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blankseplocked [Proposal] Fix Black Ops
 
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BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.03 15:25:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:26:10
Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:26:00
Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:25:03
Fix them.

Edit:

This thread is more about (re)raising awareness of how bad blops are

i dont care if you support it or not, but god damnit CCP, this ****s been on the agenda long enough, it cant possibly be so hard to change a ship around a bit can it (read: fix it properly, not some crappy half-fix that lets you get away with shoving it to the back of the line)?

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:17:00 - [2]
 

good topic

too bad no content.

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:28:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 03/04/2011 16:30:06
its not my job to come up with ideas on how to fix ****, that's CCP's job

everyone knows that black ops are ****, so my proposal stands, fix them.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.04.03 18:29:00 - [4]
 

Well, it's certainly not a fitting problem; as they seem, mostly, to have decent DPS/tank capability. They also don't have a targeting delay, after cloaking; and, they have sizeable drone bays.

Here's what I see, as broken:

EVElopedia lists them as having 5000s reactivation delay for cloaking? EFT doesn't represent this.

They can't use Covert Op's cloaks; requiring a velocity modifier when cloaked? - This starts out, on the pathetic side; and moves to the rediculous. It's also a nonsense mechanic. Just remove the effect of velocity, from the cloak; so the ship velocity, is per pilot skill.

2 ly Jump Range? - That's pretty limited. Make it 3.

The rest can be handled in a full rebalance; if it ever happens.

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.04.03 18:53:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: King Rothgar on 03/04/2011 18:53:23
Cassus Temon doesn't know how to fit a ship I think. Both the tank and dps on all the blackops are greatly inferior to their t1 counterparts when comparably fit. This is due to a significant reduction in their base HP, lack of a significant t2 resist bonus, loss of the third rig slot (all t2 is like that of course) and loss of turret/missile hardpoints. That said, I agree this thread lacks content. The purpose of assembly hall is create proposed changes, "fix them" is not a proposal.Rolling Eyes

Angst IronShard
Minmatar
Sense of Serendipity
Echoes of Nowhere
Posted - 2011.04.03 19:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Angst IronShard on 03/04/2011 19:06:40
Black Ops really need a boost, come on CSM guyz !

edit: The blackops Boost was in only one candidat's program and he wasn't elected :/

o7

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.03 20:00:00 - [7]
 

Tbh, Black Ops don't need a boost. Stupid people just need to learn how to fly them properly Confused

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.04.03 20:37:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
Tbh, Black Ops don't need a boost. Stupid people just need to learn how to fly them properly Confused


They really could use a bit of extra jump/bridge range, as well as bigger fuel bays.

Kelanoein
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.04.03 22:30:00 - [9]
 

The black Op's isn't supposed to have better DPS/Tank, than it's T1 counterpart. It already has cloak, higher agility and velocity; and can decloak, and immediately lock up a target. It also has better Scan Res, than a T1.

For reference, the Widow can get an 8s align time, 73K shield tank, and 33 points of ECM; while being Cap stable, and having the ability to dish out 809 DPS with T2 Torp's. There's nothing really wrong with that; aside from it requiring all level 5 skills.

And the 2 ly max jump. That will get you past most gate camp's; but not much more. I'm not certain it's intended too.

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.03 23:00:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Kelanoein
The black Op's isn't supposed to have better DPS/Tank, than it's T1 counterpart. It already has cloak, higher agility and velocity; and can decloak, and immediately lock up a target. It also has better Scan Res, than a T1.

For reference, the Widow can get an 8s align time, 73K shield tank, and 33 points of ECM; while being Cap stable, and having the ability to dish out 809 DPS with T2 Torp's. There's nothing really wrong with that; aside from it requiring all level 5 skills.

And the 2 ly max jump. That will get you past most gate camp's; but not much more. I'm not certain it's intended too.


