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DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2011.05.23 15:03:00 - [931]
 

Edited by: DeBingJos on 23/05/2011 15:03:16
Don't forget to join the ingame channel 'bot grief'.

Ganking bots with unknown players is a great way to make new friends!

Edit : SN!P3

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.05.23 16:20:00 - [932]
 

So,

how about those trade bots?

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.23 16:21:00 - [933]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
So,

how about those trade bots?

from my experience there must of been some bannings Wink

Adrian Idaho
Posted - 2011.05.23 16:25:00 - [934]
 

Originally by: DeBingJos
Edited by: DeBingJos on 23/05/2011 15:03:16
Don't forget to join the ingame channel 'bot grief'.

Ganking bots with unknown players is a great way to make new friends!

Confirmed.

You also learn something about high-sec mechanics. For example, did you know that there's
  • CONCORD (duh!)

  • the faction police

  • and the faction navy

  • (and the customs police, but they're not so relevant for our cause)

and that they all behave in different ways and attack in different situations?

Malak Alraheem
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.23 16:47:00 - [935]
 


Quote:
Mon May 23, 2011 8:05 am

got 6 accounts 5 got banned the day after the patch came out for two weeks the one that didnt has a different e-mail address so it seems to me that they look at the e-mail address of the rogue account and ban every character with the same e-mail....
looks like i might make up 6 e-mail accounts to see if it helps


Wasting your time, but you're getting warmer. Go fish.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.05.23 17:19:00 - [936]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
So,

how about those trade bots?

Unfortunately, trade bots can only be stopped by CCP (and guessing who they are from a player standpoint is near impossible, as they cannot be distinguished from someone who is afk most of the time). The plus side... well, they don't generate anything, just pass it around. However, they do influence market prices simply though their buy and sell orders.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.05.24 06:22:00 - [937]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 24/05/2011 06:32:01

not strictly botting-related but relevant nonetheless:

http://www.**********.com/showthread.php?9828-Lolbanned-C-Eve-Client-high-performance-automation

OP success?

(as for the vulnerability mentioned in boatviolence's edit - may be real or may just be a way to get more attention, who knows? the existence of such vulnerabilities would explain several observations of half the fleet's clients crashing simultaneously)

Morgan Polaris
Posted - 2011.05.24 10:20:00 - [938]
 

I've had 30 something toons in industrials going at for a good 12 hours now in Jatate (which has nothing but courier missions). A small selection:

- Anna Ripley
- Becky Lai
- Beth Brigo
- Brigitte Hof
- Eva Blide
- Hagaken Roltard
- Iro Takeshi
- Jason Blide
- Jira Mona
- Mac Drill
- Rob Jenkins
- Russel Cole
- Sabrina Suez

Easy catch if you ask me.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.05.24 10:56:00 - [939]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 24/05/2011 10:58:25
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been reading this with interest. I have a question though. What prevents people reporting botters (espcially with a feature to do that in upcoming incarna) that are totally false/or percieved false. If I want to grief someone, though they may totally legit miners, and I report them, will they get banned automatically? Seems like a mean way to harass the honest. Seems like I can just fly around and report every miner I see not really knowing if they are a botter or not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Everything will be investigated and if you abuse the function you will most likely get banned, just like the use of "report ISK Spammer" on innocent players.



Imho the botter issue HAS to be approached in a full swing, not in the usual CCP "a tiny piece at a time, losing focus on the bigger picture".


1) More awareness and information about botting prohibition

- Botters should not be able to say they weren't aware of XYZ.
- Regular players who are not computer geeks should be able to play without having to learn that software XYZ might be forbidden on their face. Rumors about applications being allowed or not should not exist.
- CCP should try protect their number of subscriptions.

If the client ran a low priority process that detected the launch of forbidden software, it should warn the user and quit.
If it ran "dubious" software (i.e. Logitech G15 software) it should warn the player that it could make him banned if he uses it for macroing.

Players should play the game in peace without the constant worry that something could get them banned out of the blue.
Botters should not play the game at all, not be subject to whatever long period of "spying" by CCP.

