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baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:38:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 16:34:44
Originally by: baltec1
Fixed.
No. You didn't fix anything. What you did do, however, is set up what is known as a red herring.





Whats the difference between the two? Both show up in local, both are AFK, both can pop up at any time and attack something. The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.

Mister Rocknrolla
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:48:00 - [122]
 


I've been trying to educate myself on all things sig radius related and stumbled across this statement on another site:

Originally by: Don Won
Target size is calculated as sig radius / sensor strength. The smaller your ship's target size, the harder it is for people to probe you down. Below 1.08012498 no one in game can scan you out.

For an unscannable Tengu handy for low/null-sec missioning you'd need:
Gravimetric Backup Array II (low-slot)
ECCM - Gravimetric II x2 (mid-slots)
And nothing that increases sig radius i.e. MWD usage.


That quote is from May 2010, so I'm not sure if it's still accurate (if it was accurate at the time). But if it is correct, then doesn't that make the discussion of nerfing cloaks irrelevant? If an uncloaked ship can be fitted so as to be not probed down, that makes the discussion of cloaks moot, no? The supposed "problem" has to do with sig radius, sensor strength &etc. And that would be a whole different kettle of fish.


MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:50:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Whats the difference between the two?
Both show up in local
Yes.
Originally by: baltec1
both are AFK
Could be, yes.
Originally by: baltec1
both can pop up at any time and attack something.
No. Someone in station cannot just pop up next to a target and attack it almost instananeuously. He would need to undock and LOCATE the target while also it being able to be located. That makes a huge difference.
Originally by: baltec1
The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
You cannot project a threat to a docked Machariel and the Machariel cannot project a threat on to you either. When it undocks it would need to spend time looking for you and you have that same opportunity to scan the Mach down.

A cloaked ship CAN project a threat but no one can project a threat onto it. In other words a claoked ship in space can bring instant unconsensual PVP to any ship in space the pilot chooses, but the same cannot be done to it.

But you know this already Wink.


Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.03 16:57:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Rhadia
You guys ever wondered what happens when an entire corporation of cloaky ships moves into your system?

Try telling me how that one's balanced.

When it's just one, it's a minor nuisance depending on skill level. When it's 20+ with recon support and cloaked bubblers, they own your system.


Working as intended...

baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:00:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Originally by: baltec1
Whats the difference between the two?
Both show up in local
Yes.
Originally by: baltec1
both are AFK
Could be, yes.
Originally by: baltec1
both can pop up at any time and attack something.
No. Someone in station cannot just pop up next to a target and attack it almost instananeuously. He would need to undock and LOCATE the target while also it being able to be located. That makes a huge difference.
Originally by: baltec1
The only difference is that the docked ship could be mach which is far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak.
You cannot project a threat to a docked Machariel and the Machariel cannot project a threat on to you either. When it undocks it would need to spend time looking for you and you have that same opportunity to scan the Mach down.

A cloaked ship CAN project a threat but no one can project a threat onto it. In other words a claoked ship in space can bring instant unconsensual PVP to any ship in space the pilot chooses, but the same cannot be done to it.

But you know this already Wink.




In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.

Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:14:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 17:23:01
Originally by: baltec1
In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.

Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
The same way you expect the system to have a fleet ready at a moments notice 24/7 YOU should also be required to have a fleet at any moment's notice ready. Because risk should be for everyone, not just your enemies.

You see, you keep mentioning 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and that I'm supposed to be ready at all times, and I should have to buddy up with a gang if I'm going to mine or PVE, and I should have to pay attention for as long as I'm out in space. And I should be ready for unconsensual PVP. And that there should be a chance for me to unexpectedly lose my mining ship. But notice how these things you insist should apply to me don't apply to you :P.

You can go AFK for DAYS, FFS, without having to worry about ANY of those things Laughing. And yet you expect me to remain vigiliant and have that fleet on standby, all while you're at the parlor having some pizza.


Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:18:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: baltec1

Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking


All the alternative ways require manpower. AFK cloaking not. I won't even be doing metion about the risk/reward part.


Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari
Deep Space Nomads Corp
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:23:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara

T3 pve ships have no light drones. And tengu is one of the best ships for killing rats.
Bombers increase risk, so I lose my ship more often, so even though I earn the same, my costs are higher.


It also has heavy missiles which will rip a bomber apart. If you get killed in a tengu by a bomber then you are doing something very very wrong.


It also has no way to hold the ship, so it doesn't warp off when the things start looking grim.

In any case why are you so focused on bomber. "Look the weakest ship with covert ops cloak is weak, who cares that pilgrim with it's neutralizers would **** any active ratting ship (which is every single decent ratting ship)"

baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:27:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 03/04/2011 17:23:01
Originally by: baltec1
In order to know the mach is docked you have to keep an eye on it and seeing as you people are not wanting to keep fleet togeter its is highly likely the mach can undock, scan out a target and be melting its face before anyone knows its out. I know because I have done it many times before.

Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking
The same way you expect the system to have a fleet ready at a moments notice 24/7 YOU should also be required to have a fleet at any moment's notice ready. Because risk should be for everyone, not just your enemies.

You see, you keep mentioning 0.0 is supposed to be dangerous and that I'm supposed to be ready at all times, and I should have to buddy up with a gang if I'm going to mine or PVE, and I should have to pay attention for as long as I'm out in space. And I should be ready for unconsensual PVP. And that there should be a chance for me to unexpectedly lose my mining ship. But notice how these things you insist should apply to me don't apply to you :P.

You can go AFK for DAYS, FFS, without having to worry about ANY of those things Laughing. And yet you expect me to remain vigiliant and have that fleet on standby, all while you're at the parlor having some pizza.




I face risk every time I engage someone in pvp. Its not my falt you make life easy for me. There are several ways to AFK camp a system and yet more for people who are not AFK. The only way you stop being scared of an AFK player is if local is removed, then you cant see the harmless AFK players.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:30:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 03/04/2011 17:31:59
Originally by: Grog Barrel
Originally by: baltec1

Then we have the unprobeable nightmares and tengu or something at a POS both of which are far more deadly than anything with a cov ops cloak. There are far more ways to keep a system locked down than just AFK cloaking


All the alternative ways require manpower. AFK cloaking not. I won't even be doing metion about the risk/reward part.


A pos needs to be refueled every month or so while the tengu is even easyer than a bomber to use because you do not even have to push a button to be immune to probes.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:40:00 - [131]
 

Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.

God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).


baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.03 17:44:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.

God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).




When in my bomber I spend most of my time sittig still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?

Thalis Malu
Posted - 2011.04.03 18:35:00 - [133]
 

I find it funny that as certain "sections" of null become seas of blue we get crap like this.

Wonder how long until someone begins begging for a CONCORD sov upgrade.

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.04.03 19:00:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.

God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).




When in my bomber I spend most of my time sitting still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?


You will be an innocent bystander. But that'll teach you, right?

Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.03 19:09:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Like I said, if you want to camp a system 24/7 365 days/year to curb mining and ratting by all means do it. But you should be required to be at the keyboard to do it.

God forbid CCP added a chance to find and kill AFK cloakers (inattentive players in space, you know, the one you don't want me to be?).




I agree that posing an ACTUAL threat to a system should require me at the helm, but simply providing the illusion that I'm doing so should not. I AFK cloak in a friggin unarmed frigate on an alt while I'm at work/school and play on my main. My target system is in 0 danger, but they still rarely venture out. The problem is not with the way the game works the problem is with the inhabitants being pussies.

BTW, I rat in a domi with neuts in my highs and heavy ECM drones in my bays. There is no single ship that can take it down.

Kalain ap'Sulen
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.04.03 19:34:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Marcus Welbey
Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33
I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.

