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Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 11:20:00 - [1]
 

This isn't just a rant, but rather a look at the fact that from a balanced mechanic point of view, ECM still needs a lot of work. This isn't a rant specifically against the Falcon, but against the mechanics of ECM themselves.

Let's look at the facts:

People train alts specifically to fly ECM boats. Even with the nerfs to the Falcon, people still have alts dedicated to flying this ship, and people will avoid confrontations with superior numbers because of this ship. Two battlecruisers backed up by an ECM boat can take out as many as five battlecruisers on the opposing side. I've seen smaller gangs refuse to fight an engagement when a Falcon/Scorpion was involved, and with good reason.

A Falcon or Scorpion can completely turn the tide of battle. I have seen a group of three Hurricanes lose to ONE fail-fit Drake (two points and two webs). Yeah, the Drake's tank sucked, but so what? All three Canes were perma-jammed. Fortunately, two were still able to escape...but the fact remains that a single ship should not be able to take three other ships out of the fight completely like that. The fact that it was a Falcon is only marginally relevant since a Scorpion could have done the same thing.

Specific ships aside, the entire mechanic for ECM is broken. There is no other type of electronic warfare in the game that can completely eliminate a ship's ability to do anything worthwhile (please don't mention FoF missiles. If you do, then you clearly don't know how fail they are in PvP). ECM is the only type of electronic warfare where people have to fit modules SPECIFICALLY geared towards negating it. This, combined with the fact that people make ECM alts specifically, should make it clear how unbalanced it is.

More than just a rant, I can make several suggestions towards fixing ECM. Note that I'm only suggesting that ONE of these solutions go in, not all of them!:

Diminishing Returns
Each successful jam increases that ship's resistance to subsequent jam cycles. After several jams, said ship would be completely immune to ECM for a fixed amount of time (say, one minute). ECM would still be valued, but the idea of permanently jamming someone while you take twenty minutes to blow their ship up would be gone, and you wouldn't be able to permanently take a ship out of the fight. It would require very tactical decisions by the ECM pilot, not just "target and jam all of the DPS ships!".

Multiple Target Penalties
Attempting to jam more than one target incurs heavy penalties to your jamming chance. It might be possible to take one ship out of a fight, maybe even two if they're small or have low sensor strength, but beyond that the chances drop tremendously.

Zero-Duration Jams
Rather than jammers locking you out of targeting for a specific duration, they instead just break all current target locks like the ECM Burst and Lockbreaker bombs currently do. Jamming skills would be adjusted to reduce the cycle duration of ECM modules so that you could break locks more frequently with higher skills.

Duration Reducing ECCM
Rather than having ECCM and Backup Arrays boost sensor strength, have them reduce the duration that the target is jammed for, at least giving the jammed ship opportunities to establish a lock between jam cycles.

I guess the biggest issue for me is how much power ECM has. If you hear about a gang with a Curse or a Lechisis or a Rapier, then you're a little concerned. If you hear about a gang with a Falcon or a Scorpion, however, the whole concept of the fight changes. ECM is in a league of its own, and anyone that doesn't see that it's imbalanced is blind. One ship should not be able to negate multiple ships on the other side, and when I say negate, I mean completely negate. Reducing effectiveness is one thing, but to completely eliminate them from the fight entirely is another matter.


Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.04.14 11:49:00 - [2]
 

L2blob. harder
L2FitECCM.

As long as your fleet has more then 500 ships, the enemy falcons will be rendered useless. Falcon is thrash against fleets this size.

Since 99.99% pvp is of this sort, hence falcon is underpowered. Falcon ECM should be special AOE ECM of 50km to be viable (so that a falcon can jam whole blobs)

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.04.14 12:03:00 - [3]
 

What about simply a skill that increases sensor strength?

There's already a skill that increases ECM strength, although I've forgotten what it is called, but while almost every stat in EVE has at least one skill that can increase it, sensor strength does not.

+7.5% sensor strength per level would make a diference. Maybe +10%/lvl.

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 12:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Salpad
What about simply a skill that increases sensor strength?

