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blankseplocked Reporting from the front line of the Bot-War
 
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Samillian
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:41:00 - [121]
 

Quote:
This argument has been heard before and has got to stop. Really.

First of all, how much resources do you think CCP have allocated in dealing with the issue. All the petitions, checking them etc.etc., these cost serious manpower.

Then there is the extra server load which forces CCP which ultimately costs money as well.

Lastly, there is the RMT element where CCP is just losing hard money

Finally, there is the ethical point of view and just doing what is right. If CCP doesn't contain this issue, than it would grow out of control, crippling and ruining EVE and CCP.


Says it all, if banning bots really had the potential to damage CCP's financial stability it wouldn't be happening.

Excellent thread NinjaSpud, many thanks for the work you've put into it and here's hoping that this is the beginning of very hard times for the bot/RMT community.

Keep up the good work CCP.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:43:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 05/04/2011 23:03:38

Updated report.

"Website C" is down. I just logged onto it, they had a sticky in their forums that been posted today. "XXX Is no longer avaliable for download."


The sticky appeared right above their "I've been banend thread."...but get this

While I was writing this post, I went back to the website to get some quotes, and both threads where gone. Deleated. It was, however, shortly replaced with a sticky thread that read:

"The XXBotNameXX release downloads have been taken offline and the XXBotNameXX subforums have been closed until a new version of XXBotNameXX is ready for release.

Current progress on XXBotNameXX 3.7; Good, some minor difficulties with the new future-proof OCR.

Eta; 3-4 days. "

CCP's actions have completly halted a large, popular online macro miner program. The forum admin has deleted all accounts of the "i've been banned thread" as well as the short-lived "we're down" sticky.

Website A appears unchanged, whereas Website B still has many posts of botters claiming the Eve market will suffer without their support. And a fare amount of people who claim that they will quit the game if this ban continues.


On a sub note, does anyone know if I can post the name of the macro programs here? I dont wanna get my thread locked, or violate any terms.

or are we all ok w/ me refering to them as Website A, B, or C.

Samillian
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:43:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Samillian on 05/04/2011 22:44:29
More good news :)

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.05 22:44:00 - [124]
 

I was wondering if we could eavesdrop on the botting community and figure out where they typically mine. That way, we could hire mercenaries in Eve to gank the crap out them. :)

Baljos Arnjak
Posted - 2011.04.05 23:24:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn
I was wondering if we could eavesdrop on the botting community and figure out where they typically mine. That way, we could hire mercenaries in Eve to gank the crap out them. :)


That's something I've been wondering about too because I'd love to go gank a few. If they're more prevalent out in 0.0 all the better because I won't have to replace ships due to concordokken.Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.04.05 23:24:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Henry Haphorn
I was wondering if we could eavesdrop on the botting community and figure out where they typically mine. That way, we could hire mercenaries in Eve to gank the crap out them. :)


I can think of a number of ways this could be done. I'll leave it to your friendly player bros to fill in the blanks.

Reonetii
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.06 00:43:00 - [127]
 

Bots destroy the game.

Will it affect CCP's bottom line?
Sure. How long, until eve becomes a game of players once again.

Long term effect if all bots could be removed?
Eve would become more vibrant socialized and real in it's economy.

Botters (lazy isk earners) justify that the economy would collapse without their sustaining it with plex and minerals etc.
So what!
Let's put eve back a few notches on the flow of resources and turn mining & ratting into a socialized required activity as it was before, where small teams roamed harvesting rats together, and mining groups were regularly found in the Belts.

Players got greedy and lazy (maybe bored too) but still wanted the isk flow they had before and so put to test CCP's resolve and grabbed themselves a Bot program and saw that they could get away with it (for some time) what they ended up doing was ruining the game.

Before you corp/alliance heads react and say, that current operations wouldn't be as they are today if it wasn't for the passive Bot incomes supplied into your ops, so what, maybe it shouldn't be the way it is.

What removing Bot incomes would do to your large associations would increase your management and delegation responsibilities, as no longer could you leave the support incomes to passive obedient processes, rather you would have to build and sustain your ops on trust and devotion, more players would "feel" their input was fruitful and required, bringing about the personal satisfaction of inclusion and respect, building better and stronger corp/alliance bonds and making a better game for all.

