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sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:47:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart
It does raise an important point though. If activities like Mining were more dynamic, interactive, and engaging, would it make it unbottable? Also, if the activity was fun and enjoyable, would people bot in the first place?

I'm sure some still will. Plenty of lazy types out there.


I'm sure it would make it harder it bot but may reduxe the honest miners down to nothing unless it made so much isk lots swicthed.

People don't bot because they don't find mining fun, they do it because they want toc heat and get free isk for nothing.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:58:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 04/04/2011 21:59:34

I'd like to inject a few comments here,

Originally by: Elanor Vega
I am concerned about this:

...... that only fiew accounts of fiew thousands is banned...
and i am afraid that all will remain on that...


I was debating on wither or not I should post that, but I'm really taking my stab at being objective here and giving out fare viewpoints.
Keep heart and objective here. Try to look at the whole thing, keep in mind CCP is approaching it with a 'slow burn' mentality. Meaning that slow but steady will win this race. Every macro'er who gets banned knows why. These are just the ones that have come out to discuss/fight it.

As mentioned above, the goal here isn't to ban everyone..it's to stop the macros.

Originally by: Barakkus

I think the idea is to tell the player to not bot anymore, not make them quit immediately.


I agree. These 14 day bannings are a slap on the wrist and a message to strighten up and play nice. This is the equivelant of sitting a kid in timeout, as apposed to banning him from the playground for being a bully.

Originally by: Soma Khan
glutting the market with enormous amounts of isk from macroing bounty rats is infinitely worse for eve economy. that macro miner (?) is being a pompous ass


As I stated, when you sit a kid on timeout, they get mad and scream at you...but hopfully they learn their lesson.

In further responce to you, Soma Khan, I have a theory.

I would like to point something out that I kinda missed, or perhaps hasn't been noted enough yet.

1) One of the 'tears' posts that I copied here was a guy saying that he wasn't using a macro miner...he was using a macro market bot. And he got banned. (keep that in mind while I elobrate on a related topic)

2) One of the ways the macro'rs are fighting this, is by altering the code to make 'randome' mouse clicks so as to appear to a monitoring program that a person is behind the wheel and not a bot.

Now, what does 1 + 2 mean? That CCP isn't looking at pattern recognition or mouse clicks to determin if it's a bot. Think about the signifigance here. They are looking for the programs that ARE the bots. This could be a all-in-one fix. If they can spot a macro miner, and a macro market bot, who's saying they hanv't spotted macro ratters? I have a feeling that they have been banned as well.

I beleive I've made a small error in only posting about miners, it just hit me that I have only checked out macro mining sites and not the ratters. I do however, know what is the most popular ratting bot online, and I'll check it out and get back to you guys.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.04 22:02:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud

Now, what does 1 + 2 mean? That CCP isn't looking at pattern recognition or mouse clicks to determin if it's a bot. Think about the signifigance here. They are looking for the programs that ARE the bots. This could be a all-in-one fix. If they can spot a macro miner, and a macro market bot, who's saying they hanv't spotted macro ratters? I have a feeling that they have been banned as well.


They are going to be putting in some code to detect hooking into directx and the eve process itself, if it's not partially there already. They do look at patterns of usage too...but hooking into directx and the process is going to tip them off faster...and if you've never run the logserver.exe, it shows all mouse movements and key presses within the client, so I'm sure there's a bit of analyzing that information going on too.

Pserad Pserad
Posted - 2011.04.04 23:00:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 04/04/2011 23:03:13
I am not condoning the botters, but I'm betting that many of the people who will be banned as casual bots aren't doing it to sell ISK, they are just trying to supplement income for their main accounts. Coming down hard on these enthusiastic players, who may pay to run 2 or more accounts is going to start hurting CCP's wallet when they drive those players away.

I'm also concerned that overzealous punishment of suspected botters is going to drive away innocent miners. I can't think of how many times I've setup 2 or 3 computers for some long-term mining in a quiet spot while I worked, and don't bother checking local or replying to convos for hours at a time. It's easy, boring as hell, and doesn't require much attention as I'm taking care of business. I can see how some people would assume I was botting and probably petitioned, and if I ended up getting a 14 day ban without any chance to plead my case or defend myself, I would certain cancel all 6 of my accounts. It's a slippery slope, and CCP needs to make sure they know where the line is.