33 points of ecm you say? clearly this man knows how ECM works

As for targetting delay after cloaking, when are you seriously gonna be on grid before your target? Being unable to warp cloak means you're gonna be either warping to your target like a chump, or jumping to your target because someone else has already tackled/lit a cov ops cyno ontop of them, so that point is moot

The ONLY redeeming factor about blackops imo is the fact that with blops V and a dread guristas cloak you can align out in ~3s (but lol blops V, thats quite the investment)

Id like to see some more utility on the blops. As it stands, its something of a miniature capital for covert ops. Why not give it a small ship maintainence array/fitting service that can only be used by cov ops/stealth bombers/force recons or something? Maybe let it store a stealth bomber or two? Makes it more like a covert ops mini capital.

Also give it extra jump range per level or something, 4.5ly barely gets you anywhere (you really should be flying this with JDC V)

theres really no reason to combat fit a black ops, if you can fly one, you can probably fly a carrier (or are close to one) which are more effective for hotdropping any day of the week. Honestly, barring the redeemer, combat hotdropping a blops is dumb

Kelanoein
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.04.04 00:04:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Kelanoein on 04/04/2011 00:40:14
Clearly, ECM strength; is applied vs. sensor strength. Maybe it's a little random; but that's the general idea. 33 is enough, to reliably ECM a battleship; or, apply it to 3 cruisers, with some degree of success. The problem with ECM, is the inability to target all factions; with anything near effective strength, using multi-spectral ECM.

All you're really doing, is attempting to discredit my posts; to further the strength of your own arguments.

I may not have supported the thread; but I have supported your idea. That should be enough.

Do you think you're the first to post this here? I'm surprised Obsidian Hawk didn't point you in the direction of the nearest thread; given he has a penchent for doing that. Self -imposed forum moderation, so to speak. Anyway, it's been done; and I properly supported it that time. You haven't so much as stated what you think is wrong with Black Op's; leaving the whole thread, completely in the dark about what you hope to accomplish.

Here's my thought:

Cloaking for Black Op's is broken. Maybe it shouldn't be as good as Covert Op's or Stealth Bomber; but, it could certainly use some improvement. In fact, if it just had access to Covert Op's Cloaks; with a 99% flat reduction, it would be good. No need for a 125% Velocity modifier; which makes it roughly 100 m/s faster than base, with full skill. Still requires 100tf, to fit the cloak; and can warp cloaked, as a nice benfit.

2 LY jump range could be modified. Apply a level dependent benfit, to it; that gives it a max. distance of around 4 LY, with Black Op's V. This can replace the current 125% per level Velocity mechanic.

If you had that; the Black Op's would be serviceable, and it's slight reduction in tank, wouldn't matter. Cripes, it's hardly even noticeable.



Soldarius
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.04.04 01:10:00 - [12]
 

Agree no content.

Some good info here. Lots of bad info here.

I've been playing with the Widow on the test server for a bit. Its viable for solo PvP as is. The biggest problem is geting on grid due to the lack of a covert ops cloak.

Getting off grid is easy, as you can align while cloaked. Due to the velocity bonus, you will be able to attain 75% of top velocity while cloaked, and thus can insta-warp off grid as soon as you decloak. Align time in a BO is therefore largely irrelevant.

Someone pointed out BO sensor lock time. Clearly you have never used a cloak of any kind, otherwise you would know that a non-covert cloak gimps your scan resolution. On a BS-sized ship, that sucks. Even without the sensor recalibration delay, you won't be able to lock any subcaps before they warp out or put drones on you. SeBo w/ scan res script is required on a BO for solo work. If in a gang where others will be doing the tackling, then you can forgo it.

I agree the biggest problem is a lack of range on the portal and jump drive. Personally, I think most portals and jump drives have too much range, BO not included. If you want an improvement, I would recommend fixing the Jump Fuel Conservation skill to include Liquid Ozone. As it stands now, it only applies to Strontium Clathrates, which are used for Titan bridges, meaning the only use for the skill is for titan pilots.

This would allow for longer roams, though not longer jumps.