1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?

2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.




You aren't cloaked in any of those situations so none of your following points or comparisons really mean ****.

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2011.04.03 19:57:00 - [137]
 

Never have understood why people get upset about it. Given all the ways other people can mess with you in this game, afk cloaking seems like small potatoes. People can mess with you in eve, it's the way of the game, and you can return the favor (perhaps not to the individual, but certainly to their political organization).

It's a way to make local a less dependable danger detector for a system. A person could do the exact same thing by bouncing safespots or using a low sp alt in a cheap unprobable frigate that's not worth finding the hard way. The only real difference I see is you don't have to be there all the time to do the afk cloaking. So the question is, should opposing players have something that tells them if you are actively doing stuff at the moment or if you are just chilling? In my opinion, no, they should have to work for that information or live without it.

It's one way small scale fights get started in 0.0 and low sec. We have precious few game mechanics that create those types of fights already, removing one of them doesn't seem like a great idea.

Note: I can't recall any specific time where I AFK cloaked for the purpose of disrupting others farming but I have certainly had to deal with it... and it didn't bother me, I see it the same way as I see someone roaming through the system.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.03 23:29:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: baltec1
When in my bomber I spend most of my time sittig still within jump range of a gate waiting. How would you nerf AFK cloakers (who pose no threat because they are not there) without nerfing me?
First, let's be honest here. You've already admitted you're an AFK cloaker here:
Originally by: baltec1
I afk in my bomber.
So no, you wouldn't be an innocent bystander Wink.

Second, I would do it personally? I'd add an expensive-to-use consumable cloak-detecting probe, extremely difficult to use (and train for) and that it is broadcast system-wide that it is being used. I would have it take 5 minutes to spit out a warpable that's within say, 10 km in accuracy. That way, if you are cloaked and NOT AFK you'll know 5 minutes ahead of time that if you don't move there'll be a chance to find you, however slim. If you're AFK cloaked and on the move, then a second probe can be deployed and trace your trajectory, that would again, take 5 minutes to track you down.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.03 23:37:00 - [139]
 

…and the question remains: why not just fix local?

"AFK cloaking" is a counter to local, and if the two are imbalanced, you fix the first so the second isn't needed. You don't add a counter-counter, because then you're just adding additional layers of imbalance.

AristotleOnassis
Posted - 2011.04.03 23:53:00 - [140]
 

Since when afk cloakers is 100% safe.

You can easily field a billion ships, and move through every single inch in the universe. That way, eventually you will bump into him and kill him.

Of course, the easier way is to keep alligned at all times.

Even bombers takes 6 seconds to start shooting/cyno, and well over 2 seconds to warp in as they appear on overview. This is more then enough time to warp out if you are alligned.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.04 00:10:00 - [141]
 

Quote:
BTW: comparing AFK cloaking to any kind of real life scenario? Horribly stupid.


Because in real life no one has weapons that are immune to radar or sonar. Thank god.

R O F L

Mel Lifera
Gallente
Ambrye Logistics Ltd.
Posted - 2011.04.04 01:14:00 - [142]
 

Can anyone honestly prove the cloaker is actually AFK?

Of course not.

So this is actually a while about cloaking, not AFK cloaking.

Frau Klaps
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.04 01:21:00 - [143]
 

I too wish I could have risk free moneybearing in lawless space. CCP are insane not to listen to my reasonable concern.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.04 01:22:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 04/04/2011 02:12:30
Originally by: Tippia
…and the question remains: why not just fix local?

"AFK cloaking" is a counter to local, and if the two are imbalanced, you fix the first so the second isn't needed. You don't add a counter-counter, because then you're just adding additional layers of imbalance.
If by "fixing local" you mean getting rid of it with nothing to replace it, well, it's not gonna happen. CCP has been clear on this. It will be replaced by a more information-imperfect system, but it WILL be replaced. And if this is what you're advocating for, then I'm NOT on board.

