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Tiziana Zilpah
Posted - 2011.04.12 15:56:00 - [31]
 

Really, the sentry-rigged Sentry-Ishtar makes this an enjoyable 40 minutes you can do something else Very Happy

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.04.12 16:09:00 - [32]
 

i don't run missions as i live in 0.0 but for killing gutistas a sentry domi with t2 sentry's is the way to go :D

they can jam my ship to hell and back my drones will kill them all :)

Ginguss Zaxx
Posted - 2011.04.12 17:42:00 - [33]
 

Yep confirming that jamming seems to have been made worse with the tweaks... Did you put an extra zero in when you edited the data... Sure seems like it :(

Just did Provisional Guristas Outpost, and was jammed in a cruiser 90% of the time, normally this takes me 5 mins to get in blow the tower and the Dread Guristas spawn, took over 20 minutes this time.

I dread to think what it will be like on the final stage of the escalation as that has some insane jamming normally...

Buzz Hulbreech
Posted - 2011.04.12 22:11:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Buzz Hulbreech on 12/04/2011 22:15:29

Just finished training up a new drakeboy after being disgusted with my domies Lvl4 capabilities after running missions with drake using buddies, how ironic the first level 4 he does on his own, hes suddenly getting jammed to oblivion...been playing 4 years, live in PB, I know Girlistas can jam, but this new stuff is crazy!

Something has definately changed, and to the slide-rule datalovers, you don't need a thermometer to tell you your house is on fire.

Now the Gallente redhead stepchild finally has something it might possibly excell at.


BRB, setting sentries to aggressive. Wink

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.04.12 22:56:00 - [35]
 

Personally I've not been having any trouble running missions like The Assault.

but then again, I like flying drone boats.

Tye Septor
Posted - 2011.04.12 23:26:00 - [36]
 

MadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMadMad
While I don't mind if it were more challenging, this is just tedious and annoying to the point of ruining the fun of the game.

Fair note, so far none of the jam-fest missions I've seen since 1.4 have been a threat to my ship as I'm tanked well enough. I also thought the old "jam once" rule was pretty lame as I could easily work around it, but now jamming forever seems even worse. I really suspect the same as someone else noticed, there's an extra 0 in there somewhere.

With renewable jamming, most missions need to have the ewar rats reduced in number. 4-5 per room should be max, not 5+ per wave.

My main concern is the fact that it seems many level 1s are horrifying now for new players. Frustrating the noobs isn't a good idea if we want to see eve not dwindle off.

grumpyguts1
Posted - 2011.04.13 00:19:00 - [37]
 

I carry a load of FOF missiles in my Tengu and when I get a mission with lots of jamming, I just sit back and enjoy the show.. does however kill blitzing.. but maybe that is what CCP wants.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.13 00:47:00 - [38]
 

New bug? NPC guns can't hit the broadside of a barn?

I have four Pith Eliminators pounding on my CNR in order to get some jamming numbers with the LogServer running. I just noticed that none of them them is hitting me with their guns. I'm stationary in a big fat CNR, they're orbiting at 28km, and yet they still cannot hit me with guns.

Pith Eliminator stats

The cruise missiles hit, but the guns keep missing. Anyone else noticing anything similar?

[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.

Marishma
Posted - 2011.04.13 02:20:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
New bug? NPC guns can't hit the broadside of a barn?

I have four Pith Eliminators pounding on my CNR in order to get some jamming numbers with the LogServer running. I just noticed that none of them them is hitting me with their guns. I'm stationary in a big fat CNR, they're orbiting at 28km, and yet they still cannot hit me with guns.

Pith Eliminator stats

The cruise missiles hit, but the guns keep missing. Anyone else noticing anything similar?

[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:34 ] (combat) Wrath Cruise Missile belonging to Guristas Pirates hits you, doing 49.2 damage.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:35 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.
[ 2011.04.13 00:43:38 ] (combat) Pith Eliminator misses you completely.



I will try and get some log output, I neglected to do so last night when I was running missions, but I have also noticed the same thing, the rats couldn't hit my ship at all. Although I have recently change ship so I thought it was that fact rather then any possible game issue(s), till reading your comments.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.13 05:32:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 13/04/2011 05:33:01
Initial results of NPC jamming test.

