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Maverick2011
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 02:22:00 - [1]
 

I heard so many times about having to play for 20 years to learn all skills in the game. Athough the lifespan of a MMO can reach that, its unlikely that it will reach that before a sequnce (EVE 2?) is released.

Even those who have 7 years of skill training are very far from that. But th newbie gets to wait many months training before putting his hands on a Battlecruiser or a Battleship with basic skills.

No one wants EVE to become a game full of Titans, its not about maximizing skills. A player after 2-3 months could with good planning (lets face it a newbie won't start the game planning so much) be able to fly a decently fit a Batllecruiser. By decent lets say something that could do level 3 missions without much hassle.

When you consider so many different aspects of EVE (mining, PI, PVP, Exploration...) its kinda hard for a new player to plan and train so much, with so little options. You can expect to fly a decent hulk and mission before sitting for half a year.

If the training skills were like 10-20, training a level 5 skill for 60 days wouldn't be that bad, but let's face it, half of the game choices is about 100+ level 5 skills.

I could be saying a lot of crap since my knowledge is very limited and I recognize it, but from a new player point of view, from a PVPer wanting more victims roaming, wouldn't it be better to make these pilots be ready faster?.

Yea those who spent 7 years with the actual skill training rate would feel robbed but, seriously? Someone with 1 year of skill training advantage would never be able to be reached from a starter because both would have their training skills shortened.

I don't know if this sounds as a killer factor for some, but considering how long it would take for a player to reach 50% of the possible skills learned and the time that takes for a starter to pass the "horrible piece of crap pilot" to the "horrible pilot" skill-wise, I do think that making skills being learned even at +100% speed wouldn't do any harm to the game veterans AND it would bring new players into action faster.

I know that EVE is not for everyone and Wow is not here and easy things are not here, and spoon fed players are not here, but I really think that speed the training would help the game so much. Unless you guys still think that waiting 2 months to learn a skill something exciting.

Well its just something to think about, i'm not trying to take what anyone have already, so don't panic or rage over it. Remember if training skills would be faster now, it would allow veterans to experience things they were about to give up due to training boredom time.

Gavin DeVries
Posted - 2011.03.29 02:32:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Gavin DeVries on 29/03/2011 02:32:02
I don't know how long you've been playing, but they seriously sped up skill training not very long ago, by removing the learning skills. Now, everyone has the effect of having full level 5 primary and secondary learning skills, a +10 to each attribute. Those who already trained those learning skills got the skill points reimbursed, to spend on whatever they liked (I trained HAC 5 in about 20 seconds). On average, I'm earning about 300 skill points per hour more than I was prior to the change. For people with lower learning skills, the difference is even greater.

Also, because skills top out at five, there's only so good you can be. Say you want to be a frigate pilot. Once you train your frigate skill to 5, your chosen weapon and weapon support skills to 5, the appropriate engineering/electronics/mechanic and navigation skills to 5, there's nowhere left to improve in that ship. You can only branch out from there into other ship classes.

Two months is a long time to wait, at least at first. When I first started playing, I kept looking for skills I could train in hours. Now, a month isn't too bad for me, though I still avoid the 6 week plus skills until they are needed. The main thing the new player needs is a bit of focus; it won't take too long to train for what they want.

ACESsiggy
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.29 02:53:00 - [3]
 

""But the newbie gets to wait many months training before putting his hands on a Battlecruiser or a Battleship with basic skills.""


Agree with this ... took me 5 months to finally fly and fit my Mrym with descent modules. This is a little injustice to new players like myself b/c coming into the game my plan was to have an "all-around" descent avatar, but i've learned that it's impossible unless you feel like waiting years and yearsNeutral Took me (A game I won't mention), 5 months to have 2 lvl 85's with top gear enjoying the fruits of end game content.

At the same time however, speeding up skill points would still have its vices due to the sheer magnitude of players having alt's paid for by plex. They need to fix having multiple toons on different accounts and finally utilize the other open slots in character creator.

not edited // stoned

Miss Leatherpants
Posted - 2011.03.29 03:00:00 - [4]
 

It takes (roughly) two years of training to 'perfect' ship support skills. That said, you can be proficient enough to join a fleet as a tackler in less than a day. You can be proficient enough to fly around in a half-decent battlecruiser in less than six months. And you can be fleet ready in a battleship in less than a year. Mind you, this takes a little focus in your training, but if that is your goal then it's within your reach.

