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Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.28 00:48:00 - [1]
 

What are the general principles for getting the best possible omni shield tank, on ordinary ships, and on ships with T2 resists?

I try various combinations of hardeners in EFT, or in-game, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. I know how resist stacking works, but have been unable to derive generally applicable principles from it.

Of course, I always fit 1xEM. I fly Caldari. We're the EM-hole dudes. That part is the no-brainer.

But what comes after that? I sit there with trial and error, try this, no try this, or this. 1xEM, 2xInvuln, works on Drake, but is that necessarily the best? If yes, why? What are the generally applicable rules of thumb?


Also, what constitutes a good omni resist? What should I strive for? What do I have to hit to earn bragging rights?

67% reduces incoming damage by a factor of 3. I can fit for 67% resist while drunk, probably. It's silly easy.

75% reduces incoming damage by a factor of 4.

80% by a factor of 5, 83.3% by 6. I get a carebear chubby when I think about just 80% omni, i.e. /5 incoming. Is my perspective skewed? Are my aspirations too low?

Alua Oresson
V I R I I
Posted - 2011.03.28 00:54:00 - [2]
 

Unless you are getting omni damage you generally shouldn't omni tank for PVE unless you know what you are doing. This of course doesn't include sleepers.

Generally speaking you want the highest resists that you can stand without comprimising damage. You want just enough tank to not die and run the rest into your damage for PVE.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.28 01:10:00 - [3]
 

I know that.

But (1) I'm lazy, and (2) Incursions do omni damage too.

Fulmar Muse
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.28 01:20:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Fulmar Muse on 28/03/2011 01:30:10
I like this example

drake @ BC IV

7x heavy missile launcher II

2x LSE 2's (if u can't fit, use regoliths)
2x(or 1x if u want to fit limited ewar) Invulnribilty Field II
1x Photon Scattering Field
1x Y-S AB or Y-T MWD

3x Ballistic Control System
1x Damage Control

1x Thermal rig
2x Medium Core Extender

All of your resists will be 72%+.. use rigs to patch things that need light buffing, use mids for patching big blarring holes.

Edit: get yer ass either in a tengu / NM / mach / nighthawk /(nicely fit)raven / CNR / basi / schimmy / sleipnir / rattle / loki / vulture /mael / vindy... and don't use active tanking.. buffer it out as much as possible.

regardarinos
Muse

Amelia Lime
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:13:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Amelia Lime on 28/03/2011 02:13:21
AFAIK the omni damage that incursions do is to your lowest resist, so you want to aim to get your lowest as high as possible without worrying about the rest, as long as they are higher.

With a drake you'll probably find that thermal will be the lowest as you sure as hell want to patch that EM hole if you want to last more than a handful of seconds.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:21:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Amelia Lime
Edited by: Amelia Lime on 28/03/2011 02:13:21
AFAIK the omni damage that incursions do is to your lowest resist, so you want to aim to get your lowest as high as possible without worrying about the rest, as long as they are higher.


But if my EM is 55% and my thermal is 65%, e.g., then I'm (probably) better off fitting an invuln, rather than an EM hardener.

One question is, how much lower should my worst resist be, relative to my 2nd worst, before I plug it with a damage-specific hardener instead of an invuln?

Is there a superfast-to-use resist compare tool? It ain't EFT. Switching out resist modules is slow and cumbersome in EFT.

Fulmar Muse
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.28 03:11:00 - [7]
 

1 x active hardener II @ 55% = 55% shields if there is no native resist
if u added another the 55% would only apply to the remaining 45% and so on.. so at 90%, you'd only be getting an extra 5.5% = 95.5%

I hope this becoming clear.

Use the drake I supplied, it's practically a perfect incursion drake.

Regards
Fulmar



Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.28 03:28:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Fulmar Muse
1 x active hardener II @ 55% = 55% shields if there is no native resist
if u added another the 55% would only apply to the remaining 45% and so on.. so at 90%, you'd only be getting an extra 5.5% = 95.5%

I hope this becoming clear.

Use the drake I supplied, it's practically a perfect incursion drake.


1. I know how resists work, including how resist stacking work.

2. I didn't ask for Drake-specific advice, I asked for generally applicable principles. I know how resists work, but I cannot see a way to formuate generally applicable principles from that knowledge.