CCP Sreegs

Posted - 2011.04.04 23:38:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



We're aware that people think this is somehow going to benefit them.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.04 23:53:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



We're aware that people think this is somehow going to benefit them.


Ok, Awesome...Awareness is good. can you eloberate at all as to any form of action or plan to deal with said banned-charachter recyclers?

yumike
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:09:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: yumike on 05/04/2011 00:09:35
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



We're aware that people think this is somehow going to benefit them.


Ok, Awesome...Awareness is good. can you eloberate at all as to any form of action or plan to deal with said banned-charachter recyclers?


Considering it isn't the character that gets banned, its the account & player.. Character bazaar doesn't really have a tangible effect.
I imagine if they can link account 1 + account 2 together, They both go up the penalty volcano together..
Say I get banned for having two macros running, I decide to liquidate one and push on with a new one that i picked up off char bazaar.. Even if I move up and get banned again, the account will still be on second warning.

The obvious 'solution' would be to make a new account when I pick up that new character, Okay fine.. but the only way is to make it skip the first tier of penalty to bring it in line with my main.

You'll note on those forums that they mention even their legitimate accounts were banned for 14days as well.

They are punishing the player/account holder, Not the character (Which, is meaningless to punish because anyone can pick up a new one via the bazaar)

edit:: darn typos sneak themselves in.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:12:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: NinjaSpud on 05/04/2011 00:17:52
Edited by: NinjaSpud on 05/04/2011 00:15:28

EDIT: I have moved this post to the 'front page' of this forum so people can have an up-to-date easy to read posting...


In other news, I have been able to fallow up on that 'popular macro ratting' program. Unfortunitaly I don't have the best news so far to report. A deep dig into their forums, and I eventualy found a poll that was recently taken.

Have you been banned? (Voting closes: April 10, 2011, 06:30:00 PM)
Yes - botting 23/7 - 4 (4.2%)
Yes - bot less than 23/7 - 3 (3.1%)
No - botting 23/7 - 14 (14.6%)
No - bot less than 23/7 - 75 (78.1%)

Total Voters: 96

voters that had been banned claimed that it was due to petittions from other players that caught them ratting vs being 'discovered by ccp'


We'll see how the slow burn method will work for the ratters as well.

In a related case, I re-visited "website A" and "website B" mentioned above. I kinda stumbled on a few facts taken from those websites that seemed interesting enough to post here.

Specifically, I found several threads regarding how much people where makeing a day using their macro. I learned, that the average high sec macro miner, running only 1 bot (alot of people where running multiple) could pull in roughly 50-100 mill isk a day, depending on how they sold their high sec minerals.

Null sec miners where makeing almost 200mill a day, due to the fact that they could harvest null sec grav sites. there where a few threads complaining about losing their hulks to raiders while macroing in null sec, but the rewards outweighed the risks (was the general feeling)

this was consistant on both "Website A" and "Website B" sites. I'd like to note, that the advertisments to said websites claimed up to 50 - 250 mill/hour. however I was unable to verrify this via user comments.

In the macro ratter thread, (the one that I got that poll from)...they had a 'how much do you make' topic as well. Some of the users claimed with a good setup, a proper fit ship, and a secure 0.0 system, they where pulling in 600mill an hour. The screenshot of a players wallet that read 12 billion isk confirmed that.

Are we targeting the right group when we target macro miners? Apparently a good ratter can make in an hour what a miner can make in 2-3 days.

Assuming the above poll is accurate...The battle front looks in favor of the macro ratters right now. However, it is early into 'the war'. Let's hope CCP's slow burn will catch up with the ratters.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:18:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud

voters that had been banned claimed that it was due to petittions from other players that caught them ratting vs being 'discovered by ccp'




I think they will still appreciate people helping pinpointing the botters via reporting methods to make their jobs a bit easier than trying to find them on their own :)

Lord XSiV
Amarr
Kodar Innovations
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:28:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Pserad Pserad
Edited by: Pserad Pserad on 04/04/2011 23:03:13
I am not condoning the botters, but I'm betting that many of the people who will be banned as casual bots aren't doing it to sell ISK, they are just trying to supplement income for their main accounts. Coming down hard on these enthusiastic players, who may pay to run 2 or more accounts is going to start hurting CCP's wallet when they drive those players away.