There's already a skill that increases ECM strength, although I've forgotten what it is called, but while almost every stat in EVE has at least one skill that can increase it, sensor strength does not.

+7.5% sensor strength per level would make a diference. Maybe +10%/lvl.



That might not be bad for larger ships. A 50% boost to sensor strength would give +8 to a Hurricane, which would be 24 total. Unfortunately, that's still somewhat easy for a Falcon or Scorpion to perma-jam, though if you stacked that with an ECCM module, that might make it much more difficult.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2011.04.14 12:39:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lara Dontral
A Falcon or Scorpion can completely turn the tide of battle. I have seen a group of three Hurricanes lose to ONE fail-fit Drake (two points and two webs). Yeah, the Drake's tank sucked, but so what? All three Canes were perma-jammed. Fortunately, two were still able to escape...but the fact remains that a single ship should not be able to take three other ships out of the fight completely like that.

So three ships which were cookie cutter fit for tank & gank took on two ships with a combined value and training requirement of approximately twice theirs which were fit specifically to operate as a pair against multiple opponents (dual tackle...etc, Falcon providing tank for Drake) and didn't win...

Working as intended TBH...

Would you be complaining had the Drake been accompanied by a Scimitar?

What you should be ranting about is that the Drake was not accompanied by an Arazu... That no such pilot would choose to be accompanied by an Arazu.

While the impotence of a jammed ship is frustrating it is the ineffectiveness of other forms of EWar which is more at fault. Don't Nerf ECM or ECM boats, bring the others in line with them (Sensor Damp bonuses appropriate to the nerf on specialised ships, expanding Sig Dist Amps to effect all EWar, Tracking disruptors able to take on missile ships...etc.

Sutskop
PILSGESCHWADER
Monkey Circus
Posted - 2011.04.14 12:53:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Lara Dontral
I have seen a group of three Hurricanes lose to ONE fail-fit Drake (two points and two webs).


No, three battlecruisers lost to one battlecruiser AND a t2 recon ship. I would consider this pretty fair. Plus if the Falcon is fit to permajam three battlecrusiers he is taking risks for fitting almost no tank, so one missed cycle means a Recon lossmail, which costs more than all Hurricanes combined.

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:02:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Lara Dontral on 14/04/2011 13:03:22
Originally by: Jacob Holland
So three ships which were cookie cutter fit for tank & gank took on two ships with a combined value and training requirement of approximately twice theirs which were fit specifically to operate as a pair against multiple opponents (dual tackle...etc, Falcon providing tank for Drake) and didn't win...


First, you're assuming you know the Cane fits. Second, combining the value and training requirement is very poor logic. By that logic, a single Jaguar should be able to take on a dozen T1 cruisers and come out on top, when in reality one or two would be sufficient in most cases.

Originally by: Jacob Holland
Would you be complaining had the Drake been accompanied by a Scimitar?


No, because a single logistics ship can be attacked and killed. A logistics ship cannot completely shut down three ships. Two scimitars? That would be impossible for three Canes to take out (assuming they're cap balancing and spider tanking), but a single Scimitar would still be at risk for being chased down and destroyed. A Falcon that shows up and perma-jams three other ships? Well, they can't shoot the Falcon if they can't target it.

Originally by: Jacob Holland
What you should be ranting about is that the Drake was not accompanied by an Arazu... That no such pilot would choose to be accompanied by an Arazu.


Again, the Arazu cannot completely prevent the Hurricanes from firing on the Drake. It cannot completely take the Hurricanes out of the fight for its entirety. In fact, all it can do is keep them pointed. That alone is a tactical advantage but does not prevent them from firing or sending drones. I'm not even sure why you'd mention this. It's irrelevant to the discussion...


Originally by: Jacob Holland
While the impotence of a jammed ship is frustrating it is the ineffectiveness of other forms of EWar which is more at fault.

ECM at its core is broken. Making other forms of EWar more effective doesn't change the fact that an ECM boat can completely negate several other ships.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:05:00 - [8]
 

Most of the Failcon alts have been trained to sit in T3 boosters now which is infinitely worse as you often don't even know they are there and yet they can have a huge impact.

