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blankseplocked [W-BR] Declaration of mutual War
 
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Greg6
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.25 17:14:00 - [241]
 

If the asshats on both sides keep it up, we're gonna be finding out if that's true, I'd wager....

chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.25 18:26:00 - [242]
 

Originally by: Bhramin
I remember a Caldari corporation which declared war on supposed allies for following a mutually benefical path for eliminating mutual threats.


For the record - QCATS as a corporation (and myself personally) have no issue with SOTF performing joint ops with WBR or any caldari state corporation. The line is drawn when SOTF actively assists members of the caldari state while they are fighting gallente militia.

Thankfully, it seems this is being dealt with, but I just wanted to clarify on the above point.

Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.04.25 21:05:00 - [243]
 

Hopefully these differences can be settled as the provocateurs who have been boiling the teapot are the only ones with anything to gain.

We do have our differences but great things happen when we coordinate.

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.25 22:27:00 - [244]
 

If such confusing and heated incidents are to be avoided in the future I think that we will need to have the directors and CEO's sit down and discuss the terms of such "temp-blue" agreements and lay those terms out in a way that is clear cut and provides very little roam for misunderstanding. Who do we remain blue with first? Does a logi chain constitute as a hostile act? Who do you rep or not rep?

I am sure that all parties want a clear and direct line drawn so that incidents can be sorted quickly, and so that all pilots on both sides of this can know for sure what they can do next time such an event occurs. I hope that both sides can find a common ground. My allegiances lie with SLAPD, and those that stand by my fellow miltia mates that would help me and that would expect my help no matter what the situation. Perhaps this is how SOTF feels towards W-BR? If so why not just join them? If it's not how you feel then I would hope in the future you'd sort out the allegiances you hold.

While I would not open fire on any SOTF, I do not know any longer what to expect from them. When you don't know who your enemy is you become wary of the entity that has no clear intent. This coupled with a few very hostile pilots harassing members with threats, has made it hard for those that would protect and fight for their friends to remain neutral here. Who will you shoot or aid if a situation arises like the one that occured yesterday? Will your policy create a division or a understanding of your intent?

Thanks to Gallactica and the leaders of other corporations we may soon see a understanding. Until then as I said, I stand with those that I've stood with since entering the militia and I will stay with them.

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.25 22:36:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Drackarn
Edited by: Drackarn on 25/04/2011 13:47:28
Many are making a comet out of a veldspar 'roid here.

Looking at SoTF's confirmed latest kills I see 16 out of the latest 25 are Caldari State. We've got 8 non-FW in there, mainly pie or 0.0. There is a SINGLE Gallente Milita kill where ONE SoTF member opened fire. In the heat of battle mistakes are made. Our CEO, Gallactica has already said they will be dealt with and the loss reinbursed.

Siding with the Caldari? Really? Seriously?

Yes we team up with WB to kill pirates. Looking at this communication, you'd think we're camping the Villore gate with the squid militia!



The issue was more with the very nature of this being confusing, and with the lack of targets around Black Rise, why blue yourself with your WT's and deprive yourself of fights?

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.25 22:42:00 - [246]
 

Originally by: Annie Anomie
Edited by: Annie Anomie on 25/04/2011 09:44:39
Jack Coutu has been directing "slithering venom" at us non-stop since we got back. To be perfectly honest, we just don't like him.


Are you speaking for the whole of SOTF?

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.25 22:56:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/04/2011 23:17:44
Originally by: Jack Coutu
If such confusing and heated incidents are to be avoided in the future I think that we will need to have the directors and CEO's sit down and discuss the terms of such "temp-blue" agreements and lay those terms out in a way that is clear cut and provides very little roam for misunderstanding.


How hard is it?
FC > "Hey guys, we're temp blue atm! Stop shooting!"
FC2 > "rgr, guys disengage."
Temp blue Caldari FC> "Guys hold fire"
done.


Although no longer functional, the spirit of the "Villore Accords" remains alive for many of us veterans. I had feared that - along with the inexplicable disappearance of Juan Rayo, and the defection of Zagamesh (who I still believe was framed) - the last remaining leader of the "Villore Accords" had gone astray.

