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Marcus Welbey
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:05:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33
I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.

1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?

2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.

3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?

4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.


Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions intelligently. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.

Karia Sur
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:14:00 - [2]
 

1 - i would evict you.

2 - I would move.

3 - there are always actions that can be taken to counteract another persons actions.

4 - if they are truly afk, they arent a threat. If they arent truly afk, then you have ways and means of removing them.

no flame, no troll, but seriously man, at least come along with a decent argument. The points you make just make you out to be a chicken who isnt prepared to try to do something in retaliation.


Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:15:00 - [3]
 

If you were standing in my room with a .45, I'd probably have three people with shotguns pointed at your head. So that analogy falls flat on its face, yes?

Now if you were to stand in my room, invisible and with no means of impacting upon my welfare, I'd go about my business.

If you were standing in my room, invisible but in possession of a portal gun which would let you open a portal through which an indeterminate number of demons could instantly erupt, I would be concerned. Either I myself would have an indeterminate number of demons ready to erupt through a portal of my own making, or I would be asking for the portal gun to be nerfed so that I could run away or have a chance to kill you (and this render your portal gun inoperative) before your army of demons had a chance to erupt through the portal.

It is not AFK cloaking which is "the problem" here so much as the instantaneous nature of cynosural travel, and the inability to determine what is likely to come through that portal.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:19:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 02/04/2011 16:22:15
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?

Threat, yes. Critical danger, no.
And the more appropriate analogy would be a wild west town and you, a newcomer//mysterious stranger sitting at the bar.

Quote:
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.

Then DON'T sit in a station all day and spin a ship. 0.0 is not supposed to be highsec, in case you haven't noticed. There is SUPPOSED to be some danger.
Also, as long as you stay OUTSIDE the job place, and my company has even the sprightliest competent security team, I would not really give a damn about you standing outside. It's only when you try to come in and security drops the ball that you need to start worrying. Or if you prefer the wild west analogy, if you're alone in the bar with the "new guy" and he all of a sudden draws his gun but nobody else in the bar bothers to draw theirs.

Quote:
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?

There is no need to counter WHILE he's ACTUALLY AFK. Once he's no longer AFK, you need to deal with him like any other intruder.
Oh, wait, I forget, you like living in 0.0 but also being just as secure as in highsec (or, better said, even more secure).
Right.

Quote:
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change int he actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dint want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.

YOU are gaming a flaw in the intel system, namely the no-effort intel you get by having a "LOCAL" which tells you if there's any possible threat online.
AFK cloakers counter-game that system by making you feel like there's a constant threat.

AFK cloaking is the counter to local.
You don't need a counter-counter, you need to remove the initial imbalance.
Remove local.


P.S. Yes, and also nerf cynoing a bit.
Like, say, require a spool-up time for all regular jumpdrive/jumpbridge/jumptunnel travel.
You still have black ops to contend with, but that was INTENTIONAL. Black ops jumps/tunnels can remain spool-up-less.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:25:00 - [5]
 

Its not instantaneous, from decloak to the bridgees locking its probably 5 or 6 seconds depending on lag + what the target is. Also bombers die very fast when stationary and recons lock time is nerfed by decloak. All in all a solo ratter has a decent chance of escape, possibly with a bomber kill, if they are smart enough to be aligned if ratting with a cloaker in system. Moving at speed while ratting can make it very difficult for a cloaky to get near you without decloaking (esp in belts. As ever people who warp to belt at 0 and sit there killing rats deserve to die. Missions and plexes are safer as cyno cannot be opened in deadspace.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:27:00 - [6]
 

To be fair, a 10-15 second combined jump time would just about hit the sweet spot.
So add a 5-10 seconds spool-up time.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.04.02 16:38:00 - [7]
 

Keep AFK cloakers (well maybe require a check in once every couple hours)

Keep Local (well maybe have the local list updated once every two minutes on the minute - a gameable delay that still tells the basic story of who lives where) without mashing scanner and only seeing character, corporation, and alliance names if they are on grid and you have a time to check while in that position)

Learn to defend yourself while ratting.. stop figuring you can solo pve in a pve fit ship? (hybrid fits for pve that allow you to defend yourself maybe against player rats as well as npc rats?)

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:10:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?


You are neither AFK, nor cloaked, in my living room. This is the most Godawful, stupid, pubbie rationale I have ever heard.

Originally by: Marcus Welbey
2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.


Feel free. Again, you're not cloaked, nor AFK, standing outside my job with a gun. You'll enjoy Bubba in your cell, though! BTW: comparing AFK cloaking to any kind of real life scenario? Horribly stupid.

Originally by: Marcus Welbey
3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?


You sound mad. U mad? I think u mad.

Originally by: Marcus Welbey
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.


So because you don't like how they play the game, you want to force them to play the game your way? Doesn't that sound just a bit arrogant? How bout you learn to deal with game mechanics, find a friend in a falcon to rat with you, and HTFU.


