships that can cover 50-60km very quickly are frigates which rarely fit ECCM and even if they do have pretty low sensor strengths (which is why they rarely fit it)

If you're telling me that ECM ships don't get primaried where you fly, let me know where you live, cause apparently there are some awful pilots down there. Falcons get primaried not because they are lolt2shiny but because they are annoying and very dangerous. Rolling Eyes
I don't fly Kitsunes because they're bad.

Eternal Noob
Posted - 2011.04.14 21:38:00 - [43]
 

I don't see any crime in introducing a high-ranked skill to boost sensor strength. Even just a small amount per level, to where if it were maxed, would give some ships a better chance at blocking a random ECM.

Like the OP said, all other ewar have both skills and modules that buffer the effects of that opposing ewar. Not vs. ECM, except for modules. Meanwhile, there's multiple skills that an ECM pilot can train to 5, and if he's flying the right ship against a more favorable class of ships, he can just use multi-specs.

I would support a rank 4 sensor strength skill, except I guess it would make some interceptors and other frigate hulls more Ul3eR at gatecamps.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 21:40:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Eternal Noob
I don't see any crime in introducing a high-ranked skill to boost sensor strength. Even just a small amount per level, to where if it were maxed, would give some ships a better chance at blocking a random ECM.

Like the OP said, all other ewar have both skills and modules that buffer the effects of that opposing ewar. Not vs. ECM, except for modules. Meanwhile, there's multiple skills that an ECM pilot can train to 5, and if he's flying the right ship against a more favorable class of ships, he can just use multi-specs.

I would support a rank 4 sensor strength skill, except I guess it would make some interceptors and other frigate hulls more Ul3eR at gatecamps.

What's the point? It would be one of those skills that everyone would have to train to level 5, like engineering or electronics. Might as well just increase the sensor strength of all ships by 25% or whatever, and it still wouldn't fix the problem that ECM is an inherently uninteresting, uninteractive mechanic.

Eternal Noob
Posted - 2011.04.14 21:49:00 - [45]
 

Well, ECM is an inherently an interesting and interactive mechanic. It is interesting enough to players to max-skill all applicable skills, then buy an expensive cruiser, then get in a lot of small(er) fleets. It is interactive, in that when you jam someone, you are reaching out and touching someone just like any other hostile action.

But no, I do get the spirit of what you're saying. ECM can and does kill smaller warfare, or at the least, forces other smaller forces to either wield it, or fly enough anti-ECM boat ships.

About your thoughts to my suggesting a new skill, I disagree. Any high ranked skill is a time-choice. You see many vets that haven't trained Energy Management to 5. Why the hell not?!? Because they didn't want to invest the time.

^That said, a sensor boost skill would still make some reallyreally nice targeting ships a lil' OP.

Laeris Evanstar
Amarr
Petals of Derketo
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:01:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Laeris Evanstar on 14/04/2011 22:02:48
Let me guess:

You fit ships with gank, MWD, cap boosters, scram Web,and buffer mods. Gee, I wonder why you think ECMs are OP. It's like coming to a gunfight wearing watermelons on your head.

People like you are what turn PvP in other MMOs like WoW into rock-paper-scissors games. Mage beats tank, tank beats rogue, rogue beats mage.

ECM in this game is counterable by ECCMs and implants. To do so, you'll have to pry your nubbins' self off of battleclinic cookie-cutter fits in order to be somebody.

Now, I am a Curse pilot. I get this sort of rage too... but I also use ECCMs on my Curse. You want to kill a Falcon quick? You ECCM a Curse. <<< Is as close to invincible in small group PvP that you'll ever get FYI

Eternal Noob
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:03:00 - [47]
 

ECCM mods are not enough for too many ships. Implants... that's a pretty hardcore choice, like only for a jumpclone.

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:12:00 - [48]
 

You had one battle and now you can declare ECM as broken? Compared to the states its been in the past, with the multispec of DOOOOM and the 200km falcons, ECM is the former shadow of itself.