I am sure the nastiest would find new unrecognized bots to circumvent the client telling them they are cheating => quit.
But hey they WILL find new unrecognized bots anyway even if the current situation goes on as is.

On the opposite side, "casual" botters realize they get caught and stop botting without even need to be banned.
This spares the ever too few GMs off the burden of weeks long petitions and whatever.

2) Game mechanics HAVE to change.

It's just completely stupid to provide a "report bot" menu with the current game play that is completely bot-like.

Someone please tell me how you can determine with industry grade confidence (done in other MMOs) that the following player is a botter:

1) 1 - 2 ships max.
2) Plays several hours a day.
3) Ships warp to same bookmark, ice mine for like 15 minutes, go empty, repeat.
4) If you contact him, he will reply possibly 1 hour later.


Now, 2) could raise a warning but in the end EvE is a sandbox game, if someone bought and trained for 2 ships he's entitled to mine all day long except for 6-8 hours for sleep.

3) it just the norm. There's nothing fancy about ice mining, roids don't deplete so a warp to the same roid is actually normal.
4) Mining ice is the most AFK thing ever, it's just terrible game mechanics. No one sane of mind will start a 15 minutes cycle and not ALT TAB doing something else (and thus not replying to chats).

To be SURE he's a bot you need to destroy the ship and see if the pod keeps pretending to mine.
IE with the current game mechanics you and CCP have no way to accurately determine if a guy is botting unless you destroy the ship (which is not bad at all, but it is still the ONE way to detect a bot and it should not just the one way).

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.05.24 10:59:00 - [940]
 

Since CCP can't destroy random ships, they need to survey the suspects for who knows how long and even then, they can't have 100% confidence.

This reeks of bad feature design.
In fact ice mining IS equivalent to botting by itself, there's no human interaction needed for 15-20 minutes at all.
I don't even know why people would bot it, since it's already so automated and without interactions.

This has to change, otherwise it will be an uphill battle forever.


Same for trading bots, even if detecting them is somewhat easier since they can be outsmarted in ways they show they are bots.
But still, it's another easily "machinable" gameplay that is just a bad design.

Same for ratting bots. It should not be possible to just know in advance where to warp, how to behave and cover all of 3-4 situations and warp to safe on pre-set conditions.
I also play another 2003 MMO and it NEVER had this kind of bot-friendly design.

EvE not only is too bot friendly, it also makes regular gameplay so like to botting than detecting the true players vs the bots is a chore even for the CCP personnel.


3) The two changes above would also help in the petitioning queues. Having human GMs have to follow hundreds of dubious cases (due to point 2) is surely hurting the response times, both for the banned people and for the other petitioners who see personnel allocated to deal with bans that would otherwise be free to quickly take care of their issues.


clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.05.24 11:43:00 - [941]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha

This has to change, otherwise it will be an uphill battle forever.



If you have followed this thread you would have noticed things are changing.

1. detection methods have/are changed/changing
2. petition process is changing
3. general awareness is changing
4. real player attitude to botters and petitioning them is changing.

agreed, in an ideal environment players shouldn't even be involved in this as the software should be designed in such a way cheating is impossible. But all in all, we are seeing clear progress.

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.05.24 12:44:00 - [942]
 

btw. implant prices are sinking really hard atm. Return of the courier bots? or unbanned unloading their stacks perhaps?

Baljos Arnjak
Posted - 2011.05.24 12:54:00 - [943]
 

Originally by: clixor
btw. implant prices are sinking really hard atm. Return of the courier bots? or unbanned unloading their stacks perhaps?


Actually, I think this is a direct result of the new agent changes. Since all agents pay out like +20 quality agents now, there's a lot more LP being generated. One of my old agents pays like 1.5k LP more than he used to on a max LP mission.

It's probably actually a combination of both.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.05.24 13:27:00 - [944]
 

Liking this thread I am.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.24 14:10:00 - [945]
 

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha


This reeks of bad feature design.
In fact ice mining IS equivalent to botting by itself, there's no human interaction needed for 15-20 minutes at all.
I don't even know why people would bot it, since it's already so automated and without interactions.