The brokenness ECM is due to the effect, 'stunlock' is just a crappy concept no matter what game its used in.
For it to be even remotely acceptable ECCM should guarantee the user remain unjammed

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:10:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 14/04/2011 13:22:32
I think the jamming formula right now is too "binary." If jam strength exceeds sensor strength, there's nothing the targeted ship can do, because there's no longer any randomness in the equation.

Right now, jam strength tends to be lower than sensor strength, but suppose for a moment, that ECM and ECCM were re-balanced so that they were approximately equal (with specialized T2 hulls being appropriately stronger). Then take a look at this formula.

chanceToJam = 0.5 ^ (sensorStrength / jamStrength).

Does it look familiar? It should -- it's a simplified version of the turret tracking formula, a well-tested ad well-behaving element of Eve for many years.

If SS and JS are equal, you get a 50% chance to Jam. If JS exceeds SS by 50%, it's 63%. If it's double? 75%. Similarly, a 50% greater SS gives a 35% chance to Jam. Double gives 25%.

I'm imagining a typical T1 jammer having a strength of about 5, with a meta-4 or T2 jammer having about 9. Signal distortion amplifiers would increase this by about 25%, while midslot-ECCM would increase sensor strength by about 50%.

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:11:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Most of the Failcon alts have been trained to sit in T3 boosters now which is infinitely worse as you often don't even know they are there and yet they can have a huge impact.

The brokenness ECM is due to the effect, 'stunlock' is just a crappy concept no matter what game its used in.
For it to be even remotely acceptable ECCM should guarantee the user remain unjammed



Well, I still think ECM should do something, I just think it's too powerful when one ship can lock several down.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:26:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 14/04/2011 13:27:01
ECM by itself isn't broken.
ECM, as a concept, is the problem.

work that out and I can agree with you, because otherwise, they do exactly what they are designed for, which is being force multipliers.

Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:27:00 - [12]
 

All of you pansies that whine about ECM just make yourselves look pathetic. ECM is a tricky f*cking beast to fly, and if you are complaining about it then you haven't flown an ECM ship.

ECCM, works great at countering. Implants, also works great at countering.

ECM boats are always paper thin (even if they fit a decent tank it still sucks). This means if you miss a single cycle and you aren't piloting you ship perfect you will probably die in a fire. Even if you get off jams then there are still the drones. There are ways to counter this, but its not easy and it takes some thought when flying your boat.

The thing that really 'grinds my gears' about all of the whining in regards to this is only because people want to fly their cookie cutter ships without having to account for this type of ecm. Everyone says that its no fun fighting against because you can't shoot back, but this is utter nonsense, and like someone pointed out with the scimi, no other EWAR or gang support gets this kind of flak.

RR, logi, tracking disrupts, neuts, webs...all of this has a particularly good effect on certain kind of ships. Nuets against a drake, who cares. Neuts against a cyclone...NO FAIR, HOW CAN I FIGHT THIS->RAGE!!

Learn to play the game, learn how to fight against something if you are hitting a wall.

As for your suggestions:

Diminishing Returns: If you get dimishing returns then ECM should be stronger at the get go (atm it is very hard to jam caldari). Seems like a useless upgrade though.

Multiple Target Penalties: It already exists, its called lack of tank.

Zero-Duration Jams: This idea is asinine. This means that any frigate could kill a falcon. With max skills cycle time is 15s, that means that a rifter would always kill a falcon (does this make sense to you?).

Duration Reducing ECCM: You would have to rework the programming on all EWAR to do this. The idea is ok, but lets be real. If you aren't fitting ECCM for pvp right now (which cuts your chance to be jammed by AT LEAST 50% in most cases) what makes you think you are going to fit this in pvp?

/wall of text over

Zakatius
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:33:00 - [13]
 

ECM ships generally have weak tanks, fight them with stuff that doesn't need to target or only needs to target briefly. Drones work wonders and I would say FoF missiles but..