Would this keep your associations as large as current? No idea, it might reduce it in the short term, but it definitely would make for a stronger formed and committed alliance. People need to feel included, being a part of management and resultant growth etc makes them satisfied.

Currently under the method of bot incomes, people can play lazy, go for one major op a month or week or whatever required with their main, and sustain the grind time with a bot, this is simply wrong.

Why is is wrong?

The whole point of the sandbox is connections, socially - or antisocially.
Social players work to a greater cause, antisocial players like to be left to solo, do their own agenda, whether that be grinding alone for more shineys or disrupt the social players game style.
Bots do neither, they fill a gap for the LAZY/GREEDY player, that neither wants to be social, or antisocial, he leaves income gathering to a mute process and then says he wants to participate in the social aspect of eve with his main in a awesome fleet battle, getting a sense of victory from winning said battles, but really he hasn't won, as the process really cost him nothing, the income to sustain the battle was passively derived and therefore an empty victory, no pain no gain, athletes that "win" events from their own personal strengths rejoice in that victory, it's not hollow because they put in the time and pain to bring the end result. Bots (just like steroids) reduce the victory to empty feelings in the long run.

Go ahead CCP ban all the bots and make it severe, you will make a better, stronger vibrant game in the long run. Which is what we all want.

Word of mouth advertising is often what seeds product interest, are players going to join if the word on the street is EVE online is a game full of bots?

What hope does a new player have of building their income?
They are forced to join the ranks of botters in the long run to keep their income source on the same level and compete equally, so botting has destroyed the game, in it's own way, lessening the value of isk and assets and robbing the social networks that once survived and made the game fun.

garus banta
Posted - 2011.04.06 01:03:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: garus banta on 06/04/2011 01:06:02
Better yet, CCP should allow a mechanism that tags known bot accounts and removes concord protection by perma tagging them with criminal standings.

I say don't ban the accounts at all but instead make them targets in ALL of new eden.

Further add a menu to the eve map which shows current BOTS in space and tags the system as well.

Give us the tools to hunt them down ONE by one and botting will be forever wiped out.


CCP does the tagging we do the body bagging.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.04.06 01:10:00 - [129]
 

Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please!

I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk.

Reonetii
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.06 01:19:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: garus banta
Edited by: garus banta on 06/04/2011 01:06:02
Better yet, CCP should allow a mechanism that tags known bot accounts and removes concord protection by perma tagging them with criminal standings.

I say don't ban the accounts at all but instead make them targets in ALL of new eden.

Further add a menu to the eve map which shows current BOTS in space and tags the system as well.

Give us the tools to hunt them down ONE by one and botting will be forever wiped out.


CCP does the tagging we do the body bagging.



Yeah I walked away after posting the above and thought this the same.

Wouldn't it be fun for the newer players to get in a kill or two that otherwise wouldn't be possible? Nice red juicy hulk sitting there in the belt unaware he has a flag on him/her

Flagging the bots instead of banning, would be silent to the bot users, the only notice they get is a loss mail, and better still if they had more ships in station and returned to station and got in the replacement only to die again, this would raise isk value quick.

Reonetii
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.06 01:22:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please!

I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk.


Maybe even higher based on my observations.

That's a lot of inactive/automated game play, crushing the social building aspect. Sure the game seems fuller of players, but really? One system I regularly sit in would have 3-4 regular 'real" players and up to 18-20 bots at a time everyday.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.04.06 01:31:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 06/04/2011 01:31:08
Originally by: Reonetii
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please!

I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk.


Maybe even higher based on my observations.

That's a lot of inactive/automated game play, crushing the social building aspect. Sure the game seems fuller of players, but really? One system I regularly sit in would have 3-4 regular 'real" players and up to 18-20 bots at a time everyday.


I used to say "Bros before silos, quit PI today!" in general I hate the anti-social aspects of eve ...


CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.04.06 01:37:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please!

I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk.


If I could answer that there'd be x% fewer people playing right now.

Mighty Dread
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:11:00 - [134]
 

Botters tears, perhaps the tastiest of all.