I've got multipul characters with over 75mil sp today and I still stare at there evemon profiles sometimes (it happens to the best of us) wondering why I'm waiting a month to train a certain skill. Ultimately eve is about the choices you make while training. If you really want to optomize (I highly reccomend you don't if you're new to the game) then you can always start as a trader, make a load of isk, then puchase a character that fills your requirements in the bazaar. ISK is a lot easier to come by that SP and for someone who really feels limited by their skill ceiling, trade is one of the few places a month-old character can compete with just about anyone else on relatively even footing.

syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.03.29 04:30:00 - [5]
 

I've been on a roam with someone less than 2 hours old, and he got most of our tackles and never lost his ship.

If you think need maxed skills to do anything, you are wrong. If you cant do it yourself, there are thousands of other players. How about playing with them ?

Herrring
Amarr
National Quality Breaker
Posted - 2011.03.29 04:43:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: syphurous
I've been on a roam with someone less than 2 hours old, and he got most of our tackles and never lost his ship.

If you think need maxed skills to do anything, you are wrong. If you cant do it yourself, there are thousands of other players. How about playing with them ?


If one person in fleet is 2hours old, it doesnt make that big of a difference, but if a whole fleet is less than 2 weeks old, doesnt matter how much knowledge and skill(not sp) you have , you will lose any engagement with that fleet.

During my previous wardec, most of my corp members had barely enough skill to fly a bc and could only pump out like 200 dps in a bc.

So it was frustrating for a lot of them because if a wartarget came by with a tengu or something they couldnt do anything even if it was something like 3v1 against a tengu unless one of the older players logged in.

im not all for taking out skills in eve and stuff, but in most cases like this, sp plays a huge role in eve.

You can learn almost everything relevant to pvp in eve in 6 months, knowledgewise, but for many people its a turnoff that you have to wait a whole year to be par with other players.

So im not all against more accelerated skill learning.

knentil
Posted - 2011.03.29 04:48:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: knentil on 29/03/2011 04:50:13
The bottom line is clear.

to increase the amount of players in eve (And therefore increase pvp possibilities and further increase the life span of eve) something MORE drastic has to be done to decrease training times.

Yea yea yea ccp wants to be different with the no instant gratification crap, but guess what, its that crap that would really boost the amount of players in eve. And more players means more targets. So get with the program ccp before the rate of new subs slows even more then it is now!.

And hey have you seen the average amount of active users currently logged in? its laughable in comparison to other games. yea, thats right I went there, you know its sad, don't be delusional..


Miss Leatherpants
Posted - 2011.03.29 04:52:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Miss Leatherpants on 29/03/2011 04:53:58
Subscription rate has been growing, actually.

WoW is over there if you need fast recycled end-game and ho-hum garbage pvp. -->

knentil
Posted - 2011.03.29 05:37:00 - [9]
 

Lol at average active users.


ELLOL!!

Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.29 05:47:00 - [10]
 

1 Eve has been muuuuuch noob unfriendly.

2 I do not get why people think that you can not kill a Tengu if you are smart enough. NEUTS.

3 I dont get what the problem is get frigate 5 t2 guns plus torps to 4. In literary a month and a half you could be flying both stealth bombers and Assault frigates ratting with the bomber in 0.0 and AF for pvp. Enjoying the end game content. Find friends do not rush to big hulls have brains prosper.

knentil
Posted - 2011.03.29 06:02:00 - [11]
 

Also, "go back to wow" and " wow is that way" are very poor defenses and counter arguments.

I look forward to finding someone that has the intelligence to think of something better.
yea know, being objective and logical.

Oh wait... Sorry, thats too much to expect from eve defenders..

Rayford Carpathia
Posted - 2011.03.29 06:13:00 - [12]
 

It doesn't matter if you have the skills, you still need the money to be able to afford the big boats and all their fancy equipment. The money comes from game time. Lots and lots of game time.

