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Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.03.30 06:37:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Souverainiste on 24/04/2011 21:18:19
Edited by: Souverainiste on 24/04/2011 21:17:00
Hi,

This is not a flamming thread, nor a whining thread, keep it civilized.

Gonna keep it simple:
Exposed problem
Solution
Result
-----------

Basically, the main reason bots are left untouched (the mining ones), is that it would most certainly create a shortage of minerals avaible on the market, which is obvious. When over 2B trit are sold daily at jita market and many more Billions around new eden, something has to be done.

The reason mining is done by bots is that it is not profitable, anymore. Back in the days it WAS, when trit was selling for 4-5 isk per unit, and megacyte was around 6k.

If drones (MY MISTAKE' I meant BOTS)were all removed, of course it would hurt the market, bad, but prices would rise, people would be more encouraged to mine, since it would actually be PROFITABLE. Also, there would be a LOT less moms and titans around (I don't think the main idea behind those ships was not to have 50 moms and 30 titans dropping in a fight). This would reduce blobs, decrease the number of supercaps. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against supercaps, but there are way too many around.

I don't have one and dont plan on getting one, but if its tolerated, then hey I'll look into it (sarcasm)...

So, overall:
More players will mine, as there will be money to be made;
The market will stabilize after a few weeks;
The number of supercaps will decrease and
Eve will be a better place free of bots.

Tell me what you think?

Best regards,
Souv.

Mighty Dread
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.30 06:51:00 - [2]
 

I agree with what you are saying. There could also be some side benefits. Miners would get a little more respect, perhaps players would start seeing a value in keeping them alive and well as oppose to just cannon fodder. Too I like the idea of ships and modules being more expensive as perhaps then players will think a little more before shooting.

Problem is in the how, how to shut down botting in EVE? There has to be a way that works.

Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.03.30 06:55:00 - [3]
 

Oh, don't worry, they are not hard to find. Evenews has a list of their own, and I know a couple in high sec. The logs can tell much. You see, when someone is playing 23 hours a day non stop, it rings a bell.

mkmin
Posted - 2011.03.30 06:59:00 - [4]
 

I'm not seeing an actual solution here. I'm just seeing you saying it should be done. There's already a substantial thread on it.

Vexion Daran
Gallente
Templars of Space
Northern Associates.
Posted - 2011.03.30 07:10:00 - [5]
 

Think further down the line...mining would be more fun to do, construction would be nice to pick up and after that stage is the bottleneck.

People are willing to pvp in large numbers because they can pay for ships, but if for example a drake would go double or more the price, modules go up in price, people will not engage in fights unless they outnumber others 5 to 1.
that means that it will put a serious blow to the turmoil that CCP wants to see in 0.0. People will not fight as easy as now.
EVE is a hard game if it comes to isk/per hour. Most players don't have hours a day to play the game.

That's what i think that will happen if you look further then mining and building.
Bots are not good, but banning all bots would seriously collapse the game.

Ya Rayah Panala
Posted - 2011.03.30 07:21:00 - [6]
 

I don't think drakes will double, takes less than an hour to mine the trit needed.

But I see your point, and you are not wrong. Perhaps with a little tweaking, like, say, make NPCS supply the market in low quantities of minerals using haulers (at least real players using bots wont make money off it and it wouldnt collapse the market)?

I think I posted in the wrong section though, I think it will be moved to F&I :p

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.03.30 07:36:00 - [7]
 

So what's your solution?
The "removing all drones" part and the result of that would be "mining becomes profitable which will make people stop using mining bots"?

You think people would stop botting when their bots suddenly make X% more profit?
Seriously??

There might be many underlying problems that "force" (terrible what happens to people in EVE Online) people to bot but I guess we can agreed that people care about the ISK they get from it.
So if you increase the ISK they get from botting why would they stop?
Shouldn't this actually make more people think about doing botting since "risk (getting banned) vs reward (making ISK from botting)" (remember THE one foundation of EVE; whenever someone complains about anything in-game you can be sure "risk vs reward" is called upon) got a whole lot more attractive?


Also you didn't explain something else:
You said CCP don't get rid of the mining bots because that would cause a shortage in the mineral market.
But then you suggested to remove all drones to create a shortage in the mineral market.
So why is one good and the other one bad?

clixoras
Posted - 2011.03.30 07:45:00 - [8]
 

Makes sense, except i wouldn't count on a LOT less Titans etc. Even if prices double the major Alliances are racking enough income to invest in them. It's more likely that the new players would be more (relatively) effected by, say, a doubling a mins prices.

Ya Rayah Panala
Posted - 2011.03.30 08:34:00 - [9]
 

The shortage is a risk to take, but at least no players will get that unfair advantage over others.