I'm also concerned that overzealous punishment of suspected botters is going to drive away innocent miners. I can't think of how many times I've setup 2 or 3 computers for some long-term mining in a quiet spot while I worked, and don't bother checking local or replying to convos for hours at a time. It's easy, boring as hell, and doesn't require much attention as I'm taking care of business. I can see how some people would assume I was botting and probably petitioned, and if I ended up getting a 14 day ban without any chance to plead my case or defend myself, I would certain cancel all 6 of my accounts. It's a slippery slope, and CCP needs to make sure they know where the line is.


Just make sure you pay with a credit card - if banned then perform your rightfully given chargeback to be refunded the funds for failure of CCP to provide services.

Happens all the time in the entertainment industry and, especially in particular, online gaming.

And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels, contact your credit card company yourself and ask them about how to deal with merchants who fail to provide services. Regardless of what CCP says, or any other merchant for that matter, if they fail to provide exactly what they are selling to the satisfaction of the customer then the customer is entitled to a refund.

It's the beauty of the credit system; the customer is always right especially these days. The credit card companies are more interested in keeping the card holders rather than the merchants seeing as it is the card holder they make more money off of. No merchant is going to risk losing their ability to accept credit cards online as that would be suicide.

Also, with how the chargeback system is set up the more chargebacks a merchant has filed against them, the higher their processing fees will be. Most likely CCP is only testing the waters out here with plex botters and not real paying customers so the risk is relatively low as plex players have no recourse. Hence the reasoning to protect yourself by using a credit card to pay for your time. Ninja, you may want to add that as a statistic to find out - how many banned pay via plex.


Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:31:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



We're aware that people think this is somehow going to benefit them.


I can see two ways it could benefit them

1) Once banned, they create a new account and essentially sell the character to themselves. This saves the training time needed before botting can begin anew.

2) The botter maintains several accounts each in various phases of this life cycle:

A new account is started, a character creasted.
The account is relatively inactive, with just training going on.
Once trained, the account is used to bot until caught.
Once caught, the botter sells off the character to get as much out of the account as possible.
The account is closed.

What to do about both: Catch the botter fast, making the entire process unprofitable.

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:35:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Rasz Lin on 05/04/2011 00:40:03
Originally by: yumike

Considering it isn't the character that gets banned, its the account & player.. Character bazaar doesn't really have a tangible effect.


selling hulk pilot/mission runner for 4-10bil and then laundering money to a new fresh account doesnt benefit the botter?

Baraka Obama
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:40:00 - [43]
 

Thanks for taking the time to investigate and update us on the issue.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:44:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV

And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels



Epic fail. The EULA is a legally enforcable contract...doh!

Jonathon Silence
Thorny Rose Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.05 01:19:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: CCP Sreegs
Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Problem is a lot of the banned accounts get recycled through the Character Bazaar from what i've read on botter forums.
CCP need to start monitoring character transfers for recent bans.



We're aware that people think this is somehow going to benefit them.


Ban's would be placed against the Account (not the Character). If the botter thought that the character was becoming too 'hot' and decied to sell the Character (you can not sell your account) then the new owner would get the Character and assuming they themselves did not bot then all would be good. If they did bot them I am sure CCP would see the previous history of botting and have some policy in place to rapidly deal with the account.

There would eb a loop hole here in that if having a clean account means that a character with a previous botting history could transer and effectively reset the 3 strike system to 0.


yumike
Posted - 2011.04.05 01:19:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Rasz Lin
Edited by: Rasz Lin on 05/04/2011 00:40:03
Originally by: yumike

Considering it isn't the character that gets banned, its the account & player.. Character bazaar doesn't really have a tangible effect.


selling hulk pilot/mission runner for 4-10bil and then laundering money to a new fresh account doesnt benefit the botter?



and I quote:
Quote:
You'll note on those forums that they mention even their legitimate accounts were banned for 14days as well.

They are punishing the player/account holder

Is it possible some will slip through? Maybe. Regardless it seems they have the right idea.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.05 02:20:00 - [47]
 

Talk about excellent journalism. It's nice to know that we have someone on the inside of the botting community reporting these details to us.