Originally by: Marcus Welbey
Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions the way I want to hear them. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.



FTFY

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:38:00 - [9]
 

time for my sig again ?


Flex Nebura
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:44:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Flex Nebura on 02/04/2011 17:51:04
The reason AFK cloaking works has little to do with logic and everything to do with fear.

It really doesnt matter if the threat is real or only percieved. It has to be acted upon. And it only makes it worse if the only thing you can do is gang up and never actually get the release of tension that is an engagement.

But having a friend around usually helps to make you feel more secure.

The OPs points arent the best.. But I can see where he is coming from. Especially since it takes very little effort and very little risk to put the fear into a realitivly large amount of people.

I wouldnt be adverse to have some sort of limiting factor on cloaking.. even if it is 30 minutes or more. Just to put a little more effort into the whole deal. I mean what would be the point of sitting cloaked in a system and then going afk for 23 hours, other than to make the situation unbearable for others. It just seems too easy to do it. It wouldnt be nearly as effective if they disappeared from local too.. but then we would have a whole new sense of paranoia going on I guess.


In short, yes they might not be dangerous. But they are percieved as a threat no matter how little they do.


*edit* ran a little sour in reading the replies the first time around. But Akita and Diomedes have some good points.

Jovan Geldon
Gallente
Lead Farmers
Kill It With Fire
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:49:00 - [11]
 

Wow. It maust have been at least 2 hours since the last afk cloaker whine thread.

Also, inb4 "AFK Cloaker" emptyposting

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:49:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Flex Nebura
The OP's points aren't the best.. But I can see where he is coming from. Especially since it takes very little effort and very little risk to put the fear into a relatively large amount of people.

Remove local and no more fear... compared to "nobody there" anyway Twisted Evil

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:51:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Flex Nebura
In short, yes they might not be dangerous. But they are percieved as a threat no matter how little they do.


Then the problem is not cloaking. The problem is the owners of the system not doing what's necessary to change their perception of the potential threat. Fleet up with a corpmate, share the rat bounties, have the protection of a friend. Once you do that, you start seeing that cloaker in system as an opportunity for a killmail instead of something big and nasty.

Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:52:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Alpheias on 02/04/2011 17:52:12
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Flex Nebura
The OP's points aren't the best.. But I can see where he is coming from. Especially since it takes very little effort and very little risk to put the fear into a relatively large amount of people.

Remove local and no more fear... compared to "nobody there" anyway Twisted Evil


No, don't do that. I like my AFK cloak-alt "I see you" that does nothing but sit cloaked in a system somewhere.

Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
Hav0k.
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Marcus Welbey
Edited by: Marcus Welbey on 02/04/2011 16:11:33
I have read a number of posts on this topic, too many in fact and i would like a few things cleared up.

1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?

2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.

3. There is no need for a counter since anyone can do this. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?

4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.


Flame away trolls and enjoy, but I hope at least one person tries to answers these questions intelligently. Given what I have read so far tho that hope seems quite forlorn.



I see a series of statements, not questions. Not a good start for a discussion.

1) You're conflating the terms "threat" and "harm." You first sentence presents the claim that AFK cloakers do no "harm" and then you try to refute it by saying they aren't a "threat."

2) The argument is you can go somewhere else, exactly.

3) In terms of "counters" I would think of this as a counter to local. If local didn't exist, people would still fly around, so you're 50/50 idea is wrong.

4) So you want to nerf cloaking? Fine, but that's a separate discussion.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:58:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Marcus Welbey

1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?

2. Your just mad because you cant make any Isk. OK your right I like to make isk, I like to enjoy the game I pay 15.00 a month to play, not sit in a station and spin my ship. So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.




I would use this
on you because you were not cloaked.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.02 17:59:00 - [17]
 

The better afk analogy is having a bomb with blinky lights sitting in your house/workplace. You don't know if the guy with his finger on the button is awake or asleep, or if he plans on blowing it up or if it's a hoax. You don't know if you're his intended target or if he's waiting. In particularly bad circumstances, you don't even know if it's owned by someone friendly to you and not meant to be harmful to you at all.

On the other hand, a bomb with a 5 minutes battery is a lot less scary though still potentially a threat.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:01:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: mkmin
An even dumber afk analogy is having a bomb with blinky lights sitting in your house/workplace. You don't know if the guy with his finger on the button is awake or asleep, or if he plans on blowing it up or if it's a hoax. You don't know if you're his intended target or if he's waiting. In particularly bad circumstances, you don't even know if it's owned by someone friendly to you and not meant to be harmful to you at all.

On the other hand, a bomb with a 5 minutes battery is a lot less scary though still potentially a threat.