This is why I proposed the NPC haulers supplying the markets with a certain ammount of minerals.

Industrializer Tekitsu
Posted - 2011.03.30 09:06:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Industrializer Tekitsu on 30/03/2011 09:09:49
Edited by: Industrializer Tekitsu on 30/03/2011 09:07:28
I'm disappointed by this decision.

Mining bots should be removed. To solve the shortage situation, CCP could make a direct intervention in the market until prices are stable again, just like they're planning to do (or not) with PLEX, either creating a mineral stock from nowhere or introducing mining bots themselves until the prices are stable again, then simulate an item acquisition to inject the isk into the market again. In my opinion if mining becomes more profitable the shortage may be a temporary issue.

Quote:
This is why I proposed the NPC haulers supplying the markets with a certain ammount of minerals.

or this ^^

Not removing mining bots and openly admitting it may increase the mining bot activity. Also, what about market bots?

Eyeama Spy
Posted - 2011.03.30 16:17:00 - [11]
 

The security and botting forum at fan fest was 'interesting'....theres a link to the vid of it on evenews. Joy of joys, there will soon be a new bot notification button like the isk spammer one, and 3rd time offenders will be permabanned...This applys to all types of bots, mission haulers, null sec ratters , miners and even jita spammers and 0.01 isk traders.
I was halfcut at fan fest, but i seem to recall the new security guy saying eula is being changed, and he wants to remove any and everything made/earned by a bot from game.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.03.30 16:23:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Souverainiste
You see, when someone is playing 23 hours a day non stop, it rings a bell.
I know of some people that instead logging off, they simply go afk and leave EVE open, and they don't do botting.

might raise some flags yes, but it shouldn't be a decisive factor.

Alpha Romera
Posted - 2011.03.30 16:39:00 - [13]
 

Just go ahead and load spy ware in the client to check for them, that's the only way it's going to be cured.

Huge Spike
Posted - 2011.03.30 17:16:00 - [14]
 

One solution would be to have CONCORD patrols running through the belts, grabbing and scramming ships.

The pilot then gets a message:

"Complete this CAPTCHA. You have 20 seconds to comply"
"..."
"You now have 15 seconds..."

etc.

The miners have to quickly prove that they are paying attention, or BOOM! Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

T.

Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:33:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Souverainiste on 01/04/2011 08:56:46
Edited by: Souverainiste on 30/03/2011 18:34:16
I eeee.... Was half asleep when we talked about it at fanfest, so I do not recall exactly what was said :(

I know some people just go AFK, but... I wonder if Eve could do like STO did, after, say, 6 hours of being AFK, it logs you off? I know afk cloakies are gonna be mad about this, but I dont see any other way :p

And concord thing, no, just no. I often alt tab or watch a movie while I mine. Or just go get a drink, come back, sitting in a pod.... what the hell?

As for the spy ware, if it would be used only to look for bots, I wouldnt be against at all.

Boroth Kindeze
Posted - 2011.04.24 02:31:00 - [16]
 

The answer to this is as simple as it is ... interesting

I know we all spit on WoW, but blizzard did a really good job with their launcher. For those who don't know, you don't actually start the exe file of the game, but there is a launch application before that. When that starts, it checks for all know security leaks, like key loggers, game hacks and, taddaaaa, bot programs.

If it doesnt find any of those, you can only then press play and the game boots up. I would not mind to have such a launcher before i can boot Eve, if it kicks out all the botters. Secondly it does actually require CCP to do something for their cash, hiring people to snif the internet for botting and hack programs which could be used on eve. And we all know, that whenever actual effort is required from CCP, it will probably end in fail

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.24 05:21:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Huge Spike
One solution would be to have CONCORD patrols running through the belts, grabbing and scramming ships.

The pilot then gets a message:

"Complete this CAPTCHA. You have 20 seconds to comply"
"..."
"You now have 15 seconds..."

etc.

The miners have to quickly prove that they are paying attention, or BOOM! Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

T.


AFK and botting aren't the same

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.24 05:23:00 - [18]
 

Basicaly an AFK miner typicaly makes less isk per cycel than a At keybored miner (pun intended)

Aessoroz
Nohbdy.
Posted - 2011.04.24 06:05:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Aessoroz on 24/04/2011 06:07:39
Edited by: Aessoroz on 24/04/2011 06:06:48
1. Prices go down because theres too much supply because too many bots
2. Back then there was a massive war in null that sucked trit by the hookercumton, things have settled down ridiculously since then
3. Removing drones what? Drones use minerals and are lost very very often, meaning replacement, meaning minerals required meaning demand meaning higher prices

Holy **** did you ever learn the basic economic theories? Or at least take math in high school?

