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Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:41:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Trocent
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Trocent
I really wish these whiners were real programmers. They'd know how strange problems arise. Out of all the MMOs I played CCP still does a hell of a lot better than anyone else.

Also to all you whiners, remember that CCP could always make this a carebear game. That'd probably get a few million subscriptions and make a ton more money, but they don't. Feel grateful or leave.


Some of these people complaining are programmers. The same people who pointed out the problems before it went live. CCP just ignored them and shoved it out to the customers so they could say they Delivered.


Then I take it they've programmed a game as advanced as Eve and could single handedly fix the problems in eve. I doubt it. All these people do is whine. CCP released some forums, people exploided them and CCP took it down, would you rather them just keep the forums up?

Regardless of what the whiners say, CCP are doing a pretty good job even when problems arise. Suck it up people.


This was a forum issue, not an ingame issue.
As is many times pointed out: those two things are not done by the same people.

I would not have them keep the compromised forums running.
I want them to release software that has received at least a modicum of testing so that the users won't tear it appart in less than 24 hours.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:57:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Julyan Fox
Maybe if more ppl went to test it things would have been better too. Ppl tend to forget EVE isn't an 11 million subscriber mmo.


You can't transfer the developer's responsibility for delivering a quality product to the users by throwing your product out and telling users "Please test it".
You can ask your users to help but the responsibility stays with the one delivering the product.

And if you really want people to help with finding defects, do it in a way that actually works.
Give people an incentive to spend their time. Give them a reason to really try.
"You get better software" is not really an incentive at all (see above: that's already the developer's responsibility).

Open an empty instance of the new forums, tell people that its contents will be whiped after the "Hack me if you can" phase.
Hide a PLEX (eg in form of a unique code that can be used to get a PLEX in-game) in a forum area that should be inaccesible to players.
Offer a PLEX for the first post as CCP Explorer stating "WE WERE GANKED!", first locked thread, first banned user, first poll, first ...

All this half-assed "Here, you can test the new forums for a week" is only leading to half-assed results which will eventually lead to **** like falling back to your old forums.


Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:10:00 - [243]
 

Well done CCP...now, if you'd just listened to us, kept the old forums and not bother with any of that 'like' crap we wouldn't be in this position Crying or Very sadCrying or Very sadCrying or Very sad

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:20:00 - [244]
 

while your fixing them can you import these forums into the new ones.
mark the old posts as read only if nothing elseWink

and good luck

Dark Striped
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:27:00 - [245]
 

keep the new ones disabled, i like my eyes not bleeding when im trolling. plus they are just a pain to use.

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:35:00 - [246]
 

Yeah, remember when you guys had this brilliant idea "Hey! We're gonna make a clean break transition rather than gradual! We feel forcing people in to it will make life better!"? Remember when your users said "why don't you overlap the transition so things can go smoother, conversations can transition with less interruption, and more people will choose to use your new forums rather than feel forced into something they aren't excited about"? Remember when your users said "these new forums are not ready to go live"? Remember how you keep ignoring what your customers ask for and you end up looking like jackasses?

lisaaa
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:43:00 - [247]
 

Just let them die CCP. Let them disabled and forget about it, or just say they are scheduled to be fixed right after FW and Lag. :))

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:48:00 - [248]
 

As with all of EVE, the shenanigans surrounding the new forums are much more entertaining then the actual forums themselves.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:53:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 10/04/2011 08:53:07
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Just to keep you guys who weren't in the loop aware there will still be a security-related blog about the forum issues Monday or so. Now with BONUS CONTENT!

Sorry, but to me this (and the post after it) smells like CCP are pretending that the ONLY problems with the new forums were the security issues, and are deliberately ignoring all the other usability issues...
If this is the case, then you really, REALLY(!) should take a step back and think a bit about the image you present to your customers.

The new forums were horrible to read, wasted a shedload of bandwidth (especially on mobile devices which is what a lot of people use these days), lacked very basic functionality that the current forums have, and were horribly slow.

In short, they were, and ARE, not ready for live deployment!

As one previous poster in this thread said, compare it with the introduction of the new contracts search... That was also a complete new interface, and I don't think I've seen a single complaint over it.
Why? Because it replaced something BAD with something OK (still not 'good'). With the forums, you're replacing OK with BAD. No wonder people complain...

Dalmont Delantee
Gallente
Shiloh Technologies
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:01:00 - [250]
 

I feel sorry for skreegs, as the security guy he's getting the brunt of it, it could be that he was never passed the code to check or noone ever thought to ask the security guy about forum security, because its always been secure...