I really do believe EVE can and would recover from the majority (if not all) botters being booted from the game. I don't think CCP when designing EVE automatically made room for botters or otherwise made botting a necessary activity in EVE in order for the game to work. No more bots means if anything people got to start getting involved in the game and being a more active part of the economy. Perhaps too, miners might finally get some respect.

cyndrogen
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:29:00 - [135]
 

Eve online hsould simply track mouse movement to detect botting.

Human players will never click the same pixel location twice.

Human players will DRAG the pointer across the screen, if the mouse pointer jumps from one location to another and lands perfectly each and every time on the same pixel.... guess what! It's a bOT!

Design a mouse tracking program to monitor mouse movement and you will be in a much better position to ban bots.

Keep tabs on memory and remote desktop apps which are open.

Shut every weak door and put a lock on it!

cyndrogen
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:33:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please!

I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk.


If I could answer that there'd be x% fewer people playing right now.


Maybe I can help.

In my system we have around 14 to 17 miners, we know of at least 3 that are bots. So that roughly translates to 17% to 21%.

Although this number is a very limited guess based on my observations, I bet that overall the game has at least HALF that percentage if not more who are pure bots.

Xianthar
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:34:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: cyndrogen
Eve online hsould simply track mouse movement to detect botting.

Human players will never click the same pixel location twice.

Human players will DRAG the pointer across the screen, if the mouse pointer jumps from one location to another and lands perfectly each and every time on the same pixel.... guess what! It's a bOT!

Design a mouse tracking program to monitor mouse movement and you will be in a much better position to ban bots.



right, since randomizing mouse movements and keyboard input timing hasn't been done in bot programs since diablo II (probably earlier)Rolling Eyes

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:35:00 - [138]
 

14 day bans? WTF??

I'd gladly pay a higher subscription if the cheaters got kicked, permanently. Imagine how amazing this game would be if the economy had meaning.

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:38:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
On a sub note, does anyone know if I can post the name of the macro programs here? I dont wanna get my thread locked, or violate any terms.

or are we all ok w/ me refering to them as Website A, B, or C.


On the assumption that posting anything at all generally leads to a lock, or a bit of "moderation", can you not just post a sentence from each site. We can then google it, and voila, no harm done. And we are all lead to some sites. :-)

Varcaus
Posted - 2011.04.06 02:50:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: garus banta

Better yet, CCP should allow a mechanism that tags known bot accounts and removes concord protection by perma tagging them with criminal standings.
I say don't ban the accounts at all but instead make them targets in ALL of new eden.
Further add a menu to the eve map which shows current BOTS in space and tags the system as well.
Give us the tools to hunt them down ONE by one and botting will be forever wiped out.
CCP does the tagging we do the body bagging.
Mmm t2 salvage free km and botter tears to good to be true I'm afraid but if only

Lord XSiV
Amarr
Kodar Innovations
Posted - 2011.04.06 03:39:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
"Hey, CCP has flagged me as someone whose subscription fees they'd simply rather do without. I wonder how they'll react if ... I stop sending them subscription fees? Heh."

*does CC chargeback*

"BOOSH! pwnt."





As I wrote: This is CC fraud and not for a second I would recommend that you or anybody else endorse these type of actions. This not like trying to sell a Scorpion named Rattlesnake in Jita. CC Fraud has possibly legal consequences.


Now how exactly would it be fraud?

I am pretty sure that a judge would be more apt to rule that CCP by failing to provide a service as advertised is committing 'fraud' as you define it rather than a consumer trying to protect their rights.

Maybe I should just check...Ah yes the normal response of 'depending on the authority of jurisdiction where the consumer resides' which means that in most civilized societies the answer would be fairly obvious. There is a reason why most governments around the world do have some sort of entity to protect people from corporate greed.

Anyhow, the point was to find out whether CCP was taking action against paying subscribers or just the bottom feeding freeloaders paying with plex. As I stated earlier, I highly doubt they are/would since the chargeback mechanism is well known to both the players and companies in the gaming world. The total cost involved per chargeback (valid or not) in employee time, money and reputation is often significantly higher (often 5-10 times) than the original charge. It makes perfect business sense to avoid wherever possible.