If, on the other hand, you mean "fix" as in replace with a different system then I'm all for it, as long as it:

1. Keeps things pretty balanced and fair (not a buttsex-surprise orgy against alert PVE'ers). If one side is being forced to buddy up with a fleet to stay safe then so should the other side.

2. Everyone (including AFK cloaker) faces real tangible and unconsensual risk. None of this "U-SHUD-HAV-FRIENDZ-2-PROTECT-U-24/7-BUT-I-SHULDNT-HAV-TO" BS.

And most importantly (IMO),

3. AFK-cloaking needs to be replaced by a mechanic that can efficiently accomplish a reduction of alliance space if said alliance isn't capable of defend it; Not the half-ass joke bull **** it accomplishes now, which is pretty much petty lul-kills while being able to safe up for days on end with no risk to the cloaker. There should be a reasonable and quick way to knock off space from alliances that hold more space than they can chew.


Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.04 03:39:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Renan Ruivo on 04/04/2011 03:39:19
Arazu sits in cloak, waits for one, two, five, ten, thirty (hey, i've seen month-long cloakers..) for pve ships to try their luck. Raven undocks/leaves pos and starts ratting. AFK cloakers quits AFK without anyone knowing, finds Raven, warps to it under cloak.

Waits for it to be aggroed by a ****load of rats.

Starts chronometer: exits cloak, tackles raven, cycles covcyno and then cancels it, blackops locks onto it, SB's jump, blackops jump to random point on system (effectively generating safespot), cloaks, SB's lock onto raven, SB's release a hail of torpedo fire, Raven goes BOOM, SB's cloak up and fly left;right;up;down, then warps to 30/40/50/70km of whatever stellar body under cloak. Stops chronometer. less than 20 seconds have passed. Raven is dead, and all covops ships are safed up. Blackops waits for the cap to recharge. Cap recharges. Command is given for SB's to warp to the blackops, covert jump bridge estabilished, SB's arrive and jump, blackops jump. AFK Cloaker remains on the system and waits for another bastard to try his luck.


There. Print that and read 5 times in a row then practice with your buddies on Sisi. Now your gang is unstoppable.

Jack Ascendus
Posted - 2011.04.04 03:43:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Renan Ruivo
Edited by: Renan Ruivo on 04/04/2011 03:39:19
Arazu sits in cloak, waits for one, two, five, ten, thirty (hey, i've seen month-long cloakers..) for pve ships to try their luck. Raven undocks/leaves pos and starts ratting. AFK cloakers quits AFK without anyone knowing, finds Raven, warps to it under cloak.

Waits for it to be aggroed by a ****load of rats.

Starts chronometer: exits cloak, tackles raven, cycles covcyno and then cancels it, blackops locks onto it, SB's jump, blackops jump to random point on system (effectively generating safespot), cloaks, SB's lock onto raven, SB's release a hail of torpedo fire, Raven goes BOOM, SB's cloak up and fly left;right;up;down, then warps to 30/40/50/70km of whatever stellar body under cloak. Stops chronometer. less than 20 seconds have passed. Raven is dead, and all covops ships are safed up. Blackops waits for the cap to recharge. Cap recharges. Command is given for SB's to warp to the blackops, covert jump bridge estabilished, SB's arrive and jump, blackops jump. AFK Cloaker remains on the system and waits for another bastard to try his luck.


There. Print that and read 5 times in a row then practice with your buddies on Sisi. Now your gang is unstoppable.


Cloak up hictor ahead of time in the belt raven bait will warp to. Wait for cov ops LOL. Undock 200+ insta canes, kill bombers.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.04.04 05:00:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Jack Ascendus

Cloak up hictor ahead of time in the belt raven bait will warp to. Wait for cov ops LOL. Undock 200+ insta canes, kill bombers.


