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Burnharder
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:44:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Burnharder on 07/04/2011 12:44:49
In my view there's a fundamental problem with the market in Eve. Well when I say "a fundamental problem", I mean one of the fundamental problems apart from market bots, is... the market for second hand goods, which people generally want to get rid of on the cheap is to all intents and purposes competing directly with people who take time out to build brand new stuff. It's like Arthur Daley's used car lot is right next door to a Lexus factory, and he's selling his knocked off, 20 year old crap for the same price as next door, because it's atom for atom exactly the same as the cars they're making next door. It doesn't make any sense.

The solution to this is obvious: all saleable entities should degrade over time. I mean ALL. Say, for example, your POS loses 10% of its shield HP (or resists) over the course of a year (or two, whatever), or your Raven's lock time gets a bit slower, etc. With depreciation we really would have a second hand market and a clear distinction between those who spend time and effort and ISK making things as a profession, and those who do not. Likewise this would be a natural ISK sink because eventually the item in question would only be good for scrap, and then of course would not refine at 100% efficiency.

All those who think this is the stupidest idea since yesterday, raise your hand.

Please don't move this to "Market Discussions". Only scammers and their stooges comment on threads in there :p.

Lise Kahel
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:47:00 - [2]
 

It's a market. If you've done your job, and there's enough demand for whatever you decided to build, you're not going to have problems with a few people getting rid of their 'second-hand' stuff.

Your complaint is one reflecting incompetence, in case you hadn't noticed.

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:56:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Lise Kahel

Your complaint is one reflecting incompetence, in case you hadn't noticed.


Congratulations. You've scored 0/10 on reading comprehension and 10/10 on being obnoxious.

At no point did I say that I, personally, was having trouble building and selling things. I was simply pointing out one of many stupid aspects of the market and a potential solution to differentiate new build from second hand items.

If you spend all day in 0.01isk games to buy second hand items in order to sell them as new, or your bots do, whatever, then good for you.

Fozzy Dorsai
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:59:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Fozzy Dorsai on 07/04/2011 13:02:52
Your idea has merit as it would be much more realistic. It won't ever get implemented as the logistics of tracking the age of every single module across all of eve would melt the servers. That plus it would make the markets themselves obnoxiously complicated.
So while I like the idea, I'd hate to see it implemented.

PS: While Lise's second paragraph is obnoxious, her first one is accurate. While the game's mechanics may not perfectly simulate real life's rules, by definition they perfectly match the game's rules. An industrialist or trader's job is to figure a way to use those rules to their advantage.

Caghji
Posted - 2011.04.07 13:01:00 - [5]
 

+1 to the idea - would love to see it implemented


Jenna Alduin
Posted - 2011.04.07 13:13:00 - [6]
 

To take a game example, Far Cry 2 implemented a similar weapon degradation system which I personally felt was a valid game mechanic with some interesting gameplay implications and tactical considerations.

Since one of the main points of the game was that you were in a remote part of Africa with hostile dusty weather conditions, the rusting and jamming of weapons fitted well with the setting of the game

However, whilst it had merit, the degradation mechanic was dismissed by some reviewers and many players as annoying, needlessly breaking the core gunplay of the game and, crucially, simply not that much fun.


Jentra Kitel
Posted - 2011.04.07 13:17:00 - [7]
 

Ummm no.

What do you do with super caps? There is no market/contract system for them.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.04.07 14:31:00 - [8]
 

I don't think the problem is so much people selling off "unwanted" stuff (unless we're talking about the meta 0/1/2 modules) but rather that the markets are pretty much saturated.

at this point, you *need* to have a toon with PE5 running a well researched print to even think of breaking even on the item (much less making a profit).

One possible fix (at least for modules/ammo...) would be to completely change how the drop mechanics are (AGAIN) -- but this would need to be done very carefully, so as to not absolutely destroy the markets for these items.


On the other hand though, with the meta1-4 items being so prevalent; there is a nearly 0 market for meta 0 items. This is a bit broken (not so much that the drop rates overall need changed... but perhaps what rat drops them -- ie a lowbie rat in a noobship shouldn't be dropping a meta 4 small turret... NOTE that this is off the cuff, and I pick up the loot very infrequently if I'm missioning )


Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2011.04.07 14:38:00 - [9]
 

Talking about the rat drop rates I assumed the previous "fix" meant that rats were going to be dropping a lot fewer meta 1+4 items and ZERO vanilla T1 items.

But alas no. Hangars are still cluttered up with semi useful junk that either gets recycled eventually or put on the market in sufficient batches.

Ho hum.

Joe Phoenix
The Commonwealth Federation
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:25:00 - [10]
 

It would be really annoying if you had to relace pos's or ships, maybe some kind of repair job? but equipment would need replacing so sure, nice idea.

Joe Phoenix
The Commonwealth Federation
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:32:00 - [11]
 

It would be really annoying if you had to relace pos's or ships, maybe some kind of repair job? but equipment would need replacing so sure, nice idea.