Honestly I couldn't care less whether CCP actually does something to get rid of the individual botters/RMT'ers/etc since they know that the system is inherently flawed. If they were to fix the systemic issues that promote this kind of behaviour then that would be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately that would mean potentially losing a significant portion of their 0.0 playerbase that regularily use automation techniques and I doubt CCP is willing to lose that revenue stream. It would however be a solution to breaking up the powerblock issue.....

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.04.06 04:19:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel
Oh CCP can you give us some data here? Please!

I really want to know roughly how pervasive botting is. If you could tell us 5%, 10% of logged on players? Worse? My imagination tells me it is ~15-20% but I really hope that is pure bunk.


If I could answer that there'd be x% fewer people playing right now.


Fair enough, thanks.

Aiko Zan
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.06 04:24:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV

Now how exactly would it be fraud?

I am pretty sure that a judge would be more apt to rule that CCP by failing to provide a service as advertised is committing 'fraud' as you define it rather than a consumer trying to protect their rights.

Maybe I should just check...Ah yes the normal response of 'depending on the authority of jurisdiction where the consumer resides' which means that in most civilized societies the answer would be fairly obvious. There is a reason why most governments around the world do have some sort of entity to protect people from corporate greed.

Anyhow, the point was to find out whether CCP was taking action against paying subscribers or just the bottom feeding freeloaders paying with plex. As I stated earlier, I highly doubt they are/would since the chargeback mechanism is well known to both the players and companies in the gaming world. The total cost involved per chargeback (valid or not) in employee time, money and reputation is often significantly higher (often 5-10 times) than the original charge. It makes perfect business sense to avoid wherever possible.

Honestly I couldn't care less whether CCP actually does something to get rid of the individual botters/RMT'ers/etc since they know that the system is inherently flawed. If they were to fix the systemic issues that promote this kind of behaviour then that would be a step in the right direction. Unfortunately that would mean potentially losing a significant portion of their 0.0 playerbase that regularily use automation techniques and I doubt CCP is willing to lose that revenue stream. It would however be a solution to breaking up the powerblock issue.....



First, how is it not fraud? Really it is a rhetorical question i am not looking for your rhetoric here.

You agree to play EVE on CCPs terms, if you violate that contract then they ban your account. You then go to your CC company saying you are not receiving what you payed for but happily leave out the part where you violated the contract and the reason for getting your account banned in the first place. Thus committing fraud..

Honestly though, I don't think many, if any, people give a F*** about what you have to say in this thread. Stick to the topic at hand.

Oh and when your account gets banned let us know how you chrageback works out for you.. Because, from my point of view you seem to be squirming like you did, are doing, something that will cause you to get your account banned. To which, you think you found some loop hole that will allow you to recoup some of the money you are about to loose. Move on, you are only making yourself look worse, whether you are right or wrong.


OP, good work!

Olleybear
Minmatar
I R' Carebear
Posted - 2011.04.06 04:27:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV
Said stuff



And now back on topic...

Love the post OP. Very well put together. I think every single player that isn't botting who has read this thread or heard about it from their friends is loving that the botters are starting to get their due.

The 3 strikes of 14 day ban, 30 day, and then permaban seems like a good way to do things. Gives the player the chance to knock it off before CCP loses their subscription.

Keep up the good work OP and CCP.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.04.06 04:39:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
Originally by: Aloe Cloveris
"Hey, CCP has flagged me as someone whose subscription fees they'd simply rather do without. I wonder how they'll react if ... I stop sending them subscription fees? Heh."

*does CC chargeback*

"BOOSH! pwnt."





As I wrote: This is CC fraud and not for a second I would recommend that you or anybody else endorse these type of actions. This not like trying to sell a Scorpion named Rattlesnake in Jita. CC Fraud has possibly legal consequences.


Now how exactly would it be fraud?

I am pretty sure that a judge would be more apt to rule that CCP by failing to provide a service as advertised is committing 'fraud' as you define it rather than a consumer trying to protect their rights.

Maybe I should just check...Ah yes the normal response of 'depending on the authority of jurisdiction where the consumer resides' which means that in most civilized societies the answer would be fairly obvious. There is a reason why most governments around the world do have some sort of entity to protect people from corporate greed.