This has to change, otherwise it will be an uphill battle forever.


Same for trading bots,....
Same for ratting bots. ...
I also play another 2003 MMO and it NEVER had this kind of bot-friendly design.

EvE not only is too bot friendly, it also makes regular gameplay so like to botting than detecting the true players vs the bots is a chore even for the CCP personnel.





I would like to point out Vaerah does make a point. Out of all the MMO's (that where worth it), this one holds a complex duality; in the fact that it has the hardest learning curve (very content rich) and yet, so easy to do. Never in a game, have I had to lean the mechanics of exhumers, tanking, cap management, and basic ship operation just to be able to point at a rock and watch it for 10 minuets. I do agree that this is a bot friendly environment.

However, simplifying a mundane task (however difficult the path was to get there) is not what we're fired up about. You have to remember that this is also an economic game. The only way, in Eve, to get ahead is to make a ton of money. In a months time, a newbie can have the skills to fly a faction fit Ashimuu, but will have to ground pound it with the rest of us in an Omen until he can afford to drop 1/5 billion on the Muu.

I'm sure we can all remember saving up for that first ship that we where convinced would PWN. And what happened to that ship? It probably got pop'd in Amamake, but saving up for it, grinding away in your profession and finally being able to go out and get that ship is the struggle that makes Eve a community. We're all struggling to out-do each other.

Botters have the unfair advantage of being able to fit out that faction fit Ashimuu and take us normal folk on in our Omens. By not choosing to participate in the struggle, like the rest of us, macro users have removed themselves from our community and appointed themselves self-proclaimed Lords of Eve. If not by actual title, then by actions.

Do some of the game mechanics need upgrading? Yes, I believe they do. Do the macro users have a right to cheat, while the rest of us play by the rules? No!

And that's why there's a community of online nerds so fired up about this.

I'm 5particus
Minmatar
REV0LTING
Posted - 2011.05.24 14:32:00 - [946]
 


The final rooms of most DED complexes are camped 23/7 by hunter bots farming the officer mods.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.05.24 15:41:00 - [947]
 

Quote:
Someone please tell me how you can determine with industry grade confidence (done in other MMOs) that the following player is a botter:
1) 1 - 2 ships max.
2) Plays several hours a day.
3) Ships warp to same bookmark, ice mine for like 15 minutes, go empty, repeat.
4) If you contact him, he will reply possibly 1 hour later.

Actually I'm glad you mentioned this.

First off, I personally would watch them for at least a week, trying to contact them (just chatting messages, EVE related stuff, but never once mentioning botting). If they continue with the same pattern, perfectly, at the same time each day, thats highly suspicious. If they never once contact me (even to just say go away lol), thats even more suspicious. But the key is in all that time, do they never go idle for a bit (player loses track of time/finds something interesting and forgets he's mining).
Another good tell is when the ice roid depletes. Do they switch to a new roid near immediately, or is there the wait for the 10 minutes or so.
This is the best point to start bumping them. If they truly are afk and the ships does nothing, no harm done. If it starts mining, they must either be a bot or at the computer. Using a fast BS to bump them will easily get them out of range of the ice they were mining.
If they continue trying to fly back to that one roid for say, 2 minutes, then back off and let the ship fly back (this is to see if they "anchored" their ship at the bookmark, I do that when afk). If once in range the miners start up again, it is rather safe to assume that it is a bot at the wheel (or a really stupid person who tried for a minute to get back to the roid), at which point, report them to CCP with a list of your tests and their suspicious behaviors.
The key to this test is that you bump them before the switch to the next roid. That way, if a real person is there, they will see it and have some reaction.

Works for asteroid belts too... with modifications to the cycle time and fill time.