FoF missiles lawl.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:35:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 14/04/2011 13:35:19
Let's look at some typical scenarios under the new jamming mechanic:

Griffin (caldari frigate 4) against Rifter:
Griffin uses T2 ECM, getting a 60% bonus to its jamming strength: 14.4. It also fits a signal distortion amplifier, bringing it to 17.28.

Rifters have an inherently weak sensor strength, so it's appropriate that this results in a 26.4% chance to resist the jam. If the rifter had used a low-grade ECCM set, this would have improved to a 43% jam resistance.

Let's scale it up.
A scorpion (Caldari Battleship 4) attacks an apocalypse:
Again, T2 ECM are used, but this time, there's also two signal distortion amplifiers in play.
13.7% jam strength against 17 sensor strength. 42.3% jam chance. If the scorpion applies two of its jammers, this is a 2/3 chance of successfully jamming the target.

Seems reasonable. Battleships have a stronger sensor strength, but the scorpion has more jammers to compensate.

And at the top tier, Falcon (Recon 4) vs. Hurricane:
Worst possible situation. Weak sensor strength against very strong jamming. 30% bonus per level. 2 signal distortion amplifiers. 19.8 jam strength against 16.
Results in a 57.1% chance to jam. With two jammers, that's an 81.6% jam chance.

Don't these numbers seem more reasonable?

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:44:00 - [15]
 

To be fair, there is also need of the pilot flying the ECM boat to predict which flavour of ECM modules he should fit.

Unless he goes for omnijam modules but from what I've heard that's not good.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:46:00 - [16]
 

what a dumb topic, btw points are way more op than ecms ,here is why
you are a lone frig/cruiser vanna go to your buddies ,but evil matars set up a camp between you,
case 1: enemy has ecm no points: you jump in and warp away as they had no means to keep you there while they kill you--> ecm here was useless

case 2: enemy has no ecm but has points: you are scrambled and killed on sight , you managed to lock one or 2 enemies for those little seconds while you were alive , but that one shot you made havent even bend their shield

so nerf those stupid warp disruptors asap those kills pvp

same with neutralizers :
you are on your daily farming with your uber raven, but suddenly 3 frigs scramblers you
case 1: npc-s jamms you , your already sent out drones slowly get rid of those frigs + your fofs helps them out
but you have plenty of time as your shields can easily hold out the dmg
case 2: npc-s neut you your cap is instantly 0 your invu fields turns of and your shield are depleted by the time your drones kills the first jammer frig, maybe they can chow throu the 2nd but your ship is already a burning pile of trash

sollutions:
if you play as matar there is a 5% with each volley that your guns jamms and then an additional 1% when it jamms the whole ammo rack blows up with the half of your op ship

if you play as amarr , the stupid matar slaves forgot to instal the reactor wall correctly, after half an our your capsule becomes an egg frier ,even if you can activate your remote clone the doctors decided that you should be put down due to irreversible brain dmg suffered in your capsule and clones you into your baby self body your father made 30+ years ago

or just stfu

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:00:00 - [17]
 

I agree with the OP, especially when you compare it with alternative Ewar that does essentially the same thing but crappier in every way (hi damps!). Personally I'd slap a minimum range onto ECM, so a viable counter would be to close distance

Also lol @ above post, you know you've hit a nerve when pro-ecm posters can't even type a logical post through their rage

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:06:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen
I agree with the OP, especially when you compare it with alternative Ewar that does essentially the same thing but crappier in every way (hi damps!). Personally I'd slap a minimum range onto ECM, so a viable counter would be to close distance


boost the other ewar then.
it still doesnt' stop ECM being better. nerfing it would make it useless and you can't boost it further (falcon days).

problem with ECM is not how it works ingame. it works perfectly well and in the way that was designed, which is being force multiplier.

you want to "fix" ECM you need to pretty much rework the entire concept of ECM in this game.

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:09:00 - [19]
 

Falcons and Rooks are only tide turners in small scale, cheap skirmishes. If you 3 were in battleships or recons you would have curb stomped that setup.