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.04 15:01:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 15:02:10
Originally by: Kelanoein
Edited by: Kelanoein on 04/04/2011 00:40:14
Clearly, ECM strength; is applied vs. sensor strength. Maybe it's a little random; but that's the general idea. 33 is enough, to reliably ECM a battleship; or, apply it to 3 cruisers, with some degree of success. The problem with ECM, is the inability to target all factions; with anything near effective strength, using multi-spectral ECM.


dude, do you even know how ecm works? using 2 jammers that each have 15 strength isnt the same as using a single one with 30 strength. Not. Even. Close.

And yet thats what your post seems to imply.

Originally by: Soldarius
I've been playing with the Widow on the test server for a bit. Its viable for solo PvP as is. The biggest problem is geting on grid due to the lack of a covert ops cloak.


getting on grid is easy. the module you should be using is Covert Cynosural Field Generator I

Also, im not saying that the class isnt viable for its roles. Its the cost-effectiveness ratio thats horribly skewed. And its jump range is gimped to ****.

I maintain that this ship needs a repurposing, rather than some crappy small buff, to make it something like/close to a dedicated covert ops hotdropping machine. Or maybe split it into 2 ships, one for bridging, the other for combat hotdropping (like combat and force recon?)

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.04 15:14:00 - [14]
 

seems like some peopel in here that have commented never actualy flown or tried to fit a Sin. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204416

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
Posted - 2011.04.04 15:57:00 - [15]
 

Confirming I have a redeemer and a panther, I think both are absolute **** and serve no purpose in game. They do look good in my hanger though. The knowledge that there are more SC's in eve than BO's makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about having 2 of them. At which point I of course try to suppress the knowledge that unlike SC's, BO's are just a massive waste of isk.Laughing

Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.04.04 16:00:00 - [16]
 

Black ops do not need covert ops cloaks. Understand the mechanics of the ship.

They work as intended, though if I could ask for a buff or two:

1) slight range buff. 1 LY would be nice, 2 LY would be epic.

2) Expanded Fuel bay. While this would be fun, it isn't a necessity - at all. Covert haulers and fuel dumps make this a non-issue.

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.04 16:24:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:30:07
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Black ops do not need covert ops cloaks. Understand the mechanics of the ship.

They work as intended, though if I could ask for a buff or two:

1) slight range buff. 1 LY would be nice, 2 LY would be epic.

2) Expanded Fuel bay. While this would be fun, it isn't a necessity - at all. Covert haulers and fuel dumps make this a non-issue.


I wonder how many people who post stuff like this have ever seen a blops beyond eft and their corpmates providing them with a cov-ops bridge

Originally by: Cassus Temon

EVElopedia lists them as having 5000s reactivation delay for cloaking? EFT doesn't represent this.



Why are people too dumb to realise that thats 5000ms. You know, 5 seconds.

Land0 CaIrissian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.04.04 20:34:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Land0 CaIrissian on 04/04/2011 20:34:21
Originally by: BattleSister Oryx
Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:30:07
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Black ops do not need covert ops cloaks. Understand the mechanics of the ship.

They work as intended, though if I could ask for a buff or two:

1) slight range buff. 1 LY would be nice, 2 LY would be epic.

2) Expanded Fuel bay. While this would be fun, it isn't a necessity - at all. Covert haulers and fuel dumps make this a non-issue.


I wonder how many people who post stuff like this have ever seen a blops beyond eft and their corpmates providing them with a cov-ops bridge


lol. People like you are the ones who spent all this time training up black ops expecting it to be an I-win button. Stop whining and put a little thought into how you utilize a ship.

edit: grammar for the police

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.04.04 21:49:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 04/04/2011 21:49:20
Originally by: BattleSister Oryx

Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Black ops do not need covert ops cloaks. Understand the mechanics of the ship.

They work as intended, though if I could ask for a buff or two:

1) slight range buff. 1 LY would be nice, 2 LY would be epic.

2) Expanded Fuel bay. While this would be fun, it isn't a necessity - at all. Covert haulers and fuel dumps make this a non-issue.


