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Kajan Tormen
Minmatar
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:22:00 - [31]
 

I'm not going to respond to all the whining going on here, however, one point came up in the discussion I want to emphasize:

kill rights are all but useless to an industrialist.
So introducing tradeable kill rights would a) provide higher risk to criminals and b) support an actual bounty hunting profession.

(not that it would affect -10 outlaws like myself in any way YARRRR!!)

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:57:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Kajan Tormen
I'm not going to respond to all the whining going on here, however, one point came up in the discussion I want to emphasize:

kill rights are all but useless to an industrialist.
So introducing tradeable kill rights would a) provide higher risk to criminals and b) support an actual bounty hunting profession.

(not that it would affect -10 outlaws like myself in any way YARRRR!!)


I don't think tradeable kill rights are needed. I think it would be much better if kill rights were to go to a corporation rather than the individual. This would serve the dual purpose of letting people with actual combat skills get these kill rights while simultaneously providing an incentive for industrialists to join corporations and for those corporations to maintain an effective combat force capable of claiming them.

Heck it would even provide a potential revenue stream for lone wolf mercs to join up with a corporation long enough to go take advantage of a kill right (for a fee of course).

Because I do agree with the premise that kill rights are mostly useless to an industrialist since taking time to learn some combat skills undermines their interest in becoming better industrialists (there just isn't much in the way of overlap in skills between the professions).


Freay Chrome
Posted - 2011.04.06 14:07:00 - [33]
 

So since no-one asked yet.. Can I have your stuff?

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.06 14:43:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Captain JeanLuc' Picard
Edited by: Captain JeanLuc'' Picard on 05/04/2011 22:13:42
Edited by: Captain JeanLuc'' Picard on 05/04/2011 22:09:56
Quote:
It's why the 1st rule of EVE exists. Never fly anything you aren't prepared to lose.


and what if we cant afford anything ? ... when we have nothing left to insure our ships with and buy modules again ? - continuously losing isk and having to use cheaper and cheaper ships just to mine our way back up again to the ship we originally had ??


If that's the case then you already broke the first rule which is why you are in that situation at all.

Besides even if you screw up and lose everything you can always hop in a newb ship and use it to rebuild your wallet. Or go run the tutorials again for another faction (some decent rewards from running them).

I mean a covetor is what about 10 mil isk maybe? That's a fairly trivial amount to make even for a new character. 3 to 4 million for strip miners a couple mil for cargo expanders and few hundred thousand for a small shield extender. So what 20-30 mil isk total.

Now if you actually followed rule 1 you wouldn't have even undocked that covetor until you had enough isk in your bank to replace it if lost or at least have understood that you were indeed taking a risk and would have had a fall back option.

For example I have a couple mission runner characters one is in a Navy BS and the other has a fairly pimped out Maelstrom if they got ganked I'd be a bit pressed atm for the liquid isk to simply replace them I could do it but it would effectively wipe out my existing liquid reserves. I still however use those ships. My fall back position is that I've got a vanila Domi and could easily afford a simple T2 fit Mael that would be effective enough to rebuild.

The thing to understand is that a ship is a tool in EVE.
A disposable tool at that. You use them until you either screw up or get unlucky after which you figure out what ever lessons should be learned then peel another off the stack.

The suicider does the same he's going to have hangers full of ships and modules. He'll have done the math he'll know what his break even point and where he starts to make a profit. He has other less tangible costs to consider as well he'll have to maintain his sec status or use an alt in an Orca to bring in ships for his use.

He'll have to have at least 2 accounts to gank you one to do the ganking and a hauler to collect your stuff and probably a 3rd to scan you down so they don't have to waste time approaching you.

How do you protect yourself from this? You stay aligned and you warp out the second any ship that could be a threat to you lands on grid. Keep an eye on local and watch for outlaws and be particularly cautious if a large group of them are in system.

It also wouldn't hurt to avoid busy systems, Griefers tend to be lazy and spend most of their time in places with the maximum opportunities (read highest pool of potential victims) you aren't likely to run into problems in some out of the way system that no one operates in.

As noted elsewhere you can always join an industrial focused corporation which would provide you with experienced pilots to teach you the ropes you could end up in a WH or Null sec corp which would have more options to provide proactive security.

The question is can you get out of the victim mentality. Because if you can't then you really aren't cut out for EVE.

Eladaris
Amarr
Excessum Industries
Posted - 2011.04.06 16:00:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Eladaris on 06/04/2011 16:09:44
TL;DR > The OP is really just bad.

He wants trade hubs to be completely safe areas, where suicide ganks can't occur. That's probably perfectly fine for other games... but you're crazy if you think that's how Eve Online works.