Quote:
"Mining is stupid and boring, macro miners exists because CCP built a flawed game. **** it, if they want to ban the only REAL thing that's keeping the game going, I'm just gonna delete my **** and move on."


If that botter left Eve for real, then good riddance.

X Dead
Posted - 2011.04.05 02:24:00 - [48]
 

Have another 2c to add here at the risk of divulging too much. Any "bad" behavior that creates a transferable/tradable item or "taints" an existing one requires a tracing mechanism to be able to enforce any reduction in the bad behavior. This "tainting" takes place in the real world (e.g. "drug money" and "conflict diamonds") and means to avoid it are everywhere - with cash it is called money laundering (hence anti-money laundering legislation and "certified" diamonds).

There will need to be a means to trace and correlate characters and accounts (possibly using various meta-data such as payment methods, host fingerprinting, and such) otherwise you can just cycle characters so quickly that they can't be behavior correlated (compare this to fast-flux domains in botnets) or new accounts can be generated to do something similar. Given the cost to replace either characters or accounts is rather low compared to the current revenue per "churn" the defensive goal is to reduce the revenue per cycle. This in turn generally equates to a "detect early, penalize hard" strategy (meaning less revenue per cost for perpetrators).

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.04.05 02:42:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 05/04/2011 02:54:20
Edited by: Chesty McJubblies on 05/04/2011 02:46:41
Originally by: NinjaSpud
Are we targeting the right group when we target macro miners? Apparently a good ratter can make in an hour what a miner can make in 2-3 days.


I think they high sec miners are just easier to weed out. The real culprits, imo, are the 0.0 ratters. They're the ones making the serious coin. They're the ones doing the most RMT. They're the ones funding vast amounts of supercaps whilst in bed, at work, knobbing etc. Wait, maybe not knobbing.

Anyway, I've made an AFK cloaker. If anyone wants to evemail me, I'd like to hook up and find out a good place to camp whilst I'm at work, or in bed. I've tried looking at dotlan, but the thought of flying about through all those systems is tedious. Gimme a system name, and I'll afk it all day. o_O

Originally by: Jon Taggart
Also, if the activity was fun and enjoyable, would people bot in the first place?


I think they would. After all, free isk is free isk. Also in the forum I was reading today, they were planning endlessly petitioning bans to clog up the system. Outright denying the use of macros, and just overloading the petition system.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.04.05 02:42:00 - [50]
 

Quote:
And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels, contact your credit card company yourself and ask them about how to deal with merchants who fail to provide services. Regardless of what CCP says, or any other merchant for that matter, if they fail to provide exactly what they are selling to the satisfaction of the customer then the customer is entitled to a refund.

The EULA is an enforceable contract. You breach that contract, and thus you forfeit any payment made. That is how the credit card companies will see it.

Trinity Faetal
Gallente
Little Garden
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:09:00 - [51]
 

We should stock up on cheap trit/pye while we can ? because surely if the bans are working we will see a depletion of stocks ?

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:32:00 - [52]
 

when you xfer a character, it has to have zerp isk, so I am not sure how that will help the botters.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:51:00 - [53]
 

Quote:
"I took a break from mining for several days after the security presentation during fanfest. I mined the "normal" way for several hours each day, did PI, and acted like a normal player. I tested by mining for 3 hours one night, during my normal play window. I got a 14 day ban the next day. I would be careful guys, the point of doing a "slow boil" is to fine tune the detection methods they're using to minimize the false positives. My expectation is as they fine tune the process, they will become more aggressive in banning accounts. In the meantime, it's been fun, but I've got enough of a bankroll to make isk on trading and industry. I'll stop while I'm ahead."


CCP security team alt detected. Rolling Eyes

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:53:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV


And before you get all giddy happy about some bs EULA that only has the authority in a domain that runs a bunch of pixels, contact your credit card company yourself and ask them about how to deal with merchants who fail to provide services. Regardless of what CCP says, or any other merchant for that matter, if they fail to provide exactly what they are selling to the satisfaction of the customer then the customer is entitled to a refund.




I'm tempted to call your post a troll, mr XSiV.