Komen
Gallente
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.05.24 15:48:00 - [948]
 

Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Quote:
Someone please tell me how you can determine with industry grade confidence (done in other MMOs) that the following player is a botter:
1) 1 - 2 ships max.
2) Plays several hours a day.
3) Ships warp to same bookmark, ice mine for like 15 minutes, go empty, repeat.
4) If you contact him, he will reply possibly 1 hour later.

Actually I'm glad you mentioned this.

First off, I personally would watch them for at least a week, trying to contact them (just chatting messages, EVE related stuff, but never once mentioning botting). If they continue with the same pattern, perfectly, at the same time each day, thats highly suspicious. If they never once contact me (even to just say go away lol), thats even more suspicious. But the key is in all that time, do they never go idle for a bit (player loses track of time/finds something interesting and forgets he's mining).
Another good tell is when the ice roid depletes. Do they switch to a new roid near immediately, or is there the wait for the 10 minutes or so.
This is the best point to start bumping them. If they truly are afk and the ships does nothing, no harm done. If it starts mining, they must either be a bot or at the computer. Using a fast BS to bump them will easily get them out of range of the ice they were mining.
If they continue trying to fly back to that one roid for say, 2 minutes, then back off and let the ship fly back (this is to see if they "anchored" their ship at the bookmark, I do that when afk). If once in range the miners start up again, it is rather safe to assume that it is a bot at the wheel (or a really stupid person who tried for a minute to get back to the roid), at which point, report them to CCP with a list of your tests and their suspicious behaviors.
The key to this test is that you bump them before the switch to the next roid. That way, if a real person is there, they will see it and have some reaction.

Works for asteroid belts too... with modifications to the cycle time and fill time.


I hate to be nitpicky but - ice roids never deplete man. Otherwise, yes, long-term observation is a decent method of player-determination that another char is possibly botting.

Solomunio Kzenig
Amarr
Indicium Technologies
Hephaestus Forge Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.24 16:11:00 - [949]
 

I say nuke 'em from orbit, only way to be sure.

Sadayiel
Caldari
Inner Conflict
Posted - 2011.05.24 21:11:00 - [950]
 

Bumping to 1st page for anti-botters justice!!!

The sad thing about the botters it's not they do it (ignorance on rules so they can get some easy isk) as some can just learn from mistakes. But when you read the whines and complains of botters with 5x or 6x accounts makes me die a bit inside and makes me feel pity for them since it's a clear way to notice those ppl failed at understand the core mechanics of EVE

Also like to point that some programs can recognize g15 programs as bot or hacking (happened me once in a bf2 punkbuster protected servers) but since CCP recognized they do use and it is legal this keyboard i think they will just know the program to avoid ban due it, same for g13 or n52 nostromo users.

Xylengra
Posted - 2011.05.24 21:32:00 - [951]
 

Just checking in, with a first-hand observation from the TM forums.

Owner and bot-distributor is actively deleting some or all posts reporting bans by users. He has always been a heavy-handed moderator of his own forums, and takes a particularly nasty tack when replying to users who have questions or problems with his macro.

On the other hand, he has recently dressed up his bot sales front page, so I guess sales have been suffering.

Alicia Melchiottt
Posted - 2011.05.24 23:18:00 - [952]
 

What?! You mean I can actually afford implants now?! This is MADNESS!!

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.05.25 03:03:00 - [953]
 

Originally by: Komen
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
Quote:
Someone please tell me how you can determine with industry grade confidence (done in other MMOs) that the following player is a botter:
1) 1 - 2 ships max.
2) Plays several hours a day.
3) Ships warp to same bookmark, ice mine for like 15 minutes, go empty, repeat.
4) If you contact him, he will reply possibly 1 hour later.

Actually I'm glad you mentioned this.