Don't be so quick to want to want to get to the end of Eve. Sit back, relax and just enjoy the game as it comes at you.

Kaaeliaa
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2011.03.29 06:38:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Kaaeliaa on 29/03/2011 06:38:52
I think that a more pertinent problem with new players is a lack of skill focusing. Truly new players have no idea what any of the skills do or why they need them. Veterans take a lot of stuff for granted, but finding information on what skills you should be training isn't always easy. The prerequisites listed on items are absolute crap and say nothing about the skills actually required to effective use the item in question. For ships, recommended certificates sort of give a better overview of the core skills needed to effectively use a ship, but are still a bit misleading.

I don't think the skills need to train faster, but making the system a little more intuitive probably wouldn't be a terrible thing. EVE will most likely always have a brutal learning curve, but intuitive =/ easy. Having something like EFT and a skill planner integrated into the game would be extremely helpful. If everyone has to go download a piece of third-party software because it's practically required, it's probably a pretty good indication that the functionality of the software really needs to be baseline.

PewPewLaser
Posted - 2011.03.29 06:40:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Rayford Carpathia
It doesn't matter if you have the skills, you still need the money to be able to afford the big boats and all their fancy equipment. The money comes from game time. Lots and lots of game time.

Don't be so quick to want to want to get to the end of Eve. Sit back, relax and just enjoy the game as it comes at you.

You can plex in 3 days off a trial doing hacking sites in hi sec. For a dedicated player the rate you train skills is way too slow, and for players who enjoy spending a large portion of time into games eve is not going to be the game that will allow them to do that for atleast a year after the character was made. It's the dedicated players that you want playing the game, otherwise all you get is a slouch of casual missioners who carebear in hi-sec.

NovaCat13
Gallente
Lone Star Exploration
Lone Star Partners
Posted - 2011.03.29 07:08:00 - [15]
 

um... they used to... not really even that long ago. I believe their training bonus was removed with what the attribute remap update or around then.

Montgomery Crabapple
Posted - 2011.03.29 07:46:00 - [16]
 

Not this whine again. Rolling Eyes

"I know that EVE is not for everyone and Wow is not here and easy things are not here, and spoon fed players are not here"

Yes. Exactly. Bye.

GyokZoli
Caldari
Sanctum of Citizens
Posted - 2011.03.29 08:11:00 - [17]
 

Further speeding up the training process would make subscribers live EVE for good faster.

Siginaut Caledra
Posted - 2011.03.29 10:27:00 - [18]
 

what are you lot on about???

iv been in this game for 3 -4 weeks now and im in a decent domi that can run level 4's!!!

i was in a myrm by end of trial.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.03.29 11:05:00 - [19]
 

this topic is all i against about.

I was not agree with removing of learning skills. Because when i was "noob" i never felt bad because of training it. I only spend 1-2 weeks for learning skills first half a year of play Eve. Because i always wanted "right now and right here". And i really don't understand people who "spend 2 months of training to just undock".

[sarcasm on]
When i have heard about removing of a learning skills i offered such a great idea for "new players": remove all skills totally and ISKies from game. So every "new player" after 1 minute of playing can board capital ship and go pvp. Such a great idea isn't it?
[sarcasm off]

After all: Eve is not for stupid people. You need brain to play well. You want Quake II in space? Sorry kid. Eve is different. And stop saying "new players need faster start". You need to learn to play this game. And i really hope Eve will not become game "allowed for 4+ kids".

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.29 11:15:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Maverick2011
If the training skills were like 10-20, training a level 5 skill for 60 days wouldn't be that bad, but let's face it, half of the game choices is about 100+ level 5 skills.
What?

Not really, no. This notion that you need a crapton of level V skills is just something players who aren't familiar with the skill system dream up, as is any notion centred around the idea of "catching up".