Modern day network ownership these days refers to both the physical items (servers pc's etc) and electronic data...you're BS "Pixels" belong to CCP. It's theirs, not yours. You're renting it, therefore you play by their rules.

And to be honest, suggesting methods to fight back after you've been banned (getting your credit card to reject the payment) is just bad manners in a thread dedicated to reporting bot banns.

To be honest, the tone you set in that post infers that you're trying to tell the rest of us "if ccp bans me, ill fight back by pulling my money". Coupled with you calling the EULA "BS", it would seem that you are indicating that you're trying to justify using a bot, and therefore fighting for them. What you're not doing is setting a tone of "Take responsibility for being banned for cheating."

If you support bots, that's ok. Say it, and make your argument. Don't try to woo others opinions by using cheap tactics like undermining CCP's EULA, and threats to hit them where it hurts (aka, your monthly payment).

Lord XSiV
Amarr
Kodar Innovations
Posted - 2011.04.05 06:05:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud


I'm tempted to call your post a troll, mr XSiV.

Modern day network ownership these days refers to both the physical items (servers pc's etc) and electronic data...you're BS "Pixels" belong to CCP. It's theirs, not yours. You're renting it, therefore you play by their rules.

And to be honest, suggesting methods to fight back after you've been banned (getting your credit card to reject the payment) is just bad manners in a thread dedicated to reporting bot banns.

To be honest, the tone you set in that post infers that you're trying to tell the rest of us "if ccp bans me, ill fight back by pulling my money". Coupled with you calling the EULA "BS", it would seem that you are indicating that you're trying to justify using a bot, and therefore fighting for them. What you're not doing is setting a tone of "Take responsibility for being banned for cheating."

If you support bots, that's ok. Say it, and make your argument. Don't try to woo others opinions by using cheap tactics like undermining CCP's EULA, and threats to hit them where it hurts (aka, your monthly payment).


Since you obviously have absolutely no clue when it comes to credit card entities, their policies or practices, I refer you to the part where I said call your credit card company. In fact I will give you some help - ask them to explain what a 'chargeback' is....

The EULA's authority only extends to that of which CCP has authority. That constitutes their 'service' of providing a game, not running a monetary infrastructure for which the credit card companies do. It is the credit card companies' policies and practices that are dominant when their services are used. This is why CCP has to either use a credit card processor or hold a merchant account with each of the credit card companies they accept. CCP abides by the credit card companies' rules, not the ficticious ones CCPs makes up for their ficticious world. You nupties are just too naive to even question it as you take everything CCP says as factual. Guess what, its not.

I would never dispute that they didn't have the authority to remove anyone for any reason from the game, that part is obvious. The dispute however is when they think they can steal a person's money just because that person may or may not break some rule that they think is some sort of law. It is quite simple, if a merchant sells someone a product or service and fails to deliver that product or services as advertised to the satisfaction of the credit card holder, the credit card company will permit the holder to file for a chargeback. If this protection mechanism wasn't in place then there is nothing stopping CCP (or any other merchant for that matter) for fraudulently billing their customers as they could say 'well they agreed to it in the clicky box/button they pressed on an agreement we have know way of knowing that they read'.....

You can disagree all you want but it is irrelevant what you think. If you want to be an ignorant consumer like the majority out there and have no clue as to your consumer rights then so be it. To quote the typical Eve forumist 'your tears are sweet'.

It isn't like this is the first (or last) time this has been brought up, or that CCP has never 'experienced' a chargeback before. And they most certainly are aware of the mechnanism as all merchants have to sign an agreement saying they understand the terms and conditions of the merchant account or the agreement with the credit card processor. That is why I suggested that you should poll to see how many of those banned pay their accounts with plexes rather than with a credit card.

Personal attack removed. Navigator.


Kristina Vanszar
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.05 06:19:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV

Since you obviously have absolutely no clue when it comes to credit card entities, their policies or practices, I refer you to the part where I said call your credit card company. In fact I will give you some help - ask them to explain what a 'chargeback' is....

The EULA's authority only extends to that of which CCP has authority. That constitutes their 'service' of providing a game, not running a monetary infrastructure for which the credit card companies do. It is the credit card companies' policies and practices that are dominant when their services are used. This is why CCP has to either use a credit card processor or hold a merchant account with each of the credit card companies they accept. CCP abides by the credit card companies' rules, not the ficticious ones CCPs makes up for their ficticious world. You nupties are just too naive to even question it as you take everything CCP says as factual. Guess what, its not.