Ultimately he's just wayyy too scatter shot with his complaints. He complains endlessly about 24h old recycled alts doing suicide ganking, but wasn't ganked by one... He wants other player's to form up and protect him... when he can't even be bothered to defend himself, nor punish the guy who killed his ship. Heck... he isn't even in a Player Corp where his fellow corp mates could offer some tips like "Hey, Arnon ain't safe to AFK mine in".

CCP gives him 100% of the needed tools to go out and kill him. You've got kill rights on this guy for 30 days. Go train some of those magical 24h gank skills and return the favor. You didn't lose a hauler full of pricey stuff to a -10 pirate in low-sec... you lost it to a guy who probably feels perfectly safe in his hunting ground.

He's flying the cheapest possible glass cannon... his gank boat probably doesn't have much more tank than your miner.... and if you try to kill him... CONCORD won't defend him.

The ultimate irony?

So the OP's mining away in Arnon of all places. The FIFTH most popular system in all of Eve Online's 5000+ solar systems. If you've EVER bothered to look at the number of player ships destroyed there every hour you'll find it's typically over 15.... every 60 minutes. There's typically over a hundred people there at any one time. It's a trade hub for God's sake.

According to dotlan, 493 ships got destroyed there in just the past 24 hours.

Seriously? If you're flying a ship you can't easily afford to replace and that you can't possibly tank... Perhaps doing so in a VERY dangerous system isn't the best of notions?

Fly three or four jumps out, do your mining in a 0.8 or higher sec status system that doesn't suffer a ship kill every 240 seconds, m'kay? Most of the miner's operating in dangerous locations know what they're doing. They understand the risks, and they're willing to undertake them for the higher profits involved.

Or... you know... WoW. They have servers where PvP isn't allowed. That's probably much more your style. If you're playing in a risky area in a ship that's easily destroyed at least be smart about it. Or you know, go somewhere safe and deal with the added hassle of dragging your ore to market. You'll die a LOT less often.

If you want some legit tips... Find a quieter system... There are at least 4994 systems that have less people at any one time. Pick one. Find a belt that you're in solo. If ANYTHING warps in, be ready to warp out. If someone zips in and gets close to you, be in warp already. If THREE ships warp in, be sitting in the station before they even get a chance to look at your ship. And remember Eve's rule #1, if you can't afford to replace the ship... don't fly it. And apparently you really can't handle the risks of Arnon.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.06 16:48:00 - [36]
 

Here's an example of why none of the methods mentioned will stop suicide ganking.

Had a toon in the corp coming home to mission after cleaning out a WH. 2 toons went back to HQ, one went to jita and sell, then return to HQ with a Pirate BS BPC.

3 Jumps out the ship was one shotted and it dropped the BPC. 260 mil was paid for the BPC, market value was 300 mil.

Now, even if you gave him -10 status, made him pay for the insurance on the itty, and paid absolutely no insurance on his ship to begin with (assuming it wasnt his 1st gank), he would still make profit. 200 mil or so.

I totally agree that its not the same thing as when you get ganked in a mining vessel for nothing more than the "lulz". I have felt that pain as you have. Suicide ganked in a hulk by 9 "players" in ships named "jihad".

I am sorry to say that you simply cant remove the mechanic from the game as the gentleman in the former example was not abusing anything. It's a totally legit tactic for making profit.

The problem therefore is that some people are using the tactic as a tool for piracy and some people are using the tactic for griefing. Griefing is against the rules, but the definition is very ambiguous, and therefore almost impossible to enforce.

The time where my hulk was ganked was during the first hulkagheddon during my tenure in New Eden. I have subsequently mined during every single hulkagheddon since then and not been suicide ganked because I learned to take the threat seriously, and defend against it accordingly. You should learn to do the same.

IMHO it should be considered griefing if someone kills you 3 times for no profit. The only reason to do that is to harass you.

Morbidusk Yotosala
Posted - 2011.04.06 17:52:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Morbidusk Yotosala on 06/04/2011 17:55:03
OP I do feel where you are coming from. As I am still mostly fresh to EVE. I've played plenty of MMO's FPS's amd just games built on pvp. So I know what it means to be ganked, caught out in the open or just plain griefed. One thing I must say now before going any further is that you will find no love from the people of EVE. In game or on forums when it comes to situations about griefing.

Most "vet" player feel like its part of the game and that ccp has no reason to change it and that is all fine and dandy, but that does not allow an EXPERIENCED player who ABSOLUTELY knows when he is griefing and when he/she is actually playing the game as a rl situation protrayed in game if that makes any sense.

The problem from the gank/grief is when people forget how to "gank" and only remember how to "grief". Its well within RP to use anything towards your advantage to insure your victory. Meta-gaming has its place in EVE unlike some other MMOs. You're going to have to thicken your skin and more importantly put away any sign of trust or respect for any other capsuleer.