If new players have problems "getting into the action" it is exactly because of those flawed notions: they think they have to train for V:s before they can start doing things, when in reality, IV:s (which take less than 1/5th the time) is more than adequate. And thus, your problem is already solved: to get to where you believe you need to be already happens more than twice as fast as you think it does.

bushwacka
Posted - 2011.03.29 11:17:00 - [21]
 

people sometimes seem to forget that fights in this game are won by strategy, preparation and knowledge. for example, if you're noob who just started playing and buy a 100mil SP char, of course it will give you an edge, not to mention a broad ship selection - but then again, every guy who has played for more than a few months and knows how to fit a ship, spot and exploit weaknesses etc will be able to **** you over in a cane, now matter how pimp that tengu is Laughing

bottom line: SP support your player skills, not the other way around

i don't view the few weeks it takes for example to move from a stabber to a vaga with min requirements as a timespan i have to wait out, but rather as a timespan i should spend wasting stabbers Very Happy

Maia Hekard
Posted - 2011.03.29 11:27:00 - [22]
 

This is a bad ideea, increasing training speed too much is actually harmful for newbies.

Let me explain: back in the day, in an effort to make the game more accessible, the devs gave newbies about 1 million sp from the start. Sounds awesome right ?
But the measure had the exact opposite effect of what was intended. Because it was so easy to make an alt that was specialised and semi-decent from the start, people wouldn't bother with low sp newbies anymore. When you can grab a trial account and give it a buddy invite and train it for 21 days to help you out with all the little jobs that a newbie might do, what is the point of getting the guy that dosen't even have any experience or know what to train ?
I often check the recruitment channels and you can actually find a good corp now with less skill points then you could 3 years ago !

Let's get something straight: just because this game doesn't have classes that doesn't mean that there's no specialization or that you're meant to do everything. It's just that you customize your character the way you like. You're still making choices.

You are not meant to train everything you are meant to rely on other players for some of the things that need doing, that's what makes the eve economy tick and the universe such a lively place.
If training was much faster, all those cool jobs that people take for themselves and that others value and pay for would disappear and become something only alts do.
What is the point of being a miner or a hauler or a trader if the job is maxed out by any alt in a couple of months and performed adequately by a trial account.

As a rule, most of those changes that you think might favor newbies usually end up favoring established characters much more.

Decus Daga
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.29 11:31:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Decus Daga on 29/03/2011 11:35:38
I know what your saying maverick, i useto think the same thing(i had to start a new acct for this char, long story :P).

But in the end its a better system imho. Its nice knowing that you have achieved what the older players(chars) have with less SP.

Take this pilot for example, he trained straight into T3's(and worked hard in WH's to afford it, without selling plex's) - hell in this chars second week i was doing wormholes in a caracal - and he's doing really well in that T3 in combat, scouting and other uses ;)

It seems sometimes that looking at other chars ships(caps and super caps) and going "**** ill never be in that!", but remember you probably dont want to fly that( being stuck in the ship permanetly? no thanks, im only training carrier for that reason).

If you focus your skills(yeah can take new players a while to learn that, but ive taken many a new player under my wing and taught them to specialise, really doesnt matter WHAT - something they enjoy flying) and they catch up really quickly at that point.

At the end of the day id say high SP only gives players more choice, but a char who figures what what they want to fly early(or with alts) and specs up for it can be just as effective as a 2k6 player.

Yeah before someone says it yes, there will be support skills on a sub-1 year player that are missing, but ive noticed a lot of the time those 2%'s dont mean **** - you get angle, fire quicker, get a better transversal, design your ship better and you have the upper hand.

Thats the reason i stayed with eve after losing an acct to a hacker.

Dont boost new chars - ive seen peeps buy chars and its ended in tears - they dont have the experience with the ships, they dont know how the smaller ships work(imagine a projectile pilot not knowing how to get out of an orbit pattern from a lazy tackler, and not knowing how to single-fire at best transversal?) - those first few months are IMPORTANT.

Despite how easy it is in highsec doing missions, once pilots get into pvp the click and afk does not exist anymore, this makes the difference between SP less and less and tactics/intelligence/concentration/ability to resist panic come in more and more(of course dont include large fleet battles where ability to resist the urge to throw your monitor across the room count :P)

Long winded i know, but i hope i got the point across :)

- Decus Daga

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2011.03.29 12:33:00 - [24]
 

Just wanted to say that I've build effective level 3 mission runners (solo) on trial accounts.