Have everybody in your gang fit ECCM. The odds of a whole gang being jammed up at the same time decreases significantly then.

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:14:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Laeris Evanstar
Let me guess:

You fit ships with gank, MWD, cap boosters, scram Web,and buffer mods.

You guess wrong. I've had ECCM + Backup Arrays and still been jammed out in a battlecruiser.

Originally by: Laeris Evanstar
People like you are what turn PvP in other MMOs like WoW into rock-paper-scissors games. Mage beats tank, tank beats rogue, rogue beats mage.

Stupid analogy. Not worth responding to...next.


Originally by: Laeris Evanstar
ECM in this game is counterable by ECCMs and implants. To do so, you'll have to pry your nubbins' self off of battleclinic cookie-cutter fits in order to be somebody.

ECCM reduces the chance, but perma-jamming is still possible. ECCM grants a percentage increase to sensor strength, so only battleships really gain a significant boost unless you throw several of them on a ship. Good job using the popular catch-all "herp derp cookie cutter derp" argument, though.

Originally by: Laeris Evanstar
Now, I am a Curse pilot. I get this sort of rage too... but I also use ECCMs on my Curse. You want to kill a Falcon quick? You ECCM a Curse. <<< Is as close to invincible in small group PvP that you'll ever get FYI

You're trying to argue that ECM isn't imbalanced, yet you fit your Curse with modules that reduce its tank or other attributes specifically to counteract the Falcon. Way to go.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:24:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Eternal Noob
Well, ECM is an inherently an interesting and interactive mechanic. It is interesting enough to players to max-skill all applicable skills, then buy an expensive cruiser, then get in a lot of small(er) fleets. It is interactive, in that when you jam someone, you are reaching out and touching someone just like any other hostile action.


The key part of the word 'interactive' is the prefix, 'inter'. Tracking disrupting is interactive because if I get TD'd, I have a number of options: I can get closer to my enemy to web him or to get into my now reduced range, I can get further away to make up for my reduced tracking, I can shoot a closer/slower target, etc. If someone's trying to jam me and they succeed, I have pretty much no options aside from trying to pull range. If someone's trying to jam me and they fail, I will probably never notice.

As for "it must be interesting because people train for it" - Jump Drive Operation V is not an interesting skill. I don't get excited about training it so that I can actually make my carrier useful (JDO V is a prereq for jump drive calibration, which is pretty mandatory). And yet these are very common skills to train because they enable things that are desirable. Something being worth training for is not indicative of that thing being interesting... noting that 'interesting' and 'desirable' are not equivalent.

Ouzolover
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:31:00 - [51]
 

Oh how many times i could just tank 3 or 4 ships for minutes and take them down one by one...but nooo,a falcon had to sit at 50km permajaming me...

ECCM...lol.Waste of slot.To many times permajammed with eccm on.

I say remove completely ECM from game.They can think something else less annoying.

ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:45:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: ValentinaDLM on 14/04/2011 23:47:19
ECM is not overpewerd for two reasons:

1. Caldari have no secondary Ewar, all they get is ECM, everyone else gets 2 even if damps and target painters seem almost rare in PVP these days. Yes, the Falcon/Rook gets uber bonues, but that curse can tracking disrupt and neut so it has a weaker effect, but more versatility.

2. Effective counters exist. I won't talk about ECCM since it was already covered, but falcons are very easy to kill ships that depend on range to stay alive, it is usually possible to use a covert ops ship to get a warpin right on top of them. in situations were pilots are smart and stay cloaked at things like gate camps you may have to bait the falcons into revealing their locations. (BTW have your covops/bomber fit a damp, in the time it takes him to lock to jam you your group should be onto of him)

The tactics to get warpins on falcons are not the easiest in the world, but any competent gang shouldn't have a problem and certainly shouldn't be running when they have the numbers advantage (as per the OPs claim).

The only time falcons become very hard to deal with is when they make up a large portion of the fleet or you end up landing right on top of a camp with a bunch of them at range from the gate and heavy hitters up close, and in that situation someone did not scout properly at all.