When encountering a new capsuleer the first thought in yyour head shoud be your tactic on getting rid of them or escape. If you are not willing to kill and pod someone on first sight just because you dont want to come off as a **** then im sorry.

Once these grifers see that you arent just some push over and although may lose. You at least have the respect of fighting and perhaps if there are two possible ganks you might not be chosen for that fact.
Edit: There are ways to put bounties on players. Get some money put out a bounty. It wont be paid out till it is fullfilled i believe. No sure how it works but if you can find a merc who is willing to put in some work for a fair share. I'm sure you can find someone to own the guy for a week for a good offer.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.06 18:16:00 - [38]
 

No, never put bounties on a player. Its the same as handing them the cash.

Proffesor Vaughn
Posted - 2011.04.06 19:00:00 - [39]
 

My question is this.

Why would anyone ever name a character Captain JeanLuc' Picard and train them to be a carebear industrialist?

Knokploeg
Posted - 2011.04.06 19:36:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Proffesor Vaughn
My question is this.

Why would anyone ever name a character Captain JeanLuc' Picard and train them to be a carebear industrialist?


Why would you expect a trekkie to be anything but a carebear? If you cannot even handle a bit of excitement or conflict in your TV viewing, chances are you'll stick with the PvE content.

Deuscariot
Posted - 2011.04.06 19:41:00 - [41]
 

Honestly,

I think the situation is quite the opposite. CCP needs to make it EASIER to suicide gank miners. After all - Miners were added to Eve to provide something for pirates to suicide gank. Right now, the difficulty level on this feature is too high. Possible solutions:

A. Concord provides pirates with bombs.
B. Concord themselves suicide ganks Miners.
C. When I attempt to suicide gank and it fails to kill the miner, I get kill rights on them.

Just a few theories.

Jaik7
Posted - 2011.04.07 05:07:00 - [42]
 

you mined in arnon?

arnon, where a frozen corpse can be found outside the SOE station almost every hour of every day?

that arnon?

and you're complaining?

i am a carebear who has only heard "your security status has been lowered" in youtube videos, both of who's kills came when someone else aggressed me first. i cannot support your frustration because you mined in arnon, got ganked, and then (here's the one i really care about) complained.

best to stick to the higher hisec systems till you can fit a proper tank on the hulk. just having a couple hardeners wards off competent pirates and provides lovely lulz and tears from the incompetent ones. yes, tears. pirate tears have the best AU/gallon of all the tears. its better for the enviroment.

eve online is not a game designed to ensure all is fair. sometimes it seems that it is intended not to be fair. most people acept that as the game they paid for, and it shows that they like it when they continue payiing for it. you looked at last fanfest's population count?

mmazing
Strategic Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:17:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: mmazing on 07/04/2011 06:17:17
Oh hai! Welcome to EVE!

Your tears sustain me.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:20:00 - [44]
 

The thing that angered me most about this thread is the fact that the OP has taken a perfectly decent character name and tarnished it most greviously. Captain Picard wouldn't be caught dead *mining*, and you know it.

mmazing
Strategic Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:27:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Kajan Tormen
I'm not going to respond to all the whining going on here, however, one point came up in the discussion I want to emphasize:

kill rights are all but useless to an industrialist.
So introducing tradeable kill rights would a) provide higher risk to criminals and b) support an actual bounty hunting profession.

(not that it would affect -10 outlaws like myself in any way YARRRR!!)


Nonsense, there are plenty of people who sit around ****ing each other in Arnon (who have kill rights on me) who could easily pop my untanked Thorax or Catalyst while I am sitting outside of the station.

Not that I would really care ...

mmazing
Strategic Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Darryl Ward
The only change they should make in regards to this is voiding insurance payouts for kamikaze gank ships.

Miners are supposed to be weak, that's why you should find friends.


Yeah ... I never insure my ships that I use to gank, I don't care if I lose money, or if the people being ganked will turn a profit.

Veronica Dostovi
Posted - 2011.04.07 11:10:00 - [47]
 

Listen Captain, you make a good argument but no one here will listen cause there sexualy frustrated nerds and think there above most players in the MMO market. Truth is most have been playing since the start and have a gagillion skill points and feel any change could hurt there ego and status in this game giving them less of a feel of being such a special snow flake.

Chasity Lane
Posted - 2011.04.07 11:19:00 - [48]
 

HAHAHAHAHAHA...Cry more carebears!!1 You feed my hunger with your Tearz!!