You don't need a battlecruiser, and you don't need level 5 skills. And you sure as hell don't need 2-3 months of training.

Krist Valentine
Amarr
funmachine
Posted - 2011.03.29 13:22:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Krist Valentine on 29/03/2011 13:23:23
nobody's gunna buy into this, man. as has been said before, learning skills just got killed. that's a good move.
Quote:
But th newbie gets to wait many months training before putting his hands on a Battlecruiser or a Battleship with basic skills.
good. if someone jumps into a battleship after 4 months they deserve EXACTLY what comes to them...
Quote:
When you consider so many different aspects of EVE (mining, PI, PVP, Exploration...) its kinda hard for a new player to plan and train so much, with so little options.
wait, what? does it have 'so many different' aspects or 'so little' options? if someone wants to mine, they can be doing that pretty well after no time at all. if someone wants to blow stuff up, they can be doing that pretty well after no time at all. if someone wants to produce, trade, whatever, they can be doing them pretty well after no time at all. if someone wants to do EVERYTHING then they'll have to be patient accordingly.
Quote:
Yea those who spent 7 years with the actual skill training rate would feel robbed but, seriously? Someone with 1 year of skill training advantage would never be able to be reached from a starter because both would have their training skills shortened.
missing the point entirely. right now i've got an alt who is all but maxed in ruptures (missing a couple level 5 fiddly skills like AC spec) and who i'd feel pretty comfortable fighting almost any other cruiser pilot in. and how many SP does he have? about 7 million. if we speed up the training times like you're suggesting he could have been doing this within about 3 months.
people need stuff to work towards and goals to set themselves. even aside from the completely retarded lack of balance and unfairness that you're promoting, letting people get everything they wanted in no time at all would make people get bored or run out of ideas so much quicker.

go away.

Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2011.03.29 13:42:00 - [26]
 

It seems to me, the main difference is what you're going to do with the skills you have.

You can make a character fairly quickly that will be able to take on much of what high-sec has to offer. The PvE experiance has a lot to offer. However, a major part of this game are the low and null-sec areas where you're going to be facing PvP. That's where the SPs and charcter age matter. There's little chance that a 6 month-old player in a rifter is going to take down a 2 year-old character in a dramiel.

However, I don't believe at all that this is a bad thing. Those players who have put in the time deserve the benefits of that work.

Take a game like City of Heroes. At first, it used to take you a fair amount of time to get one character from level 1 to level 50. It used to be said that level 50 was the end, not the goal. Then they changed the game so a new player could grind out a level 50 character in a week or two. This alienated the player base that had spent a good deal of time (and subscription money) dto develop a well-rounded character. Since the game gave no decent reward for playing it long-term, many people stopped playing it long-term. I've only been playing EVE a few years. While it can be frustrating at times, I like that you get solid advantages for the time and money you spend.

I think the only thing I would change is allowing a player to train two out of three characters at once instead of just one. That way, if you want to experiment with different races or combat vs industry, you can excell in a couple of ares fairly quickly instead of getting bogged down.

Just my $.02



Krist Valentine
Amarr
funmachine
Posted - 2011.03.29 13:45:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
There's little chance that a 6 month-old player in a rifter is going to take down a 2 year-old character in a dramiel.
i know you're arguing on the same side as me here, but i'm just gunna say that this is is ALL wrong. there's little chance that a 3 year old player in a rifter will kill a 2 year old player in a dramiel. dramiels are king of frigs right now. a 6 month player in a rifter vs a 2 year old player in a rifter - sure, it definitely leans towards the 2 year old player but if the 6 month old guy plays his cards right it's definitely do-able.

Centus Commander
Posted - 2011.03.29 14:26:00 - [28]
 

I'm 4m SP and I'm in a Wolf w/ T2 AC's and T2 Armor Hards and also have T2 Medium Energy Turrets.
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Centus_Commander - For the Inquisitive

Sure I've played before on previous chars so I knew what I wanted to train for, but still

Aderata Nonkin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:02:00 - [29]
 

The only thing increased skill training would do is increase the amount of excess whining on the forum.

It's a sad fact that is not even debatable.

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:05:00 - [30]
 

These are the posts that happen when the op has no idea what hes talking about.


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