FYP

mkmin
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: mkmin
An even dumber afk analogy is having a bomb with blinky lights sitting in your house/workplace. You don't know if the guy with his finger on the button is awake or asleep, or if he plans on blowing it up or if it's a hoax. You don't know if you're his intended target or if he's waiting. In particularly bad circumstances, you don't even know if it's owned by someone friendly to you and not meant to be harmful to you at all.

On the other hand, a bomb with a 5 minutes battery is a lot less scary though still potentially a threat.


failed to be clever


FYP

Flex Nebura
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:09:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Flex Nebura
In short, yes they might not be dangerous. But they are percieved as a threat no matter how little they do.


Then the problem is not cloaking. The problem is the owners of the system not doing what's necessary to change their perception of the potential threat. Fleet up with a corpmate, share the rat bounties, have the protection of a friend. Once you do that, you start seeing that cloaker in system as an opportunity for a killmail instead of something big and nasty.


When I said the problem with cloaking was fear... I didnt mean to say that cloaking was a problem with the game. (except its a bit easy to use)

I meant more that its a challenge. That we have to overcome. And like Akita said, afk cloaking is a counter to local. And it also counters various bots. So its not all bad.

Like you, I think the way to overcome AFK cloakers is through teamwork. And if local stays in game forever, all I would suggest as a nerf to cloaking would be to add some sort of limiting factor so it would require some sort of input... rather than having it working 23 hours straight.

Max Godsnottlingson
Amarr
Max G Storage and Logistics
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:11:00 - [21]
 

The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.

Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?

8agpuss
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:13:00 - [22]
 

OP: Are you CCP Grayscale?

Look. 0.0 is meant to be lawless. EVE is a multiplayer game. Get some friends, and work out a counter. Or alternatively go back to highsec.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:14:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.

Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?


AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:17:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
The only issue that I have with afk cloakers is that, in my book, it is no different from somebody who macro-mines. Both are means in which a player can 'play' the game without actually being there.

Now macro-mining we all hate with a passion, but then argue for afk cloaking. Is this not a case of double standards?


An interesting comparison. I see what you're saying, but I would say the difference is the cloaker isn't generating a product, and thus not impacting the market for the entirety of the universe. The only impact a cloaker has is on the players in that particular system. IF you move one system over, the cloaker is gone. If you move one system over in hisec, there's likely to be more macro miners. So while similar in ways, I don't think there's a double standard in vehemently opposing one while vehemently championing the other.

Max Godsnottlingson
Amarr
Max G Storage and Logistics
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:18:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: baltec1
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.[/quote



That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining


Actually, if the cloaker HAD that ability, it WOULD be on a par with macro minibng. The fact that it doesn't make it's own isk makes them different situations.

And again, the question goes back to.. if you can't play against an empty chair, that makes no isk, that shoots nothing, that moves nowhere.. why are you playing?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson
Originally by: baltec1
AFK cloaking makes no isk, gets you no kills, provides no intel and poses a threat to nobody. The only thing you manage is to show up in local chat.

That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining

Gee, that empty chair is sure kicking your ass.
He must be a formidable opponent.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:22:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Max Godsnottlingson

That's not the point. The point is, you are not playing against another player, but an empty chair. Now you prove to me that an empty chair has the ability to pay it's subs and play Eve on it's own, then I will be more then happy for it to play the game, until then, it's on a par with macro-mining


I afk in my bomber and pay my subs. Im not sure what kind of argument you are trying to make here. AFK cloakers have never stopped me from ratting because they are AFK and thus not there to stop me.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:23:00 - [29]
 

However, a way... even if it's once a day where someone could randomly hit a button to decloak in a system would be amazing. Imo, Sov V And cost a heap of iskies.

The tears from the dudes who do "afk" cloak would be amazing.


Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.02 18:23:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 02/04/2011 18:26:13
Originally by: Marcus Welbey
1. AFK cloakers do no harm if they are afk. Well how about I come to your house and stand in your living room with my .45. I wont point it at you, i wont even say anything, im just standing there, AM I a threat?


You really need a psychiatrist

Quote:
2.So tell ya what ill stand outside your job with my .45 and see if you like not being able to make any money, but hey the argument is you can go somewhere else right.


You are trying to make an ass hole think !! - shoot and never ask yourself questions, humanity means something now you've done this.

Quote:
3. So by that logic eve turns into a game in which 50 percent of 0.0 players sit in each others null sec systems afk and they other 50 percent of null-sec players stay in station sounds like a game I would continue to play doesn't it?


Back to a (the) game, what do you mean?

Quote:
4. NO-One is suggesting that people cannot cloak in 0.0 no-one is suggesting a major change in the actual combat of eve. Whats being suggested is that some form of control or counter be placed on this tactic to give people who god forbid dont want to sit afk in a system be given a chance to hunt down someone who apparently enjoys spending 15 bucks doing nothing.


You have that control, alt scouts real scouts and jump/titan bridges. Take your pants up.

0.0 = no rules but those you are capable of make players respect, if you can't you don't deserve it.


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