I wonder how many people who post stuff like this have ever seen a blops beyond eft and their corpmates providing them with a cov-ops bridge



Thats exactly what everyone who (successfully) uses them for their intended purpose is asking for.

bartos102
Posted - 2011.04.04 22:02:00 - [20]
 

i never flown a BO myself but i was fuele supply in a crane on a covert roam once

we had to take a gate between 2 regions cause the range of the portal was not good enough to take us 1 jump :(

and my crane nearly takes half of the fuel bay when jumping true the portal :(

as far as i can tell that are the 2 biggest problems with BO

and there is nothing wrong with the DPS as i had a corpmate in a carrier who got hotdroped bu a BO gang and they got him into half armor before his cap repairs had finished a cycle

he only survived cause he was right next to a POS

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.05 00:40:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Edited by: Land0 CaIrissian on 04/04/2011 20:34:21
Originally by: BattleSister Oryx
Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:30:07
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Black ops do not need covert ops cloaks. Understand the mechanics of the ship.

They work as intended, though if I could ask for a buff or two:

1) slight range buff. 1 LY would be nice, 2 LY would be epic.

2) Expanded Fuel bay. While this would be fun, it isn't a necessity - at all. Covert haulers and fuel dumps make this a non-issue.


I wonder how many people who post stuff like this have ever seen a blops beyond eft and their corpmates providing them with a cov-ops bridge


lol. People like you are the ones who spent all this time training up black ops expecting it to be an I-win button. Stop whining and put a little thought into how you utilize a ship.

edit: grammar for the police


only an idiot looks for an i-win button in eve (closest thing is a supercarrier)

Originally by: bartos102

and my crane nearly takes half of the fuel bay when jumping true the portal :(



did you know that the black ops portal is 54x more fuel intensive than the titan bride? (or jump bridges)

Kelanoein
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2011.04.05 03:36:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: BattleSister Oryx
Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 04/04/2011 16:30:07
Originally by: Land0 CaIrissian
Black ops do not need covert ops cloaks. Understand the mechanics of the ship.

They work as intended, though if I could ask for a buff or two:

1) slight range buff. 1 LY would be nice, 2 LY would be epic.

2) Expanded Fuel bay. While this would be fun, it isn't a necessity - at all. Covert haulers and fuel dumps make this a non-issue.


I wonder how many people who post stuff like this have ever seen a blops beyond eft and their corpmates providing them with a cov-ops bridge

Originally by: Cassus Temon

EVElopedia lists them as having 5000s reactivation delay for cloaking? EFT doesn't represent this.



Why are people too dumb to realise that thats 5000ms. You know, 5 seconds.


It says 5000s. I was pointing out, that is incorrect.

Have you got a piece of barbed wire shoved up you ass, or are you always like this?

Tiger Prince
Minmatar
Peace Million Foundation
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:05:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kelanoein
The black Op's isn't supposed to have better DPS/Tank, than it's T1 counterpart. It already has cloak, higher agility and velocity; and can decloak, and immediately lock up a target. It also has better Scan Res, than a T1.



The unfortunate thing about that is that I can fit a T1 version of the same ship with the same cloak and lock in about the same amount of time. I could handle loosing the insta-lock if they could live up to their description.
Originally by: CCP's Description
For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
I think not

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:11:00 - [24]
 

Quite right. I have never flown a Black Op's. I was training for a Widow, off and on; but, never quite got myself into one.

Fuel? Deep Safe Secure Container's. Set them up in the systems you use; and refill them once in awhile.

Bookmarks's, Deep Safes with storage, etc..., have all been in EVE a long time; and a lot of people use them effectively.

Dropping a Covert Cyno, to put your Black Op's on grid?
Originally by: "EVELOPEDIA"
The ship that opens a covert cynosural field is scanable as normal with the use of scan probes.
Not going to work.

I only use EFT, to see how a ship fits; and what kind of EHP, Align time, and DPS it can get. Just like anyone else. Saves you a bit of ISK, when you do finally decide to fit one.