Quote:

I know we all spit on WoW, but blizzard did a really good job with their launcher. For those who don't know, you don't actually start the exe file of the game, but there is a launch application before that. When that starts, it checks for all know security leaks, like key loggers, game hacks and, taddaaaa, bot programs.


Guess what, the launcher has been bypassed by WoW bots before the launcher was released. It's extremely trivial. If it's a piece of software on hardware you have full access to, you can rpae it and modify it beyond what the creators want simply because you can manipulate its environment and it.

Renarla
Posted - 2011.04.24 07:33:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 07:32:51
I'm 99% sure that he was referring to the bots as drones, and not actually proposing to remove combat drones.

Kara Kugisa
Posted - 2011.04.24 07:58:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Huge Spike
One solution would be to have CONCORD patrols running through the belts, grabbing and scramming ships.

The pilot then gets a message:

"Complete this CAPTCHA. You have 20 seconds to comply"
"..."
"You now have 15 seconds..."

etc.

The miners have to quickly prove that they are paying attention, or BOOM! Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

T.


My Hulk takes 10 minutes (or whatever, not timed it) to fill. Funnily enough I dont sit here staring at the screen whilst it does so would get blown up for mining legitimately.



CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.24 09:17:00 - [22]
 

Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.


Kina Ayami
Affari Sporchi
Posted - 2011.04.24 09:20:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Vexion Daran


People are willing to pvp in large numbers because they can pay for ships, but if for example a drake would go double or more the price, modules go up in price, people will not engage in fights unless they outnumber others 5 to 1.
that means that it will put a serious blow to the turmoil that CCP wants to see in 0.0. People will not fight as easy as now.
EVE is a hard game if it comes to isk/per hour. Most players don't have hours a day to play the game.

That's what i think that will happen if you look further then mining and building.
Bots are not good, but banning all bots would seriously collapse the game.


One can say that, on the other hand, it would be easier to recover from a loss by mining the now valuable minerals....even a noob can do it in empire.
As always, the market would get stable after some time. You would lose more but you would recover more easlily.

And btw, ppl blob 5:1 because they suck and they are aware of it, but still want to win. Twisted Evil

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.24 09:24:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Renarla
I'm 99% sure that he was referring to the bots as drones, and not actually proposing to remove combat drones.


My interpretation is that OP started off talking about mining bots, then suggested a way to fight mining bots would be to remove Rogue Drones (and thus the drone poo they carry) on the presumption that making mining more profitable will mean more people will mine without bots.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.24 11:57:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Souverainiste
..Basically, the main reason bots are left untouched (the mining ones)...

You have a source for that statement? Very Happy

It is easy to limit them: Make low-end mining worth while in null and make corps/alliance heads directly responsible for what goes on in their domain.

Takes away the need to buy in Jita and gives leadership a reason to root them out once and for all ..

Somehow I don't see bot handlers freighting minerals into null when Jita market dries up.

Jackson Millenius
Posted - 2011.04.24 13:45:00 - [26]
 

There are 3 types of miners who choose to Bot.


Miners who are botting 24/7 because of the RMT

Miners who bot because they have over 9000 accounts and need to plex them

and the miner who bots because its boring and does it while sitting at his desk.

The 3rd group should not be out-casted because of a dull aspect of the game.




Boroth Kindeze
Posted - 2011.04.24 18:31:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz

I know we all spit on WoW, but blizzard did a really good job with their launcher. For those who don't know, you don't actually start the exe file of the game, but there is a launch application before that. When that starts, it checks for all know security leaks, like key loggers, game hacks and, taddaaaa, bot programs.


Guess what, the launcher has been bypassed by WoW bots before the launcher was released. It's extremely trivial. If it's a piece of software on hardware you have full access to, you can rpae it and modify it beyond what the creators want simply because you can manipulate its environment and it.


Sure it has been bypassed, but like I said, it requires some maintenance, so it gets fixed/updated
You can say whatever you want about it, but fact remains that the amount of bots in WoW is minimum tot none, using macro's is impossible, while there is way much more money to be made for RTM businesses. They have to resort to letting rooms of chinese guys play the game all day

Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.04.24 21:16:00 - [28]
 

No, I did not imply in any way we remove rogue drones.


Souverainiste
Corsairs Inc.
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.04.30 08:56:00 - [29]
 

So would it be possible to set a launcher scanner or is it not?

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.04.30 11:20:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Aessoroz

2. Back then there was a massive war in null that sucked trit by the hookercumton, things have settled down ridiculously since then



Vale/Gem, Cobalt edge and...wherever AAA are at the moment. Still plenty of fighting going on.

Originally by: Souverainiste
So would it be possible to set a launcher scanner or is it not?


Are those actually legal? I've heard they aren't.


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