Honestly it sounds like you were butt hurt because you had a terrible fleet setup (3 canes?) If you are going to go 3 canes go 3 nano canes and then you would have just been able to disengage anyway. Or *spoiler alert* bring your own ROOK/Falcon/ECCMed ship

I hate these complaints. Its not like they are some magical people who get these unique abilities to fly caldari recons. "They had neutral RR, WhAAAAAAAAA" "They used ECM, WHAAAaaaaa" , They have more friends than us and blobbed us, WHaaaaaaa" We are all playing the same game, with the same rules, play it to or go back to hello kitty island adventure.

Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:14:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Noisrevbus on 14/04/2011 14:28:01

The problem isn't that they (CCP) didn't do enough, the problem is that they did the wrong thing.

I said it back then, during the "because of Falcon" discussions, and i can smirkly conclude that those predictions turned out quite right.

ECM back in the day had two major issues, 1) in solo- or very small PvP, falcon-alts and 2) blanket ECM when you 'blob' someone, where you can safely lock-out a majority of the opposing gang, without leaving comparable holes in other aspects of your gang (eg., when they had 10, and you had 10 +10 Falcons). ECM was not an issue in larger fleets or in somewhat balanced gangs and engagements. Instead, in those situations, it added dimension. The knowledge that a hostile gang might have some extreme LR ECM, meant that ships with extreme LR themselves had a purpose. Few ships were hit as hard by the Falcon nerf as the Cerberus, for example.

Anyhow, they went the direction of nerfing survivability. They nerfed the defensive capability instead of the offensive capability. Perhaps under the notion that forcing ECM ships (notably Falcons) to operate in the damage range of most ships would force them to fit tanks, which would lead to fitting less ECM mods and possibly less ECM strength. The problem with their approach is twofold: they left ECM in a state where it's still powerful if/when you dedicate yourself to it; and you essentially need at least a 4-slot ECM setup (given how racials are not only strength, but also range and cap) with corresponding support mods and rigs we're looking at an 8-slot setup. That means that even if you give up some potential EW power for a basic buffer, your buffer will never be decent enough because you're hitting critical breakpoints for when bringing an ECM ship is worth it within a balanced gang.

Whereas if you blob, solo with alts (have ECM in 2v2) or take part in the new era cloaky/drop style gangs - your tank or range is not as important.

In essence, the changes didn't have much impact where ECM was powerful but had stinging effect where ECM was quite balanced, among the dedicated pilots who flew ECM on their mains, as their preferred choice in a somewhat balanced gang or fleet. It also made ECM ships very defensive minded, where when used, people tend to prefer them when someone comes to you, and you can refit a directed rack of racials to meet the hostile gang comp. That way ECM is common not only in blobs, but predominantly in defensive blobs, which makes it even more ennerving for the small/solo roamers that tend to complain about ECM. Since then, Logistics have pretty much taken over as the overstackable support choice, which is amusing given how Recons (or EW) is a direct counter to that.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
...

That is a very eloquent way of describing the problem, albeit a bit from the side.
Only way to defeat ECM users is to either commit overkill (BS vs lol-Drake in this case) or bringing your own gaywar.

Not a hell of a lot of variation left when the same solution(s) is the only one applicable in all scenarios.

Give me ECCM that actually makes a difference and I'll be happy to sacrifice slots for it .. until then I'd rather not engage heavy ECM users at all.

Kira Pasisson
M'8'S
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:28:00 - [22]
 

will the ecm whine ever stop?
was the falcon nerfed considerably in the past especially concerning the caldari-race-bonus called range? yes
is the falcon, a paper ship, now fighting on ranges where 50% of all ships can shoot at it nearly immediately? yes
did the range nerf made other caldari ships as viable counters against the falcon more useless in pvp shifting the balance quite alot? yes (cerb, cruise raven...)
if u want to avoid being scrammed, dont u have to fit warp core stabs which dont only cost a slot but also reduce ur ships strength? yes u have, and btw...scramming is not chance-based
if u want to establish a gate camp, dont u need webbers for it urgently? yes u do
if u want to break logi chains or strong tanks, isnt the neutralizer a vey nice thing in most cases? yes
if u have missile boats in ur fleet, isnt the target painter important? yes
if u have to fight turret-fleets, arent tracking disruptors a nice thing to have? yes