But now he's on it I'm glad :)


Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:09:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/04/2011 05:07:26
Originally by: Trocent
Then I take it they've programmed a game as advanced as Eve and could single handedly fix the problems in eve. I doubt it. All these people do is whine. CCP released some forums, people exploided them and CCP took it down, would you rather them just keep the forums up?

Regardless of what the whiners say, CCP are doing a pretty good job even when problems arise. Suck it up people.


For the most part, +1. There are a huge number of armchair developers playing Eve. But I must admit there are also a pretty good number of actually solid developers playing Eve. Apparently one of the bigger problems CCP has for attracting good talent is the fact that they're in Iceland. This comes with all the associated problems - from "its cold" to "its different than home". Being an expat isn't terribly easy.

-Liang

Ed: Formatting.
Paying decent salaries would help a bit, too. Wink

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:15:00 - [252]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 10/04/2011 09:20:53
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Paying decent salaries would help a bit, too. Wink

This is not a practice followed by gaming companies Laughing

It may also explain why so many games are released in very buggy states... The people they can hire at their pay levels are simply not up to the job of delivering quality software.

I've been in the software industry now for 18 years, and I see a clear correlation between pay and quality. The good people KNOW they're good, and they in general don't work for people who won't acknowledge that (ie. pay them what they're worth).

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:24:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 10/04/2011 08:53:07
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Just to keep you guys who weren't in the loop aware there will still be a security-related blog about the forum issues Monday or so. Now with BONUS CONTENT!

Sorry, but to me this (and the post after it) smells like CCP are pretending that the ONLY problems with the new forums were the security issues, and are deliberately ignoring all the other usability issues...
If this is the case, then you really, REALLY(!) should take a step back and think a bit about the image you present to your customers.

The new forums were horrible to read, wasted a shedload of bandwidth (especially on mobile devices which is what a lot of people use these days), lacked very basic functionality that the current forums have, and were horribly slow.

In short, they were, and ARE, not ready for live deployment!

As one previous poster in this thread said, compare it with the introduction of the new contracts search... That was also a complete new interface, and I don't think I've seen a single complaint over it.
Why? Because it replaced something BAD with something OK (still not 'good'). With the forums, you're replacing OK with BAD. No wonder people complain...


Also, for the record, I poked my head in to the forums for about 5 minutes, but readability and usability were so bad, I went away right away. Maybe the strategy is to make the forums a crappy product on purpose so people won't use them and new people investigating EVE won't be turned off by any dirty secrets. Gawd I hope not, because that's gonna shoot CCP in the foot right there. CCP, if you put up crappy forums that nobody wants to use, the legitimate non-complaining traffic will drop, meaning a higher proportion of complaints, meaning a worse impression to prospective subscribers. Pull the new forums as not-ready, polish them up to the level where it doesn't look like it's done by some 17 year old in his basement programming for his retired graphic designer uncle. Making the new forums good enough so people prefer them over these old ones and migrate over voluntarily would be good for the whole game (not to mention the bottom line.) With the amount of drama surrounding the development of EVE (that is dev created drama, not player created drama) I definitely do not, and will not recommend this game to my friends, even though I practically live in the game myself.

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:25:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
I see a clear correlation between pay and quality.



And in other news, the sky is blue and EVE lags

TigerXtrm
APEX ARDENT COALITION
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:28:00 - [255]
 

I liked the new forums, I don't know what everyone is complaining about when it comes to the layout or bleeding eyes. Do any of you people go to other websites than this one? This forum is stuck in the bloody 1980's... there is absolutely NO useability at all.

CCP I keep trying to defend your new forums because I like them but **** you're making it ****ing difficult here! TEST your ****ing **** before you throw it online! TEST IT!!!

Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:34:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: TigerXtrm
I liked the new forums, I don't know what everyone is complaining about when it comes to the layout or bleeding eyes. Do any of you people go to other websites than this one? This forum is stuck in the bloody 1980's... there is absolutely NO useability at all.

CCP I keep trying to defend your new forums because I like them but **** you're making it ****ing difficult here! TEST your ****ing **** before you throw it online! TEST IT!!!


This forum's layout is clean, the text is readable, and it has some basic but functional utility. The new forums lack most of that, but they add a Facebook-esque 'like' system.