I ran the LogServer for an hour against four Pith Eliminators in a CNR in the first room of The Assault. The jamming chances looked accurate. However, the Pith Eliminator sensor values have all changed to 3.0. More on this later. I determined time spent jammed by counting the time between instances of
4512	2011.04.13 03:31:57:800	Attribute maxLockedTargets of module 1506961454 changed from 7.0 to 0.0 value I had was 7.0

in the LogServer output. maxLockedTargets is printed when an EW cycle occurs.

EW success formula is npc_sensor_strength / player_sensor strength. This is seen in the last three numbers of the following LogServer entry:
4306	2011.04.13 00:27:24:547	StartEffect.CheckAttackDefenseStrengths.1b (9000000000000571463L, 1506961454L) (3.0, 27.5) 0.109090909091 False

So 3.0 / 27.5 = 0.109090909091 or 10.9%. Each Pith Eliminator has a 10.9% chance to jam you.

Each run was ~60 minutes in a perma-tanked CNR.


CNR with Sensor Strength: 27.5
Time spent Jammed: 32.1%
Time spent Unjammed: 67.9%
Expected Unjammed Time: (1-0.109090909091)^4 = .62999 or 63.0%

4306	2011.04.13 00:27:24:547	StartEffect.CheckAttackDefenseStrengths.1b (9000000000000571463L, 1506961454L) (3.0, 27.5) 0.109090909091 False


CNR with Sensor Strength: 143
Time spent Jammed: 8.7%
Time spent Unjammed: 91.3%
Expected Unjammed Time: (1-0.0209706379515)^4 = 91.9%

4506	2011.04.13 03:31:57:436	StartEffect.CheckAttackDefenseStrengths.1b (9000000000000571464L, 1506961454L) (3.0, 143.05716435242329) 0.0209706379515 False



NPC Sensor Strength Change
Back in March of 2010 Sturmwolke empircally determined that ECCM does reduce NPC jamming chances. I independenty confirmed his results. When I looked back at my March 2010 data, the LogServer files show that Pith Eliminators had the following Sensor Strengths:
2817	2010.03.07 20:52:59:528	GetAttributeValue 2100164493 scanMagnetometricStrengthBonus 10.5
2821 2010.03.07 20:52:59:528 GetAttributeValue 2100164493 scanRadarStrengthBonus 9.5
2825 2010.03.07 20:52:59:528 GetAttributeValue 2100164493 scanGravimetricStrengthBonus 9.0
2829 2010.03.07 20:52:59:528 GetAttributeValue 2100164493 scanLadarStrengthBonus 10.0


As of today, the Pith Eliminator Sensor Strengths are all set to 3.0.
4491	2011.04.13 03:31:57:435	GetAttributeValue 9000000000000571464 scanMagnetometricStrengthBonus 3.0
4495 2011.04.13 03:31:57:435 GetAttributeValue 9000000000000571464 scanRadarStrengthBonus 3.0
4499 2011.04.13 03:31:57:435 GetAttributeValue 9000000000000571464 scanGravimetricStrengthBonus 3.0
4503 2011.04.13 03:31:57:436 GetAttributeValue 9000000000000571464 scanLadarStrengthBonus 3.0


Draft Conclusion
* At least for the Pith Eliminator, the sensor strength values have changed, which implies that the NPC data was changed in 1.4.
* Jamming chance appears to be computed normally.
* In the case of the Pith Eliminator, the jamming chance should have been reduced due to the Gravimetric sensor strength being reduced from 9.0 to 3.0 in the 1.4 patch.

To Do
* Get more data from the 2nd room of The Assault mission.
* I need to go back and verify that the March 2010 jamming rates matched the theoretical expected jamming rates. If the 2010 jamming rates don't match the theoretical rates then that would imply that the chance of jamming was changed in 1.4. (The 2010 ECCM thread merely confirmed that sensor strength reduced NPC jamming. It did not determine if NPCs were using the standard EW jamming formula.)
* Additionally, while perusing the logs I noticed that Guristas battleships were having trouble hitting a stationary CNR and a mobile Tengu. I need to do more research on this. The implications are that there might be Guristas specific bug affecting the guns on large Guristas ships.

savannah katt
Posted - 2011.04.13 05:40:00 - [41]
 

Very Happy I just want those jammers they have that jam me at 125km away to drop already.

Dilligafmofo
Gallente
Sandman Plc
Posted - 2011.04.13 06:03:00 - [42]
 

Is this to be rectified? or have my Marauders just become redundant?