First off, I personally would watch them for at least a week, trying to contact them (just chatting messages, EVE related stuff, but never once mentioning botting). If they continue with the same pattern, perfectly, at the same time each day, thats highly suspicious. If they never once contact me (even to just say go away lol), thats even more suspicious. But the key is in all that time, do they never go idle for a bit (player loses track of time/finds something interesting and forgets he's mining).
Another good tell is when the ice roid depletes. Do they switch to a new roid near immediately, or is there the wait for the 10 minutes or so.
This is the best point to start bumping them. If they truly are afk and the ships does nothing, no harm done. If it starts mining, they must either be a bot or at the computer. Using a fast BS to bump them will easily get them out of range of the ice they were mining.
If they continue trying to fly back to that one roid for say, 2 minutes, then back off and let the ship fly back (this is to see if they "anchored" their ship at the bookmark, I do that when afk). If once in range the miners start up again, it is rather safe to assume that it is a bot at the wheel (or a really stupid person who tried for a minute to get back to the roid), at which point, report them to CCP with a list of your tests and their suspicious behaviors.
The key to this test is that you bump them before the switch to the next roid. That way, if a real person is there, they will see it and have some reaction.

Works for asteroid belts too... with modifications to the cycle time and fill time.


I hate to be nitpicky but - ice roids never deplete man. Otherwise, yes, long-term observation is a decent method of player-determination that another char is possibly botting.

Crap... well, haven;t ice mined long enough to actually find that out.

Well then, back to the drawing board.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.25 21:18:00 - [954]
 

Originally by: Xylengra
Just checking in, with a first-hand observation from the TM forums.

Owner and bot-distributor is actively deleting some or all posts reporting bans by users. He has always been a heavy-handed moderator of his own forums, and takes a particularly nasty tack when replying to users who have questions or problems with his macro.

On the other hand, he has recently dressed up his bot sales front page, so I guess sales have been suffering.


HAHA that is true, it does look nicer :)

and I can completely verify that the TM owner doesn't let alot of posts fly. I've tried to post a few fake "Has anyone been banned" threads with my account I made there (mmwhhaahaha) and he has never approved them.

TM is next on CCP's "list" me thinks!! YARRRR!!

Camalll
Posted - 2011.05.25 22:06:00 - [955]
 

if ccp would remove local in 0.0, 99% of all ratting bots would be destroyed in a few days...

ps: join "bot grief" channel!


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.05.25 23:17:00 - [956]
 

Originally by: Camalll
if ccp would remove local in 0.0, 99% of all ratting bots would be destroyed in a few days...

ps: join "bot grief" channel!




Unfortunately, bots can use d-scan, and react to it better and faster than a player. All removing local will do is move more players out of 0.0, leaving it to the bots.

Tarikan
Minmatar
Hardcore p0wnography
Posted - 2011.05.26 02:24:00 - [957]
 





Quote:
Unfortunately, bots can use d-scan, and react to it better and faster than a player. All removing local will do is move more players out of 0.0, leaving it to the bots.


i would agree here. I myself, as an average Eve player would not pay attention as well as a bot and therefore you'd probably be getting me more often then the bots you wish to target.

Tamblyn Mironne
Posted - 2011.05.26 02:53:00 - [958]
 

Originally by: Tarikan




Quote:
Unfortunately, bots can use d-scan, and react to it better and faster than a player. All removing local will do is move more players out of 0.0, leaving it to the bots.


i would agree here. I myself, as an average Eve player would not pay attention as well as a bot and therefore you'd probably be getting me more often then the bots you wish to target.




Well, actually, he wants to target you too... : )

CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.05.26 03:31:00 - [959]
 

Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 26/05/2011 03:31:38
Hey guys, I haven't had time to catch up but I wanted to let you know that I'm working on a blog that should go out in the next week or so and I've included some numbers that I think do a bit to show our progress and justify some of the decisions we've made so far. I also have some pretty exciting additional stuff to talk about. I'll let you know when I have a definite publication date.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.26 03:36:00 - [960]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Hey guys, I haven't had time to catch up but I wanted to let you know that I'm working on a blog that should go out in the next week or so and I've included some numbers that I think do a bit to show our progress and justify some of the decisions we've made so far. I also have some pretty exciting additional stuff to talk about. I'll let you know when I have a definite publication date.

Will this include the number of petitions and escalations by the dirty botters? That would make some good pron.

And how much ISK you guys confiscated... *drools*


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