do u now realize that ALL ewar with the exception of dampeners (which are not at the same lvl as the rest) does have a vital role?
do u now realize that u need countermessures against all kinds of ewar? cap boosters vs. neuts, ab vs. scrams, wcs vs. warp disruptors, speed mods vs. webs, tracking computers vs. tracking disruptors, sensor boosters vs. dampeners....
do u realize that the counter measure against dps is called tank?

in the end if u want to be prepared against ingame tactics and weapons u need counter measures...that is the game, they exist against jamming...use them or continue whining that ur 30mio base prize hurricane is jammed by a 130mio base prize ship which is dead when it misses one cycle

if u want to be good u need a combo of all or most ewar types anyway...as it was mentioned before, try to jamm sb who just warps away....

cheers
kira

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:31:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Lara Dontral on 14/04/2011 14:31:47
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
Honestly it sounds like you were butt hurt because you had a terrible fleet setup (3 canes?) If you are going to go 3 canes go 3 nano canes and then you would have just been able to disengage anyway. Or *spoiler alert* bring your own ROOK/Falcon/ECCMed ship

I'm not privy to the exact setups for the Canes save that they were shield tanked. That being said, even a nano cane can't escape a Drake when it's dual webbed and scrambled. Like I said, all but one (the one the Drake chose to primary) got away.

Originally by: NoLimit Soldier
I hate these complaints. Its not like they are some magical people who get these unique abilities to fly caldari recons. "They had neutral RR, WhAAAAAAAAA" "They used ECM, WHAAAaaaaa" , They have more friends than us and blobbed us, WHaaaaaaa" We are all playing the same game, with the same rules, play it to or go back to hello kitty island adventure.


I never complained about neutral RR or superior numbers. Feel free to try and lump a valid complaint in with a bunch of other garbage if you think it proves your point.

I wasn't actually part of the Hurricane fleet, but I knew those involved. Also, saying "Bring your own ECM boat" sort of proves my argument. Also, the ECCM argument is still a joke. Most ships have to gimp their combat capabilities in order to use ECCM or Backups, and even then ECM boats can still counter virtually every other ship in the game 2-1. Any argument that focuses on "If you don't like fighting ECM boats, use your own." is fundamentally flawed. It in fact provides support that something is imbalanced if the strongest counter to it is to use it yourself or gimp your ship by fitting specifically against it. You don't see people fitting against sensor damps, neutraliziers, tracking disruptors, or points (unless that's ALL they're doing), and yet you argue that you need to A) Bring ECM yourself or B) Fit ECCM, and try to use that to validate an argument that the ECM mechanic isn't in need of help.

Boosting other EWar isn't the answer either. What ECM currently does is bogus, and it is bogus from an absolute perspective, not a relative one. Boosting other EWar won't stop ECM from doing what it currently does.

Edit: Apparently I don't know how to spell 'privy'.

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:44:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
will the ecm whine ever stop?

When they fix it.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
was the falcon nerfed considerably in the past especially concerning the caldari-race-bonus called range? yes

And yet it still makes or breaks smaller engagements. This isn't an argument about the Falcon specifically, however...

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
is the falcon, a paper ship, now fighting on ranges where 50% of all ships can shoot at it nearly immediately? yes

Except you can't shoot at it when you're jammed, so you need to bring extra friends or gimp your fit to deal with one 'paper thin' ship.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
did the range nerf made other caldari ships as viable counters against the falcon more useless in pvp shifting the balance quite alot? yes (cerb, cruise raven...)

Which now means you have to bring specific ships to a fight with the sole intention of using them to counter Falcons.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
if u want to avoid being scrammed, dont u have to fit warp core stabs which dont only cost a slot but also reduce ur ships strength? yes u have, and btw...scramming is not chance-based

What on Earth does that have to do with being unable to target anything and being completely removed from the fight?