Now, go out and ask the EVE playerbase which one they would prefer. I think we both know the answer. I mean, just because the layout and graphics aren't whizz-bang up to date, does that automatically invalidate them?

With that reasoning, you might as well say the wheel is old-fashioned as it was developed millennia ago.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:42:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: TigerXtrm
I liked the new forums, I don't know what everyone is complaining about when it comes to the layout or bleeding eyes. Do any of you people go to other websites than this one? This forum is stuck in the bloody 1980's... there is absolutely NO useability at all.

CCP I keep trying to defend your new forums because I like them but **** you're making it ****ing difficult here! TEST your ****ing **** before you throw it online! TEST IT!!!
the problem here is not a dislike for the new forums. it's a dislike on how they were pushed with several issues in usability and, more serious, security.

making the new forums work faster and better than the old ones isn't a very daunting task, considering how bad bad the old ones are.

they, however, managed to out-done themselves and released to public a forum that had space management problems, useless time wasters (in terms of loading times), search function still not working, img tags disabled, signatures broken, and readability problems due to some strange combination of fonts, rendering and background colours.

now, those issues, while a pain in the ass, didn't warrant a forum shutdown. while it was bad that they pushed it without fixing these issues that were pointed out in both times the forums went public testing, the fact was that they could be fixed "live" and we would be done with it.

what warranted the forum shutdown was when the (almost) glaring and nearly childish security bugs that started to creep out.

those were the 2x4's that broke the camel's back.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:52:00 - [258]
 

Originally by: TigerXtrm
I liked the new forums, I don't know what everyone is complaining about when it comes to the layout or bleeding eyes. Do any of you people go to other websites than this one? This forum is stuck in the bloody 1980's... there is absolutely NO useability at all.

CCP I keep trying to defend your new forums because I like them but **** you're making it ****ing difficult here! TEST your ****ing **** before you throw it online! TEST IT!!!

Fully agreed. They "test" it but apparently it's CCP's policy not to read any test feedback and do something with it, I've seen it happen far too often. Issues that are mentioned multiple times are systematically being ignored and CCP acts surprised if the same issue proves to be a showstopper.

It's beyond my comprehension.

Mystri
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:56:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 10/04/2011 03:10:15
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Trocent
I really wish these whiners were real programmers. They'd know how strange problems arise. Out of all the MMOs I played CCP still does a hell of a lot better than anyone else.

Also to all you whiners, remember that CCP could always make this a carebear game. That'd probably get a few million subscriptions and make a ton more money, but they don't. Feel grateful or leave.


Some of these people complaining are programmers. The same people who pointed out the problems before it went live. CCP just ignored them and shoved it out to the customers so they could say they Delivered.


If you have any evidence of this I'd welcome you to share it with me. [email protected]
I can save you the time, on this forum thread you have one IT systems developer who works for Kinder*Morgan Pipelines, two Web content developers from CITIgroup and a Network system specialist for The Clydesdale Bank PLC UK.

now how many of them actualy ARE in thoes feilds is a matter of speculation. after all you can say whatever you like in facebook.

Rolling EyesLaughing Highlighted the bit CCP Sreegs meant... Looks like he is trying to find out why this happened and if the team were informed of the problems before deployment; communication problems?

The developers of the new forum will be under a hell of a lot of pressure right now and rightly so. Their boss should be dragged across the coals for not having proper (complete) testing procedures. If he thinks that he doesn't have the necessary skills to scrutinise the security of finished software, then he needs to get someone on his team that can. But I bet for future deployments, security will be his number one priority (that's if he's not arrogant Very Happy).

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:11:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Mystri
Highlighted the bit CCP Sreegs meant... Looks like he is trying to find out why this happened and if the team were informed of the problems before deployment; communication problems?

The developers of the new forum will be under a hell of a lot of pressure right now and rightly so. Their boss should be dragged across the coals for not having proper (complete) testing procedures. If he thinks that he doesn't have the necessary skills to scrutinise the security of finished software, then he needs to get someone on his team that can. But I bet for future deployments, security will be his number one priority (that's if he's not arrogant Very Happy).

lol @ using "security" to describe any of CCP's new web stuff. spacebook = security hole. CCP Sreegs, please make the web guys pull spacebook down entirely until they can learn to respect user privacy. Seriously, the fact that the only reason the majority of the players log in to a piece of software is to attempt to preserve their privacy is a PROBLEM (not to mention that the test server spacebook has a tendency to reset privacy settings to "stark-ass naked" unexpectedly.) The CCP web guys are some of the most inept people in the field. Anyone remember the time all you had to do was type in someone's name into spacebook and it would share just about everything short of their login credentials?