Palovana
Caldari
Inner Fire Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:40:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Burnharder
Edited by: Burnharder on 07/04/2011 12:44:49
In my view there's a fundamental problem with the market in Eve. Well when I say "a fundamental problem", I mean one of the fundamental problems apart from market bots, is... the market for second hand goods, which people generally want to get rid of on the cheap is to all intents and purposes competing directly with people who take time out to build brand new stuff. It's like Arthur Daley's used car lot is right next door to a Lexus factory, and he's selling his knocked off, 20 year old crap for the same price as next door, because it's atom for atom exactly the same as the cars they're making next door. It doesn't make any sense.

The solution to this is obvious: all saleable entities should degrade over time. I mean ALL. Say, for example, your POS loses 10% of its shield HP (or resists) over the course of a year (or two, whatever), or your Raven's lock time gets a bit slower, etc. With depreciation we really would have a second hand market and a clear distinction between those who spend time and effort and ISK making things as a profession, and those who do not. Likewise this would be a natural ISK sink because eventually the item in question would only be good for scrap, and then of course would not refine at 100% efficiency.

All those who think this is the stupidest idea since yesterday, raise your hand.

Please don't move this to "Market Discussions". Only scammers and their stooges comment on threads in there :p.


All of those things you mentioned require a series of custom attributes for each item to track the degradation/deterioration of the targeting/defensive/offensive systems on the ship and all of its modules - or at least a single attribute to track ship/module age which then must be subject to excessive calculations to determine lock time, damage dealt, RoF, etc.

This would make repackaging ships for transport impossible, as a repackaged/stacked item would lose these custom attributes (a stack of packaged objects is one object).

Also, how would you deal with a Maelstrom that has eight 1400mm guns all of which are of mixed age? Could you no longer group weapons?

While it might add a ton of realism to a game, it would most likely cause more of what CCP wants to eliminate: LAG.

I like the idea, and it would have been cool to have it in-game from 2003, but I doubt it would be added now or in the future. If you really want this feature, fly Amarr and use T2/Faction crystals I guess.

Aeronwen Carys
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:57:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aeronwen Carys on 07/04/2011 16:00:46
No difference between "second-hand" and "new" in EVE as there is no such thing as wear and tear. Also anyone making items en-masse will only make a profit by building and selling in bulk, so the single sales here and there by players getting rid of "old" modules would have a negligible impact.

Your "fundamental problem" exists only in your head.

Zhou Wuwang
Federal Laboratories
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:55:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Palovana
All of those things you mentioned require a series of custom attributes for each item to track the degradation/deterioration of the targeting/defensive/offensive systems on the ship and all of its modules - or at least a single attribute to track ship/module age which then must be subject to excessive calculations to determine lock time, damage dealt, RoF, etc.

This would make repackaging ships for transport impossible, as a repackaged/stacked item would lose these custom attributes (a stack of packaged objects is one object).

Also, how would you deal with a Maelstrom that has eight 1400mm guns all of which are of mixed age? Could you no longer group weapons?

While it might add a ton of realism to a game, it would most likely cause more of what CCP wants to eliminate: LAG.

I like the idea, and it would have been cool to have it in-game from 2003, but I doubt it would be added now or in the future. If you really want this feature, fly Amarr and use T2/Faction crystals I guess.


eh, that's not entirely accurate. You don't need to add an attribute to each item, instead you could tier the item type. Make good use of those INT64 type id's. After certain damage or based on time, you could transform the item as a method of depreciation.

For example:
"Maelstrom" remains type id 24694 with all the same stats.
"Used Maelstrom in Excellent Condition" is type id 24695 with some minor degraded stats.
"Used Maelstrom in Good Condition" is type id 24696 with some stats degraded.
"Used Maelstrom in Fair Condition" is type id 24697 with some stats degraded.
"Used Maelstrom in Poor Condition" is type id 24698 with some stats degraded.

Obviously needs better names to describe depreciated condition, but you get the idea.


LOL CYBERKNIGHTS
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:01:00 - [15]
 

No pvp'ers ITT.

Zhou Wuwang
Federal Laboratories
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:07:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: LOL CYBERKNIGHTS
No pvp'ers ITT.


Not true, but also funny, because wouldn't pvp be more interesting if not all similarly fitted ships were equal? Wouldn't it be more interesting if despite surviving a pvp fight your ship wasn't quite as good as before the fight? Loss/risk is what makes pvp exciting and gets the heart pounding.


Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:26:00 - [17]
 

This idea is bad and you should feel bad. Because we can't ban you for posting I suggest the next best thing: booting this to the idea graveyard and troll playground that is Flamers & Idiots.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:28:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Zhou Wuwang


eh, that's not entirely accurate. You don't need to add an attribute to each item, instead you could tier the item type. Make good use of those INT64 type id's. After certain damage or based on time, you could transform the item as a method of depreciation.



And pray tell, how you will track each item if it isn't identified as a single item all of the time?



 

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