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
if u want to establish a gate camp, dont u need webbers for it urgently? yes u do

And...? That still has nothing to do with ECM...

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
if u want to break logi chains or strong tanks, isnt the neutralizer a vey nice thing in most cases? yes

Unless they're cap balancing, in which case one Curse loaded to the teeth with neutralizers and full skills still can't cap out a single logi that's being balanced by another.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
if u have missile boats in ur fleet, isnt the target painter important? yes

Arguably, though I've seen plenty of kills with missile boats where no target painter was involved. It helps, but is not necessary. Also, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ECM!

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
if u have to fight turret-fleets, arent tracking disruptors a nice thing to have? yes

And disrupted tracking can be countered by altering transversal. ECM can be countered by...oh, wait...once you're jammed you sit there for 20 seconds.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
do u now realize that ALL ewar with the exception of dampeners (which are not at the same lvl as the rest) does have a vital role?

Are you aware that ECM is the only Ewar that people A) have to fit against specifically and B) completely stops targeted ships from fighting back?

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
do u now realize that u need countermessures against all kinds of ewar? cap boosters vs. neuts, ab vs. scrams, wcs vs. warp disruptors, speed mods vs. webs, tracking computers vs. tracking disruptors, sensor boosters vs. dampeners....

Horrible, horrible examples. All other ewar can be compensated by pilot skill. ECM cannot. You have to either fit against it or bring your own ECM.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
do u realize that the counter measure against dps is called tank?

That's....a really stupid comparison.

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
in the end if u want to be prepared against ingame tactics and weapons u need counter measures...that is the game, they exist against jamming...use them or continue whining that ur 30mio base prize hurricane is jammed by a 130mio base prize ship which is dead when it misses one cycle

If that Falcon decides to focus on you, ECCM doesn't matter. A Falcon can perma-jam an ECCM fitted Cane quite easily. Also, despite being paper thin, you can't kill a Falcon (much less a Scorpion) in the time during one jam cycle unless the Falcon is stupid enough to jam at close range.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.14 15:22:00 - [25]
 

bruhuhu ecm is so op bruhuhua ,thats all in your post Lara noob

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.04.14 17:15:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 14/04/2011 17:16:53
If a ship is going to be a one trick pony, it should be really good at that trick or it's not worth flying.

I love how you also neatly ignore just how devastating other recons/ewar can be. Take the curse for example: that can slice the range or tracking of any turret ship by half (yes, this can easily mean the difference between hitting all the time and hitting none of it) and shutting down anything using cap (tank, RR, EWAR, some weapons, etc. etc. etc.)
It also brings some DPS or added drone utility to the field

The catch?

None of this is chance based. If you click the mod when in range, it will work. and yes it can be applied to multiple targets.
Why are you not crying your eyes out about this exactly?

Caldari EWAR ships are good for exactly one thing: breaking enemy target locks. The only one with remotely good dps or other utility is the Rook, and it has to pick between jamming capability and dps.
If you're nerfing ECM, buff ECM ships to give them additional utility and/or dps to stop that entire ship line becoming nothing but an obscure branch of chance based crap that other recons/ewar can do better.

Oh and I love this bit:

Quote:
A Falcon or Scorpion can completely turn the tide of battle.


You mean, a smaller gang with a more strategic setup can beat a blob of tank and gank blunt instruments?
OMG HORRIBLE GAME DESIGN FIX THIS AT ONCE I WANT TO BE ABLE TO KILL ANYTHING BY BRINGING 20 HURRICANES.

Idiot.


Edit: A note on the whole one trick pony concept - just look at the Retribution.
This ship is a one trick pony - it has no utility, no tackle, it can only deal damage.
The problem is other frigates that also have utility and tackle have the same or better DPS.

Don't turn the entire EWAR line into Retributions.

Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 17:27:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Terianna Eri on 14/04/2011 17:31:52
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
If a ship is going to be a one trick pony, it should be really good at that trick or it's not worth flying.