Thank you Gallactica and the rest of the more reasonable leaders of the Federation Militia for honoring that great document and resolving this issue.

Although we fight tooth and nail most of the time, I look forward to a time when our two militias and even I-RED can trust each other enough to stand side by side against whatever external threat comes our way.

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.25 23:27:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: X Gallentius
Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/04/2011 23:17:44
Originally by: Jack Coutu
If such confusing and heated incidents are to be avoided in the future I think that we will need to have the directors and CEO's sit down and discuss the terms of such "temp-blue" agreements and lay those terms out in a way that is clear cut and provides very little roam for misunderstanding.


How hard is it?
FC > "Hey guys, we're temp blue atm! Stop shooting!"
FC2 > "rgr, guys disengage."
Temp blue Caldari FC> "Guys hold fire"
done.




I don't think I'd be alone in pointing out that a few errors in this theoretical comms discussion. First, SOTF, WBR, and other GalMil corps do not share comms, and typing it or convo'ing someone hardly resolves the issue fast enough. Second, the situation their has already seen action happening, which means halting the action won't prevent losses perhaps, just stem an all out ****storm. Third, who is to say everyone stops shooting and just walks away? Not everyone flies just comets around and then goes on their own way, please try to think of the people flying around in gangs and fleets, and think of the confusion that will ensue the first time a W-BR gang is baiting then is backed up by a SOTF logi group. Simplifying this like you did is just useless.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.25 23:29:00 - [249]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 25/04/2011 23:30:28
It's easy if there is trust. If there is no trust, then implementing any sort of protocols is impossible since a$$hats will always find a way around any rules of engagement.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2011.04.25 23:43:00 - [250]
 

Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 25/04/2011 23:43:59
I'd say the easiest solution is that you just don't temp-blue any member of the Caldari militia. If you want something done and can't do it yourself (and anyway, from what I've seen, this doesn't seem to be something that happens all that often for either SotF or QCats), just get other FDU members to help you do it.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.26 01:14:00 - [251]
 

Well I'm in agreement with Bhramin. There are greater threats to the Federation than the Caldari Militia and if we need to band together to meet those numerically superior threats when so be it.


Bhramin
Shadows Of The Federation
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2011.04.26 02:09:00 - [252]
 

I am happy to see agreement with X Gallentius as a capulseer who has not always seen eye to eye with me. My personal hope would be that the corporations who call heydilies thier home would aid us in facing these external threats too, surely together the corporations of heyd and nisuwa and enaluria can bring the rule of law to the universe!

Drackarn
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
Posted - 2011.04.26 13:08:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Jack Coutu
Originally by: Drackarn
Edited by: Drackarn on 25/04/2011 13:47:28
Many are making a comet out of a veldspar 'roid here.

Looking at SoTF's confirmed latest kills I see 16 out of the latest 25 are Caldari State. We've got 8 non-FW in there, mainly pie or 0.0. There is a SINGLE Gallente Milita kill where ONE SoTF member opened fire. In the heat of battle mistakes are made. Our CEO, Gallactica has already said they will be dealt with and the loss reinbursed.

Siding with the Caldari? Really? Seriously?

Yes we team up with WB to kill pirates. Looking at this communication, you'd think we're camping the Villore gate with the squid militia!



The issue was more with the very nature of this being confusing, and with the lack of targets around Black Rise, why blue yourself with your WT's and deprive yourself of fights?


I agree with you, there is clearly some confusion here.

Please see my previous communication especially the part regarding "teaming up" not setting high standings. We set blue status when we team up for a 0.0 roam/anti-pirate fleet. The other 23+ or so hours of that day we engage each other with rather extreme prejudice.

Secondly, after re-reading my last post, please visit you favorite CONCORD sanctioned database of confirmed capsuleer ship losses and search for me or any other SoTF pilot. I'm sure you'll find Wolfsbrigade ships both being killed by and killing SoTF pilots. From memory the last Wolfsbrigade pilot I downed was a Manticore in eastern Black Rise two or three days ago and sent her back to the cloning facility.

