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Rindon Callsar
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:32:00 - [1]
 

Well I have just been going through the Quarterly Economic Newsletter (http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf) that just came out and came across this:

"The strategic cruiser’s popularity growth shows no signs of slowing. The ship group has seen substantial quarter-on-quarter growth since its introduction in Apocrypha. Of the strategic cruisers,
7,616 of them were Tengu class, with just 1,577 Legions, 1,531 Lokis and 1,368 Protei being flown,
a clear display of preference for a shield-and-missile-based ship that has been seen by many as a
PvE replacement for the Raven"

Are the other T3's really that bad when compared to the Tengu? I mean in all seriousness, all three of the other types of t3 combined only = 37% or so of the total # of t3s being flown. One t3 accounts for 63% of the population of t3s. Do all the other t3s need a buff to put them in line with the Tengu or does the Tengu need put in line with the other t3s?

Blnukem 192
Amarr
The Imperial Fedaykin
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:34:00 - [2]
 

About 90% of those Tengus are probably for PVE. Rolling Eyes

Horizonist
Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:45:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Blnukem 192
About 90% of those Tengus are probably for PVE. Rolling Eyes

^


Saint Lazarus
Pwn 'N Play
Chaos Theory Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:53:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Saint Lazarus on 05/04/2011 17:53:48
Originally by: Horizonist
Originally by: Blnukem 192
About 90% of those Tengus are probably for PVE. Rolling Eyes

^



^^

I'm sure Drakes account for a large % of the BC class too. But its more of a case of buff the players not the ship classes, you could double the effectiveness of the other t3 and people will still be convinced Caldari is the way to go for PvE.

IoWalker
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:54:00 - [5]
 

whether the vast majority of the T3 cruisers' contribution ended up being PVE or not is immaterial. the Tengu's special gifts of low- and null-sec running and exploration is so much more superior, that that alone warrants some sort of attention.

yeah, it's probably Priority #235423545643 on the list of "What the F is Wrong With EVE" but it's still there in the realm of the T3 available.

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:55:00 - [6]
 

more legions than lokies and proteus?

wutthefock

Nobani
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.05 17:56:00 - [7]
 

Generally "buff all but X" should be implemented as "nerf X".

Mkah Mvet
Duolith Systems
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:00:00 - [8]
 

No, it's okay if the ships aren't equal in performance in every single situation.

What's not okay is that every fully assembled T3 with subsystems use EXACTLY the same number of the EXACT same materials. This is why there is the MNR bottleneck in production. The MNR bottleneck means all sleeper drops that are not MNRs will constantly drop in price relative to MNRs until they are absolutely worthless (which is mostly the case already.) A proper rebalance would have each race use different quantities of different materials. That way a proteus would cost what a proteus is worth and not what a tengu is worth. It would also be nice to have the subsystems materials rebalanced too, because it is really annoying to have a subsystem blueprint that is worse than worthless because the construction costs are decided by the valuable subsystems.

But yeah, imo, it's okay that not all things are created equal, but allow things to cost what they are worth.

IoWalker
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:02:00 - [9]
 

interesting view, Mkah. maybe it can be addressed at the production cost level.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:11:00 - [10]
 

tbh you see alot of webloki, scramproteus and neutlegions in pvp. The tengus numbers are just so high because of pve

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:13:00 - [11]
 

I'm quite sure that, altho T3's have some issues (legion's worthless cov ops setups, loki's schizoid slot layouts, meh proteus' drone setups, even the tengu's lolrail setup, and nevermind the 5th sub), there are far, far, far too many issues in this game that need a whoop first.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:13:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Horizonist
Originally by: Blnukem 192
About 90% of those Tengus are probably for PVE. Rolling Eyes

^




Confirming. I own three Tengus. And all three are used for carebearing ugh.


IoWalker
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:18:00 - [13]
 

this also involves a free pass from any threat of PVP at chokepoints, as well as doing PVE in areas that typically beg for PVP. a Tengu short circuits the two concepts, and this is an issue of accessibility for others without a Tengu to reap the ISK.

They should definitely be either more expensive, or other T3 cruisers be buffed, or lastly the Tengu nerfed. just that CCP won't do any of this i am sure.

Hesperius
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Blnukem 192
About 90% of those Tengus are probably for PVE. Rolling Eyes

I bet its more than that.

Adam Weishaup
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:27:00 - [15]
 

Maybe the T3 frigs might finally say "no, no you're not about to get 300 million ISK on a complex because imma stop your little running a gatecamp subsystem.

Burnharder
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:27:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Grog Barrel
more legions than lokies and proteus?

wutthefock


For me it's simply a question of cross-training time. Already a high SP Amarrian pilot, it's going to be painful to get a well skilled Tengu pilot up and running. I am doing it though, because 7,000 pilots can't be wrong Shocked.