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:12:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Better Than You
So basically what you are saying is if we used the new forums, our account details were exposed? Including credit card information?

Yeah ok. Between the anomaly nerf and CCP exposing everyone's account details including credit cards, I quit. This is just unacceptable. Great job CCP. I trusted you and this is how you treat your customers.

Time to spend my money on another game that doesn't expose my information.

not quite.

the security holes themselves didn't go past the forum cookies, that don't store any password information. eveGate and account management themselves were secure since the cookies didn't "transport" from one place to another. At most all you could do was impersonating people in the forums.

now, IF someone less scrupulous posted html code in the 6000-character limited post and/or the 500-character limited signature to inject malicious code or any kind of malware, now there's a good chance that you could get your own computer's security compromised.

so yes, the main security hole wasn't the cookies, but the fact that the forums didn't sanitize html code.



better safe than sorry tho, so I changed passwords.

Danastar
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:14:00 - [262]
 

Can't wait to see "Vote for the best game of the year - EVE" again....


Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:16:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Some of these people complaining are programmers. The same people who pointed out the problems before it went live. CCP just ignored them and shoved it out to the customers so they could say they Delivered.


Yes exactly what's the problem with CCP in general and why people often have the feeling that they're playing beta content all the time ^^

BackStreet Babe
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:21:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Titus Phook
Well if he passed the new forum as fit for use, and lets face it he's the security guy and it was a security issue, he's probably busy trying to get the egg off his face.


My job is response, not reviewing every single line of code that gets written.


dosnt look like anyone had the job of reviewing the code in the new forums. fail is fail is ccp

Y Berion
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:23:00 - [265]
 

Good news! Now please don't bring them back online, ever.

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:34:00 - [266]
 

Maybe CCP management should just cut their losses and admit EVE-Gate will not be the big social media thing that whoever thought of it predicted it would be. Except for a way to check EVE game content (mails) on your iPhone no one uses it and trying to move stuff that is actually used like forums to it has produced this spectacular fiasco.


Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:36:00 - [267]
 

Originally by: BackStreet Babe
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Titus Phook
Well if he passed the new forum as fit for use, and lets face it he's the security guy and it was a security issue, he's probably busy trying to get the egg off his face.


My job is response, not reviewing every single line of code that gets written.


dosnt look like anyone had the job of reviewing the code in the new forums. fail is fail is ccp


Looks like there isn't even someone to review the security concept.
"... and then the server uses the character ID provided by the client to add the posting ..." should make someone fall out of their chair even without looking at any code at all.

Same with "... if a thread is locked the client will not show buttons to "like" postings, that'll suffice".


People are really fast to argue on the code level ("I don't review code", "It's just x lines of code", ...) when most of the problems are really on the conceptual level.
IMO that suggest people are still struggling to get the code to do what they want and cannot even start to think about whether their concept makes sense (or not).

TamiyaCowboy
Caldari
KRAKEN FLEET
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:39:00 - [268]
 

Edited by: TamiyaCowboy on 10/04/2011 10:40:05
This added Forum/evegate thing does not affect me.

I DONT USE EVE GATE !!!

Never wanted it either !!

CCP NAVIGATOR can we just keep the old forums, like the old mission storylines ingame, very outdated but does the job ( nearly)

i am so glad i don't use that evegate stuffz Laughing

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:55:00 - [269]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 10/04/2011 10:56:16
Originally by: Bomberlocks
The problem is that an injected keylogger could conceivably get hold of your forum username and password. I am NOT sure that this would work (js posting to another domain), but IF it was, the obvious problem is that the username and password for the forums and account management are the same and that this could lead to theft of your account and abuse of your credit card in certain cases.

I think you should draw your own conclusions, but personally I prefer to be safe rather than sorry.
that's what I'm trying to say.

the cookie-derp thing, by itself, was not an issue that affected anything besides the forums, since the guy that did it, said that the cookies didn't store any password info. the HTML code security hole tho, that's what could make things go south very fast.

anyways password changes, better safe than sorry and all that.

here's an extra

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:59:00 - [270]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
The problem is that an injected keylogger could conceivably get hold of your forum username and password.


Not going to happen without the user downloading and installing the program, you canīt just inject a running keylogger using html. Unless the attack is exploiting over security hole in the browser, it would be much the same as linking url to malware on this forum.


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