Debrie
Posted - 2011.04.07 15:16:00 - [49]
 

FYI - the higher the security status of where you mine , the faster the responce time of Concord , Mining in a 1.0 system moving lower n lower as your skills grow should help you avoid idiots that think "this is pvp and somehow makes the game unique"

rumncock
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:22:00 - [50]
 

"Eve is not supposed to look like a dark menacing universe, eve is supposed to BE an dark menacing universe" -ccp dev who's name I forgot

Learn from your mistakes and adapt, don't take it so seriously, consider doing something more fun than mining and in all cases get in a corp that can help you. Eve is an battle of knowhow and you're at the very bottom not really understanding the world around you.

gl hf, don't fly too safe.

LinChow
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:29:00 - [51]
 

to the OP:
For half your ore, I'll protect you from gankers.

For all your ore... I'll gank you.

Let me know which option you prefer.

>>it's just part of the game<<

Delphia Alandro
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:44:00 - [52]
 

Keep aligned and don't fly what you cant afford to lose

munitqua
Caldari
BlackSite Prophecy
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:16:00 - [53]
 

Quit mining, i have perfect hulk skills, the day i quit was the day EvE got 200 times better, PVP all the way!

Da Jiling
Posted - 2011.04.10 19:20:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Da Jiling on 10/04/2011 19:33:16
Feel your pain, however EvE is a sandbox where this kind of thing can and WILL happen.

Take the fight to the greifers... I have (ok this is an alt.. ive been the other side of the fence and griefed as well) but setting up greifers and then looting their gear is sweet sweet justice only matched by the delicous tears in local that follow.

And watching al the ridiculous chest beating on here makes me cringe... if you grief, good on you... boasting about it? Creepy..YARRRR!!

Sister Citadel
Posted - 2011.04.11 04:52:00 - [55]
 

This has been an interesting thread and while I do understand the original posters angst, no one has really focused on the ganker himself.

I have looked into his kill records and while at first someone may say "Hey this jerk just goes in with a cheap ship and blows up innocent miners in Covetors, Retreivers and well, even solo ganks Hulks in Highsec."

However it is not that simple. To begin with his account or "toon" rather is not a simple throw away alt. He has to have massive skills trained for this to work and after a nice spree of highsec kills (which has to be fun), he has to return to 0.0 and kill some major rats to get his security rating back up. So he can come back and have the fun he earned to with skill training. So, I support the ganker fully and congratulate him on finding just the right balance of skills to use a low cost ship to target what he wants, where he wants.

It would be interesting to know what skills he has. I suspect a lot of topped out L5's.

SC

mmazing
Strategic Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.11 18:32:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Sister Citadel
This has been an interesting thread and while I do understand the original posters angst, no one has really focused on the ganker himself.

I have looked into his kill records and while at first someone may say "Hey this jerk just goes in with a cheap ship and blows up innocent miners in Covetors, Retreivers and well, even solo ganks Hulks in Highsec."

However it is not that simple. To begin with his account or "toon" rather is not a simple throw away alt. He has to have massive skills trained for this to work and after a nice spree of highsec kills (which has to be fun), he has to return to 0.0 and kill some major rats to get his security rating back up. So he can come back and have the fun he earned to with skill training. So, I support the ganker fully and congratulate him on finding just the right balance of skills to use a low cost ship to target what he wants, where he wants.

It would be interesting to know what skills he has. I suspect a lot of topped out L5's.

SC


You're completely right, *pop ships* -> *get sec status back* -> *pop ships* -> *repeat*

I just have too much money, I don't do it for profit, only for tears.

Forum Troll Trolling
Forum Trolling Corp
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:31:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: rumn****
"Eve is not supposed to look like a dark menacing universe, eve is supposed to BE an dark menacing universe" -ccp dev who's name I forgot

Learn from your mistakes and adapt, don't take it so seriously, consider doing something more fun than mining and in all cases get in a corp that can help you. Eve is an battle of knowhow and you're at the very bottom not really understanding the world around you.

gl hf, don't fly too safe.


eve is not a dark menacing universe by itself, the GMs, Devs, players non-NPCs that inhabit eve make it that way

Harkour Sensi
Posted - 2011.04.11 19:34:00 - [58]
 

I only read the first page and a half of this, hopefully you realised that you are in the minority.

Now I ask you to think about one thing fella.

If ships didn't get blown up, what's the ****ing point in mining?

Oh and HAHAHAHAHAHAHA the guy who ganks you, he is laughing at you and now so are we, you just fed the troll, good job son, welcome to the internets.

Abacus Tegan
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:04:00 - [59]
 

No sympathy for the macrominer. We make a habit of blowing them up as well.

What has not been addressed is the skill set to suicide gank solo in a Catalyst.

Actually my alt is working on it.

Anyone willing to share recipes?

Vaju Katru
Posted - 2011.04.15 10:03:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Vaju Katru on 15/04/2011 10:07:46
Carebear tears Laughing

Their is no "griefing" in EvE, their is nothing wrong with suicide ganking, its part of the game, maybe you shouldn't be playing a hardcore PvP game...


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