TL;DR
If ECM was really this good gangs would just be made up of ECM ships and Gallente Command ship pilots would actually be in demand. It is very powerful in things like the alliance tournament due to things like warpins being negated. Fit ECCM, Scout and choose battles.

P.S. in all fairness, I too have a Caldari Ewar alt ;)


Proxyyyy
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:52:00 - [53]
 

NO! Im not going to even read this sh!t. Screwing around with half of the most useful Caldari ships. Not even! NO! When CCP boost Cal ships, then you can do whatever the f0ck you want with ECM. No cal nerf, until overpowered cal boost!

Nerf ECM DRONES THOUGH! That sh!t is just re****ulous...

Ouzolover
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:58:00 - [54]
 

Who cares if it is OP or un/balanced?It is ANNOYING.

That bastard has webs on me?I will primary him so i can save my ass.With jam you just wait to explode while everyone spank you and you are just watching.

I really dont care losing my ship.I play the game to have fun.And not being able to shoot back is not fun in my book.

Rastigan
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.15 00:30:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: ValentinaDLM
Edited by: ValentinaDLM on 14/04/2011 23:47:19
ECM is not overpewerd for two reasons:

1. Caldari have hybrid weapons



Laeris Evanstar
Amarr
Petals of Derketo
Posted - 2011.04.15 01:43:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Laeris Evanstar on 15/04/2011 01:54:05
Originally by: Laeris Evanstar
Now, I am a Curse pilot. I get this sort of rage too... but I also use ECCMs on my Curse. You want to kill a Falcon quick? You ECCM a Curse. <<< Is as close to invincible in small group PvP that you'll ever get FYI


Originally by: Lara Dontral
You're trying to argue that ECM isn't imbalanced, yet you fit your Curse with modules that reduce its tank or other attributes specifically to counteract the Falcon. Way to go.


Unlike you, I see the ECCM as part of my tank. I will never leave a station without one on. Without it, you're just leaving yourself wide open to becoming a spectator.

And, you haven't seen rage until you've used ECMs on your Dominix :)

Led Zeppelin420
Posted - 2011.04.15 02:01:00 - [57]
 

IMO the problem isnt with the falcon its that everyone flies basically the same thing for pvp. To who ever the orignal poster was i bet if your group was in 3 drakes or better yet myrms or brutixs you would of spanked them. Everyone flies min or amarr for pvp and everybody knows it. That falcon pilot got lucky and you guys were in 3 canes and he probablly had 3 min racials on. I usually take 3 min, 2 amarr, and 2 caldari on my falcons. You need variety if you want to succeed. Sometimes I do 4 2 1 cuz from what i see eveybody flies min mostly for pvp and amarr second.

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.15 03:44:00 - [58]
 

(1) ECM will not shut down a drone boat with a competent controller. If you don't have "agressive" and "focus fire" toggles keybound, then the reason you're dying is because you suck, not because your opponent is overpowered.

(2) On that note, the 'cane has space and bandwidth for 3 medium ECM drones. Since it's a turret-based ship with no bonuses in pvp, that's what you should be packing (or 6 small ECM drones). By my calculations, in a group of 5 hurricanes you should have had no issues breaking up the two-man synergy pair by jamming them back with drones set on aggressive.

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.04.15 03:47:00 - [59]
 

ECM is over powered, you could tell in the last Alliance tournament. Rolling Eyes


Besides nerfing ECM would remove what is left of usable caldari ships.

Vorekk
LowBall Heavy Industries
Cloning Gone Wrong
Posted - 2011.04.15 07:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Lara Dontral
Zero-Duration Jams
Rather than jammers locking you out of targeting for a specific duration, they instead just break all current target locks like the ECM Burst and Lockbreaker bombs currently do. Jamming skills would be adjusted to reduce the cycle duration of ECM modules so that you could break locks more frequently with higher skills.



This. ECM should simply unlock all your targets. The arbitrary 20 second jam is ridiculous.


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