We are fighting for the Federation and Wolfsbrigade are legitimate targets to us. However, pirates do infest this region and the surrounding areas of non-empire space. It is in the interest of all Empires to terminate these pirates and joint fleets are an excellent method of clearing our space.

The fact is, some pilots in each corp feel bad blood to the other. Whilst each corp has many more members who are either indifferent or friendly to the other, it is the vocal haters that are making the most noise. Therefore this minor issue has been lept upon by those pilots who are blowing it out of all proportion.

May be a simple list might help...

1. SoTF is NOT blue to Wolfsbrigade.
2. Wolfsbrigade is NOT blue to SoTF.
3. Both sides fight and kill each other.
4. On occasions temporary blue standings are set between the two corps for a specific fight or fleet-op and reset at the end.

Now, is that clear?

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.26 19:33:00 - [254]
 

Wouldn't trust be better established by siding with your friends and not your enemies? There are talented and willing Gal Mil pilots that live in Heyd and beyond. If you need more pilots to take on a threat, tap into that resource instead. I know that at first this may be hard since their is some bad blood. If someone doesn't like someone else, fine stay out of the fleet, but I think it'd be in everyone's best interest in our militia to at least attempt such fleets again, and to cease teaming up with our mutual enemy.

It's impossible to avoid future conflict with this. Already their is the assumption that if their are SOTF members around W-BR members we should avoid you both. This mistrust is not going to go away with some kills here and there. It will not go away because you inform us more readily about your "temp-blue". It will go away when SOTF sides with it's own miltia before turning to the Caldari Miltia. If Gallactica was being honest and the loss is refunded, I'll be one of the first people in their trying to make such fleets work. Hell I won't even derp in them as a extra good will measure. Until then though we keep our distance, and that distance will only cause more harm than good.

Helmet Distributor, Derp Commander
Jack Coutu

Mekhana
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.04.26 19:54:00 - [255]
 

Edited by: Mekhana on 26/04/2011 19:54:43
All of this can be avoided if next time there's a more appropriate priority of what is blue. Incidents like this only have to happen once.


Gallactica
Gallente
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:23:00 - [256]
 

Last thing i will say in this discussion.

Jack Coutu, the 900m has been transferred into your wallet for your replacement Proteus.

If you need any more clarification as to where we stand, speak to your leadership or speak to me directly as i have spoken to Buckswanson and also Ammon Dei about this subject and we had an amicable discussion - I cant make it any clearer as to what, why and when we stand and this is now going round in circles.

If you still have a problem or issue then speak to them or speak to me directly, this finger pointing and jousting has gone far enough now and i presume that if you want this to continue on here then you really are not interested in making things work between our corporations.

The olive branch from both parties has been extended to each other, dont spoil what the leadership is trying to build by carrying on petty grievences and that goes to both my pilots and yours.

Bluejacket CT
Percussive Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.04.26 21:53:00 - [257]
 

Just about everyone in Heydieles appreciates the fact that SOTF extended an olive branch and reimbursed the loss of Jack's Proteus, Gal. At this point we're all just working out a way to move forward. Although Jack might rub people the wrong way on occasion, he's addressing a valid point; much of this drama will disappear once we start flying together again.

Jack Coutu
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.04.27 08:02:00 - [258]
 

I am sorry you viewed my post as aggressive or inflammatory. I assure you this was not my goal. I am accepting that olive branch and seeing if anyone wants to further the possibilities that it creates. I have no intention of fanning the flames with SOTF, and even before the refund I was divvying up loot to SOTF members not on our comms or fleet with us. There was a cane pilot from SOTF last night who I gave what we could too, he didn't ask, and even though it wasn't much, he got the same respect anyone else would that fights with us. I don't harbor bad blood towards those that are civil or at the very least neutral. I never will based on a corp ticker. I hope you understand that I would gladly assist any SOTF member that I could, so long as I knew it was reasonable to do so. Thanks for the olive branch Gal, and please know that I respect your word and hope we may all work together in the future.


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