I would never dispute that they didn't have the authority to remove anyone for any reason from the game, that part is obvious. The dispute however is when they think they can steal a person's money just because that person may or may not break some rule that they think is some sort of law. It is quite simple, if a merchant sells someone a product or service and fails to deliver that product or services as advertised to the satisfaction of the credit card holder, the credit card company will permit the holder to file for a chargeback. If this protection mechanism wasn't in place then there is nothing stopping CCP (or any other merchant for that matter) for fraudulently billing their customers as they could say 'well they agreed to it in the clicky box/button they pressed on an agreement we have know way of knowing that they read'.....

You can disagree all you want but it is irrelevant what you think. If you want to be an ignorant consumer like the majority out there and have no clue as to your consumer rights then so be it. To quote the typical Eve forumist 'your tears are sweet'.

It isn't like this is the first (or last) time this has been brought up, or that CCP has never 'experienced' a chargeback before. And they most certainly are aware of the mechnanism as all merchants have to sign an agreement saying they understand the terms and conditions of the merchant account or the agreement with the credit card processor. That is why I suggested that you should poll to see how many of those banned pay their accounts with plexes rather than with a credit card. Really it is a quite simple task that even a creton such as yourself could accomplish.




Sir you are an idiot...
You have accepted a contract with CCP, the terms of service,
where you have digitally signed that CCP is allowed to cancel your subscription for abuse and so on, without payback!

When you buy a car, and you crash it into a wall, you can't go to the car dealer and say "Hey i want a new one, i had guarantee on the car 3 years"

Are you even aware that boting is basically Hacking,
so they could charge you legal and aks for reimbursment,
becouse of the risk that code has become public, which is their property!!!
Are you that stupid or?????

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.04.05 06:27:00 - [57]
 

By googling quotes from websites A and B I see those are just macromining programs, I'd be more interested to see tears of ratting/anom/mission bot usersWink

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.05 06:46:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV
Since you obviously have absolutely no clue when it comes to credit card entities, their policies or practices, I refer you to the part where I said call your credit card company. In fact I will give you some help - ask them to explain what a 'chargeback' is....


Can you chargeback a subscription service after the service has been provided?

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.04.05 07:06:00 - [59]
 

getting a little off topic here. I want to see more botter tears, they are WAAAAAAAAAY sweeter than carebear tears.

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.04.05 07:28:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Lord XSiV


Since you obviously have absolutely no clue when it comes to credit card entities....blah blah blah blah....even a creton such as yourself could accomplish.




Hahahaha...creton.

So let's recap. I report on bots being banned. You respond with ways for those banned to not lose money. Sure it's their right as a credit card customer...but you're missing the point that they got banned for macro'ing. (o and Pserad Pserad, from what I've discovered, using multiple accounts will get you banned only if you're using a macro with one of them)

I correct your understanding on property rights on CCPs network. I dare you to go head to head on me on this one. I'm a network engineer for the United States Federal Government, I know my **** when it comes to network ownership. Regardless of what think you know or understand...these pixels belong to CCP.

You dispute CCP having the authority on their network, with their program to ban people violating their contract. Even when it says explicitly "You may not use macros" in the EULA. You can't sign a contract that specifically says "don't do this", then violate those agreements, and expect nothing to happen....that's kinda the whole point of contracts and EULA's.

I know what a chargeback is, no where in my post did I say anything about how credit cards work. I don't know where you are getting the notion that I am saying you can't get a backcharge from CCP. I have no doubt you could with little effort...but once again you missed the point so I'll bold it here: Don't use macros and you wont get banned

So, you completely ignore what I say, you make up ideas that I supposedly threw at you, and flame my thread with insults towards me. And then you call me the dumb one? I agree with the one that called you stupid, you're making yourself look like an @$$.

Do not post in my thread anymore unless you actually have something worth contributing, on topic. We're not talking about credit card chargebacks, congratulations on your knowledge, we're all proud of you. We're talking about the user requested, ban-hammer on the Eve macro community.


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