Anyhow, the point was to find out whether CCP was taking action against paying subscribers or just the bottom feeding freeloaders paying with plex. As I stated earlier, I highly doubt they are/would since the chargeback mechanism is well known to both the players and companies in the gaming world. The total cost involved per chargeback (valid or not) in employee time, money and reputation is often significantly higher (often 5-10 times) than the original charge. It makes perfect business sense to avoid wherever possible.


CCP provides its service as advertised. If you break the EULA, you get banned. They advertise this many times.

I also called my credit card company (merely curious) and they said in this hypothetical situation they would deny the CC as you have violated a contract and the company is following the contract in terms of removal of service.
You do not have the right to breach a contract free of penalties.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.06 04:44:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Henry Haphorn on 06/04/2011 04:44:36
I also believe we should get back on topic here. This whole CC thing is starting to detract from the actual conversation dealing with the scum that is botting.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.04.06 04:55:00 - [147]
 

Besides you wouldn't pay with a credit card anyway if you were botting, hell you don't even need to bot for a plex if you have enough free time to run missions for a few hours each day.

Lord XSiV
Amarr
Kodar Innovations
Posted - 2011.04.06 05:22:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Aiko Zan


First, how is it not fraud? Really it is a rhetorical question i am not looking for your rhetoric here.

You agree to play EVE on CCPs terms, if you violate that contract then they ban your account. You then go to your CC company saying you are not receiving what you payed for but happily leave out the part where you violated the contract and the reason for getting your account banned in the first place. Thus committing fraud..

Honestly though, I don't think many, if any, people give a F*** about what you have to say in this thread. Stick to the topic at hand.

Oh and when your account gets banned let us know how you chrageback works out for you.. Because, from my point of view you seem to be squirming like you did, are doing, something that will cause you to get your account banned. To which, you think you found some loop hole that will allow you to recoup some of the money you are about to loose. Move on, you are only making yourself look worse, whether you are right or wrong.

OP, good work!


and

Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard

CCP provides its service as advertised. If you break the EULA, you get banned. They advertise this many times.

I also called my credit card company (merely curious) and they said in this hypothetical situation they would deny the CC as you have violated a contract and the company is following the contract in terms of removal of service.
You do not have the right to breach a contract free of penalties.



Neither have a clue about contract law which is fairly obvious. First, the so called 'loophole' you reffered to is a protection mechanism. I hihgly doubt the second responder called his credit card company since he mentioned ToS which credit card companies couldn't care less unless it was their own. The only contracts that are legally enforceable in this 'scenario' (if you want to name it something) is that 'between the card holder and credit card company' and the one between CCP (the merchant) and either the credit card processing entity or the credit card companies they have a merchant account with.

The EULA is an 'agreement' not a contract. Contracts require signatures; CCP's EULA does not. CCP expects no one to challenge it and it serves its purpose as a tool to keep people from taking any kind of recourse since the majority of people are ignorant and don't know any better. These so called 'agreements' are refuted regularily; just look it up yourself.

Anyhow continue to be ignorant and act as if you are a poor defenseless consumer. Corporate entities bank on that fact to increase their profits.

And one last question for the Aiko Zan monkey - why would my account be banned for explaining consumer rights? Like seriously are you that stupid? If CCP were to ban a user for posting information that is common knowledge how would the reflect on them? Maybe, just maybe, there is something in their contract with their credit card processor that says something about not taking action to impede consumers rights....

Then again I wouldn't expect you to know that since you obviously don't know what fraud is either.


Echo Mae
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:15:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV
Foolish Yammering


In my business, a customer does a charge back, I make sure they can never use my service again. EVER.

Go right ahead and do what you think is right but if I were CCP and someone did a charge back, their account would be permanently banned, as well as all known accounts associated with that credit card and user. Forever.

Do take note that one of the agreements you click through is any dispute with CCP is to be handled where? Iceland. Have a nice flight. Cupcake.

Internetz Spaceship
Posted - 2011.04.06 07:46:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV
I'm a butthurt botter and this slow burn anti bot operation scares the **** out of me

sweet


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