That's actually the crux of the problem... The effect of ECM is so much stronger than the affect of every single other kind of EWAR in the game that to balance it, it has to be chance-based, and the ships that use it have to be utterly worthless for everything else.

Really they need to rework the ECM mechanic entirely. It's a completely non-interactive mechanic; once you're jammed there's almost nothing you can do to mitigate the effects of jamming except get out of range or put drones on them (which is usually mutually exclusive as ECM range > drone control range for most ships).

It's simple and boring.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.14 17:31:00 - [28]
 

main problem is the hurricane, has preety lol sensor can get over 98% jam with 2 jammers

Lara Dontral
Posted - 2011.04.14 17:59:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
I love how you also neatly ignore just how devastating other recons/ewar can be. Take the curse for example: that can slice the range or tracking of any turret ship by half (yes, this can easily mean the difference between hitting all the time and hitting none of it) and shutting down anything using cap (tank, RR, EWAR, some weapons, etc. etc. etc.)
It also brings some DPS or added drone utility to the field


I'm not ignoring that at all. However, a Curse's abilities are selective. The neuts are only effective at shutting down cap-dependant modules. Projectile turrets, drone boats and missile platforms are still fully capable of putting out their damage from the neuts, and the tracking disruption only affects the first in that list. ECM, on the other hand, shuts down everything, including drone boats if you jam them before they can issue the attack command. Unless you're carrying FoF missiles, you cannot do anything to anyone.


Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
None of this is chance based. If you click the mod when in range, it will work. and yes it can be applied to multiple targets.
Why are you not crying your eyes out about this exactly?


Because if I actually have to illustrate the difference between being neutralized, sensor-damped, or tracking disrupted and being target jammed, then you're likely beyond hope as it is.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Caldari EWAR ships are good for exactly one thing: breaking enemy target locks. The only one with remotely good dps or other utility is the Rook, and it has to pick between jamming capability and dps.
If you're nerfing ECM, buff ECM ships to give them additional utility and/or dps to stop that entire ship line becoming nothing but an obscure branch of chance based crap that other recons/ewar can do better.


I have no problem with this. If you would actually read my complaint, I'm pointing out that there is a problem with the ECM mechanic itself, not the ships that use it.

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Oh and I love this bit:

Quote:
A Falcon or Scorpion can completely turn the tide of battle.


You mean, a smaller gang with a more strategic setup can beat a blob of tank and gank blunt instruments?
OMG HORRIBLE GAME DESIGN FIX THIS AT ONCE I WANT TO BE ABLE TO KILL ANYTHING BY BRINGING 20 HURRICANES.

Idiot.


First of all, 20 Hurricanes would obliterate a Falcon/Drake combo, but that was obviously hyperbole.

Second, and I guess this point went over your head, the ECM MECHANIC is broken, not the ships themselves. When the best counter to ECM is "bring your own ECM", there's something seriously wrong with it.


Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edit: A note on the whole one trick pony concept - just look at the Retribution.
This ship is a one trick pony - it has no utility, no tackle, it can only deal damage.
The problem is other frigates that also have utility and tackle have the same or better DPS.


No, the Retribution is intended as a PvE frigate. That's why it sucks in PvP and why the Vengeance exists.

NoLimit Soldier
Posted - 2011.04.14 18:08:00 - [30]
 

Quote:
I'm not privy to the exact setups for the Canes save that they were shield tanked. That being said, even a nano cane can't escape a Drake when it's dual webbed and scrambled. Like I said, all but one (the one the Drake chose to primary) got away.

Find better pilots.

You want the proof that your argument is stupid and it was just bad fleet comp? Change out one of your canes for a curse and see how long the falcon stays on the field. It will only get ONE chance to not miss a jam.

My god, a recon (and not your "OMG ECM is OP" type) fixes your problem also.

Also I hate your whole "we have to gimp our ships for ECCM" , Really? they used half their standing fleet just to be able to Jam you and you aren't willing to give up 15% dps to not be perma-jammed?




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