Gruumsh A'Poc
Posted - 2011.04.05 18:30:00 - [17]
 

The Tengu works in WH so well because of the longer range of missles vs other gun types, and it's easy to fit a good tank with decent AB speed, and balanced cap. Other T3s are still great and have their niche, but for soloing C3s or Lvl4s, the Tengu is the perfect ship once you have T2 guns and faction fittings.

StillBorn CrackBaby
Posted - 2011.04.05 20:03:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Horizonist
Originally by: Blnukem 192
About 90% of those Tengus are probably for PVE. Rolling Eyes

^




Confirming. I own three Tengus. And all three are used for carebearing ugh.



Heh heh, 3 for me too. All for carebearing fun...

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.04.05 20:16:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby
Originally by: Exlegion
Confirming. I own three Tengus. And all three are used for carebearing ugh.



Heh heh, 3 for me too. All for carebearing fun...

I only have two ... I should buy one extra too!! Neutral

Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:59:00 - [20]
 

This is like saying that ravens are superior to all other BS...


Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:07:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Sidus Isaacs on 06/04/2011 10:14:03
Tegnu is used for PVE. But it is also the best T3 outside of very niche stuff.

Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:10:00 - [22]
 

Once a fashion gets momentum it often runs away. I personally extol the virtues of a blaster fit proteus. not really a nullsec ship but for hisec wardecs and baiting and ganking mission runners it's ridiculous dps and decent tank are a good mix. Plus an afterburner fit gives a really small sig which is not to be underestimated.

However it's a ship you need to fully commit to get the best of. it's poorly set up for skirmish fighting.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:44:00 - [23]
 

My T3 collection:
- 1 PVE Tengu
- 1 PVE Loki
- 1 PVP Tengu
- 2 PVP Proteus

Notice the lack of Legions? Wink

-Liang

AristotleOnassis
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:59:00 - [24]
 

PVE T3's
4 rigor-ab tengu's
4 hydraulic-mwd tengu's
2 standard too-lazy-to-bring-to-jita rigor-flare tengu

PVP T3's
2 tengu (100mn)
2 protii (covert and insta-lock)

Not surprised with the statistic, half as many tengu's as drakes!

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.06 00:03:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: AristotleOnassis
2 protii (covert and insta-lock)



protii...

hmm that seems to be an interesting ship. please tell more.

EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:45:00 - [26]
 

I would never fly such junk.

Netheranthem
Eve Engineering Finance
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:05:00 - [27]
 

I saw how a legion did, and I'd say, as far as PvE goes, it's totally fine (Cap stable witout much effort, awesome tank with 160m sig radius).
Maybe the DPS is a bit low, but it didn't have T2 lasers.

Cyhawk
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:06:00 - [28]
 

Loki and Proteus have their use. Loki being an exceptional cross between a Vaga and Raiper, workable extremely well in large fleet battles and small alike. Proteus being a nearly unkillable sig/ehp combo that makes a great bait/tackle ship. Both are PvP oriented and serve their role.

However both the Loki and Proteus could use a buff in their PvE departments. Good, but other ships are better in their respective races. Not really an issue tbh.

The only T3 in need of a buff is the Legion. Its roles as a Combat (compared to Zealot) or Tackler (Compared to a Pilgrim) are both pretty bad. The Combat version is only marginally better than a stock Zealot, not really worth the extra isk.

In the tackler role, the Legion is much better than a Pilgrim, but still pretty bad as the role the pilgrim fills is pretty niche to begin with. (However in this role, it IS worth it.)

Meh, but what do I know.. or for that matter, what does CCP care ;) Not going to get fixed, I'll stick to a Zealot/Pilgrim for my Amarr pure alt.

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:15:00 - [29]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Dr Nefarius
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:29:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Mkah Mvet
No, it's okay if the ships aren't equal in performance in every single situation.

What's not okay is that every fully assembled T3 with subsystems use EXACTLY the same number of the EXACT same materials. This is why there is the MNR bottleneck in production. The MNR bottleneck means all sleeper drops that are not MNRs will constantly drop in price relative to MNRs until they are absolutely worthless (which is mostly the case already.) A proper rebalance would have each race use different quantities of different materials. That way a proteus would cost what a proteus is worth and not what a tengu is worth. It would also be nice to have the subsystems materials rebalanced too, because it is really annoying to have a subsystem blueprint that is worse than worthless because the construction costs are decided by the valuable subsystems.

But yeah, imo, it's okay that not all things are created equal, but allow things to cost what they are worth.



Having the 4 races use different bottlenecks for their t3 production... sounds sweet. Would mean CCP doesn't have to worry as much about the balance between them.


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