Zaknussem
Everybody Loves Donuts
Posted - 2011.04.13 11:58:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Guilliman R
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
We are currently looking into recent issues with NPC jamming in missions/complexes. Thanks for your patience.


Let me guess, noone tested it or you refused to listen to the testers. If it's broken it shouldn't get on TQ.


To be frank, "If it's broken it shouldn't get on TQ", applied to its extreme would have prohibited the game from going live 8 years ago in the first place.

But you are otherwise dead on the money. Competence at CCP is at an all-time low. Just by skimming over this thread, the first thing that comes to mind as the cause of the bug is the same thing that happened with Magnetar C6 systems in WH Space - stack enough bonuses on top of one another, and the modifier becomes a negative value, meaning maximum efficiency at all times.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.13 13:43:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: stoicfaux on 13/04/2011 13:50:43

I don't think ECM is broken. I think the problem is that it has been fixed...

It looks like CCP might have cleaned up/fixed the NPC ECM code and the real problem is that it now needs to be re-balanced.

NPC ECM lasts for 20 seconds. Thus we would assume that NPCs would attempt to jam you every 20 seconds. However, when I looked at the March 2010 data, the intervals between jamming checks were all over the place with times ranging from 20 seconds to 60+ seconds to over 300 seconds.

Yesterday's logs show more consistent jam attempts. NPCs attempt to jam every 20 seconds (but every 21st jam attempt occurs after a 27 second interval has passed.)

The reason for the increased jamming in missions might simply be that CCP has fixed NPCs by making them try to jam every 20 seconds which has increased the number of jamming attempts made by NPCs. Since the NPC sensor strengths appear to be hard coded at 3.0 for Pith Eliminators, Pithum Annihilators, and Pithum Nullifiers, it looks like CCP tried to balance the increased frequency of jamming attempts by lowering NPC sensor strength.

Which means that a Golem with a 14 sensor strength has a 3 / 14 = .214 = 21.4% chance of being jammed by an ECM NPC every 20 seconds, or a 78.6% chance of not being jammed. If there are
* 1 NPC Jammers: 78.6% chance of not being jammed
* 2 NPC Jammers: 61.7% " "
* 3 NPC Jammers: 48.5% " "
* 4 NPC Jammers: 38.1% " "
Given that it takes 8-10 seconds for a Golem to lock onto a battleship, you can probably get off two volleys of torpedos before the next jam cycle kicks in.

Needless to say, a handful of NPC jammers can make your day miserable.


IMO, CCP might want to lower NPC sensor strength a bit, or reduce the number of jamming rats that one can encounter at once in a mission.


LaBuffalo
Nordic Innovations
Posted - 2011.04.13 14:02:00 - [45]
 

Assault and GE can be blitz with jam free, duh.....

Intercept The Saboteurs is where the real problem is.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.13 14:39:00 - [46]
 

Eccm is your freind (2 will do most of the time, marauder needs 3). Stealth armour tank buff methinks, all those empty meds on paladin Also i see a niceprice increase for sensor strength implants coming. Really people should stop moaning, its no worse then getting your optimal reduced to 5k vs sansha rats, or infinite nosing blood raiders.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.13 16:33:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Guilliman R
Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object
We are currently looking into recent issues with NPC jamming in missions/complexes. Thanks for your patience.



Let me guess, noone tested it or you refused to listen to the testers. If it's broken it shouldn't get on TQ.


In theory yes.

In practice, name one software company that has never let a bug slip out out to the public.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.04.13 17:19:00 - [48]
 

There are ECCM mods (Backup Sensors) that fit into low slots, they're not as strong as mod slot ECCM but don't need to be activated either.

Plus there are implants, and other options for boosting sensor strength.

And if you're a dedicated mission runner who really hates ninja slvagers, maybe you just go all the way and boost your sensor strength high enough to make you unprobeable, or at least harder to scan down than the other people in system. See, this is a stealth nerf to ninja salvagers, not that ninja salvagers care about Gurstas salvage.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.04.13 18:18:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Mavnas
And this is why I don't run missions against the Guristas.


Don't they also give crappy loot and salvage?

More generally, why isn't there a skill to improve sensor strength? Even just 7.5% per skill level would help a lot. EVE has skillz to get bonuses to almost everything else, with sesor strength being one of the very few exceptions.

Teranul
Posted - 2011.04.13 18:45:00 - [50]
 

Urgh...