And raven is still dead in 20 sec and all bombers have cloaked, moving away from bubble then they come back and **** your cane blob & hictor with bombs. Rolling Eyes



Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.04 06:28:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Feligast
mk, I respect the fact that you feel as strongly about this as I, even if the opposite way. I would, however, like to get your response to this question.

Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla

The counter question to the people afraid of AFK cloakers...IF CCP removed instant local, what would you do? How would you change your tactics?

Then the follow-up question would be..."why don't you just do that now?"





yeah, I didn't read the whole thread but I thought I'd try and give my honest answer to this. Bit out of practice so please forgive my noobishness.

OPTION A

Do as many of these things as you can.

Set up corp in a single system with only 1 entrance. place large bubble on the gate with constant scout/alt watching to see whenever someone jumps in. Large bubble is mostly to delay them, info coming through some alt in corp is a few seconds slower want a few extra seconds to stop fast tacklers catching us off guard. If bored may drop a bunch of cans around the gate and hope we get lucky and catch some cloakers sneaking in, unlikely but why the hell not, might even give some bored t1 scouts something to do. Everyone should be doing scans with their scanner, might have someone sitting at a pos with long range probes searching for ships (or WH's which you'll pop as soon as they show up).

When someone does come in do the usual dock/pos up until we feel like fighting back. But ppl will still get in and you can never get them out so it's not 100% secure still, at least something like that makes it a pain to get in unnoticed and less likely to get jumped by roaming fleets. With sufficient patience in staying docked up only dedicated players will catch you or people willing to afk/log off for a while.

Only fly cheap ships outside of pos no faction stuff and shoot anyone who dares use a carrier. Probably keep a couple carriers in poses sending out fighters to help though. Depending on pilot and situation: use pvp setup ships (hac's, sb's, hic's) to go ratting with fighter support and when someone is attacked call rest of corp in OR use t1 insured bs and just learn to accept losses.
Which way you go here depends on what tactics your enemy are using, with entire hidden fleets and black ops cyno's there is no gaurantee bringing in support from corp mates in system will help at all so may just be best to cut your losses.

Why don't I do that now? cause it's a waste, spending money, effort wasted people and even wasted potential income by not using better ships such as directly using carriers or marauders. With all that extra effort spent on trying to make it safer ratting/anomalies in 0.0 just wouldn't be worth it, and that's with a good case of having a dead end system and a corp that's all active in the same time zone which not everyone is gonna get.

OPTION B

Use 0.0 for pvp don't try to pve there.

Income comes from pos goo for corp and planet goo. If this isn't enough for individual pvp losses use empire alts that run missions, market, research, cyber for isk etc. to fund your 0.0 pvp habits. Possibly set up some corp get rich scheme to help fund it




Also I find it highly likely that someone is going to respond that if local was removed we could just improve 0.0 income to compensate. Don't know if that would work but I think the problem is we are looking it from only 1 perspective far too often.

The psychological/mind games effect of afk cloaking far out ways it's costs (definition of unbalanced), however it's the only effective tool against local intel (another unbalanced mechanic). Two wrongs don't make a right or something like that (there's another dozen things that affect this as well so we need to consider those too). Oh and here would be the part where I give some genius solution that makes everyone happy but... nope. We're probably gonna need some compromise that makes no one happy but works out best for all but I can't think of it.

Miss Krunk
Posted - 2011.04.04 08:44:00 - [149]
 

Again, the thing you are all screwing up on is assuming the some that the random afk cloaker is in a stealth bomber. What if it is infact a T3 cruiser or someone. You realize that you can just park a ship somewhere while you play another account or watch netflix, and check it every 10-15 minutes.


Fitting a cloak should only make you hard to find, not invulnerable. I still say that there should be a way to find cloakers, preferably tying it to the use of an EAF.

Kara Sharalien
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.04.04 08:50:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Marcus Welbey

1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?


Correction on scenario:

Well how about I come to your house and put my .45 on the table, then go do the shopping. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just out doing the shopping, AM I a threat?


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