A single ECM fails to jam a ship under it's strength; so, I can't see it mattering, if 3 have stacking penalties. Besides which, I've never read up on it; and you can't get a module that puts out 30 strength, that I'm aware of. Most Battleships don't exceed 26 points anyway; so my original statement, is correct in assessed value.

I'm almost certain, if someone suggested a perfect fix; you would still stomp on their opinion, and go all elitist. You've posted contrary opinions; and opposed most everyone in this thread. Perhap's you're just here to argue incoherently.

Cassus Temon
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.04.05 04:22:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Tiger Prince
Originally by: Kelanoein
The black Op's isn't supposed to have better DPS/Tank, than it's T1 counterpart. It already has cloak, higher agility and velocity; and can decloak, and immediately lock up a target. It also has better Scan Res, than a T1.



The unfortunate thing about that is that I can fit a T1 version of the same ship with the same cloak and lock in about the same amount of time. I could handle loosing the insta-lock if they could live up to their description.
Originally by: CCP's Description
For the final word in clandestine maneuvers, look no further.
I think not


Personally, I think the Instalock is good; and I'd be disappointed to see it go. I could lose the velocity modifier, and see a bit of a DPS reduction; possibly, even lose a bit of armor/shields, in actual points.

For that, I'd expect to see a gain, in the loss of holes in the resistances; and actual Covert Op's Cloaking, rather than this fake cloak business. Lose the abilty to go beyond 99% CPU reduction; for the sake of the Insta-lock; and gain a bit of agility, as an added bonus. They're relatively quick already; but with the loss of DPS, and armor, it would be nice. Even a marginal 4% gain, would be fair. Just don't tank the tank, too much.

I also noticed, the slots assignement and powergrid/CPU are irregular; comparing the Black Op's of each faction, and their T1 counterparts. That would be the first thing, I'd look at; in terms of balancing the class, and trying to improve it.

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.05 06:56:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: BattleSister Oryx on 05/04/2011 06:58:41
Originally by: Cassus Temon
Quite right. I have never flown a Black Op's. I was training for a Widow, off and on; but, never quite got myself into one.

Fuel? Deep Safe Secure Container's. Set them up in the systems you use; and refill them once in awhile.

Bookmarks's, Deep Safes with storage, etc..., have all been in EVE a long time; and a lot of people use them effectively.

Dropping a Covert Cyno, to put your Black Op's on grid?
Originally by: "EVELOPEDIA"
The ship that opens a covert cynosural field is scanable as normal with the use of scan probes.
Not going to work.

I only use EFT, to see how a ship fits; and what kind of EHP, Align time, and DPS it can get. Just like anyone else. Saves you a bit of ISK, when you do finally decide to fit one.


A single ECM fails to jam a ship under it's strength; so, I can't see it mattering, if 3 have stacking penalties. Besides which, I've never read up on it; and you can't get a module that puts out 30 strength, that I'm aware of. Most Battleships don't exceed 26 points anyway; so my original statement, is correct in assessed value.

I'm almost certain, if someone suggested a perfect fix; you would still stomp on their opinion, and go all elitist. You've posted contrary opinions; and opposed most everyone in this thread. Perhap's you're just here to argue incoherently.


this post shows little to no understanding of the mechanics behind how these ships work.

Also, an all level V widow with 2 jam rigs and 4 signal dispersion amps in low will still only jam at about 15 strength, so i dont know where you got 26 from.

Regarding the covert cyno. They have to be scanning your exact spot at the exact time you light the cyno (60 second duration, 30 seconds if you're using a force recon). It doesnt show up in system overview, so they have no way to know where/when you've lit it. However thats only when moving.

With regards to dropping on grid, think about what i said before you make yourself look even more ignorant.

also lol doublepost

Evanga
Amarr
Trust Doesn't Rust
Posted - 2011.04.05 11:49:00 - [27]
 

stop whining about the range, that will never ever happen. It was intended to be like this by CCP.

Regarding the fuel consumption, just make a suggestion for less fuel consumption.
It doesn't need a bigger bay, just less consumption.

And also no covert ops cloak, no way in hell :D


 

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