Let's be honest, there's nothing NPC jamming that actually adds to the game in any way. If the objective was to nerf mission running, then yes, CCP has succeeded at that most admirably. Otherwise, it's just silly.

I mean, hey, missions are typically run by a solo player going up against some ridiculous number of NPC ships... so, by extension, their E-war capability has to be considerably weaker than player E-war to account for this. Just like their range, tracking, damage, and tanking ability are all considerably weaker than that of any decent player.

Please fix, kthx

Forum Troll Trolling
Forum Trolling Corp
Posted - 2011.04.13 18:56:00 - [51]
 

stealth motsu nerf?
I like!

Amy Elteam
Posted - 2011.04.13 19:02:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Teranul
Urgh...

Let's be honest, there's nothing NPC jamming that actually adds to the game in any way.


Be careful following that logic, I mean once you have an invincible ship then running missions doesn't add anything to the game, since there's no chance of failure. I mean why not just turn the mission system into 'push button, get bacon' if there's no chance of losing.....

Teranul
Posted - 2011.04.13 19:28:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Amy Elteam
Originally by: Teranul
Urgh...

Let's be honest, there's nothing NPC jamming that actually adds to the game in any way.


Be careful following that logic, I mean once you have an invincible ship then running missions doesn't add anything to the game, since there's no chance of failure. I mean why not just turn the mission system into 'push button, get bacon' if there's no chance of losing.....

Meh. The road to getting to that point for a new player is entirely paved with peril, which is fine.

But there are considerably better ways to make missions interesting than throwing constant E-war in players' faces. If anything, the jamming makes already yawn-inducing missions even more boring because there's no pew-pew to be had.

I'd prefer Incursion AI over this **** any day.

karmaaa
Posted - 2011.04.13 20:30:00 - [54]
 

time to find another game, account canceled


Borun Tal
Minmatar
Space Pods Inc
Posted - 2011.04.13 21:38:00 - [55]
 

L4's I've been running lately I use a Heavy Tengu on the mediums, Navy Scorp (cruise) on the large, and the Scorp's T2 drones on those blasted jamming frigates. Both ships tank easily, and my Scorp pilot has insane drone skills so the drone loss/damage is minimal.

Bezatfal
Posted - 2011.04.13 21:43:00 - [56]
 

Do spur implants work, with their additional sensor strength?

Looks like it might be worth gettng some if they do..

No07
Posted - 2011.04.14 06:45:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 13/04/2011 13:50:43

I don't think ECM is broken. I think the problem is that it has been fixed...




This.

It now seems to work just as "well" as for example serpentis sensor dampening in e.g., The Blockade mission. That is a mission that is auto-declined for solo pilots but a very good mission if you bring a friend.

What it leads to is that those missions gets declined and you get the 4-hour waiting. Not a big deal. Adapt.

On a side-note I would also suggest balancing the number of ewar npc's in any given mission. It is not good if the already few good lvl4 mission gets reduced even further. It should be the other way around.

7

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.04.14 07:49:00 - [58]
 

It doesn't make the mission harder just annoying and taking much longer,
I am not asking ccp to nerf it only that they buff the other pirate faction EW aswell, or else nobody is going to run missions for the caldari anymore, unless it is ccp intention to make lvl 4 a group thing aswell which sounds ridicilous since most of them are easy done solo even without a pimped up faction ship

And please ccp have some love for the marauder, i m not asking for more damage or more slots just a bit of love for the marauder sensorstrenght , alot of people invested alot of time training for one and you are slowly step by step making the ship obsolete and useless

Adeena Torcfist
Caldari
Dark Underground Forces
Posted - 2011.04.14 12:08:00 - [59]
 

the Guristas are using the wrong type of ammo & will be corrected.

expect to see that in an upcoming patch Laughing

Kraizer793
88Flak
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:10:00 - [60]
 

Yeah, Jamming isn't the way to go for mission difficulty. My first L4 mission I got the other day was The Assault, and tried to run it in a Drake. even when following the aggro rules from eve-survival, I still was jammed up the whole time. I had to get a friend come in with a remote ECCM / sensor boost Blackbird to help. But really, the ECCM Didn't help at all, even when he had four of them running on me consistently... I had to decline the mission and suffered a .5 standing loss because of it. Back to grinding L3's for me, I s'pose.

I'd be in favor of Incursion AI over the jamming crap. For that matter, even a few Stealth Bombers or smartbombing ships would shake things up a bit in my opinion.


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