Fulmar Muse
Caldari
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:06:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Fulmar Muse on 28/03/2011 05:27:07
U can't tell, but i've edited this like twice already... TWICE :D
Edit: thrice

bugger omni


PS: wat the bloody hell is the time?


FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:38:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Salpad

2. I didn't ask for Drake-specific advice, I asked for generally applicable principles. I know how resists work, but I cannot see a way to formuate generally applicable principles from that knowledge.


Generally you want to avoid fitting 3 and more modules giving same resist so you even out your resists with specific hardeners and then put invulns to raise all resists.
For Drake it usually results in EM hardener + 2 invlns or EM+thermal+invuln
Also fit damage control, its bonus may be small, but it is lowslot and not subject to stacking penalty

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.28 09:06:00 - [11]
 

Quote:
2. I didn't ask for Drake-specific advice, I asked for generally applicable principles. I know how resists work, but I cannot see a way to formuate generally applicable principles from that knowledge.

If you want highest resists it depends alot on ammount of mid slots and rig slots you can use for your tank. If you want some kind of general fitting independent of native resists (so t2 resists) and ammount of slots available then I got some bad news for you: that is not possible. If you just want high omni resists launch EFT, try some combinations, and depending on your demands compare how high the lowest resist is/how high the average resist is (easy to see using EHP, if your raw HP doesnt change, although of course raw HP is usually also a factor in fitting).

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.28 14:23:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: FlameGlow
Generally you want to avoid fitting 3 and more modules giving same resist so you even out your resists with specific hardeners and then put invulns to raise all resists.
For Drake it usually results in EM hardener + 2 invlns or EM+thermal+invuln
Also fit damage control, its bonus may be small, but it is lowslot and not subject to stacking penalty


That's the oe principle I tend to use already, never to fit 3 resists of the same kind.

Drake gets a fair omni from EM+2invuln, but what about ships with T2 resists?

And yes, slot usage is a factor. It's probably possible to get 90% as my lowest resist if I'm willing to spend a lot of slots, but I'd prefer to use only a few slots.

Fitting DC makes sense to me. It's cheap to run (0.03 cap/s), helps save my ass if I get in trouble because it also improves my armour and hull EHP so I hve more time to warp out, and I find LOW slots to be more flexible than MID lots - I can always fit one BCS less in order to fit a DC.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.03.28 16:34:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Aamrr on 28/03/2011 16:42:28
Originally by: Amelia Lime
Edited by: Amelia Lime on 28/03/2011 02:13:21
AFAIK the omni damage that incursions do is to your lowest resist, so you want to aim to get your lowest as high as possible without worrying about the rest, as long as they are higher.



This is absolutely false. Incursions and Sleepers are the same. They have lasers that do half/half-EM/Therm, and they have missiles which do half/half-Kin/Exp. If the enemies seem to "adapt" to your weakest resist, it's only because you naturally take more damage from the source you're not tanking properly.

Missile damage generally comes from torpedoes, so the smaller your signature radius, the more you need to weight your resists toward the lasers. Obviously, the reverse is true as well.

God, when will that misconception die? Run some of the things before you spread misconceptions like that. Oh, and the ONLY reason you fit a damage control to an Incursion drake is because the 4th ballistic control does so little on a ship with DPS that low and resists are better than a power diagnostic.

Originally by: Salpad

That's the oe principle I tend to use already, never to fit 3 resists of the same kind.



A good general rule, but there are exceptions. Take a look at T2/T3 Caldari ships some time -- a resist tank will fit either 1x photon and 2x invulns or 2x photon and 1x explosive, depending on whether or not they're getting gang links. In either case, there's 3 modules on the EM-resist stacking chain, and it is absolutely necessary.

Similar logic follows for Gallentean ships and their explosive resists.

Originally by: Salpad

Fitting DC makes sense to me. It's cheap to run (0.03 cap/s), helps save my ass if I get in trouble because it also improves my armour and hull EHP so I hve more time to warp out, and I find LOW slots to be more flexible than MID lots - I can always fit one BCS less in order to fit a DC.



Again, a good general rule, but there are exceptions. Take a look at a T3 ship some time. Not only are their slots reconfigurable as you change subsystems, sometimes giving you opportunities like swapping DCs for Invulns, but they have no structural hit points to speak of -- and resists only help when there is actually hit points to apply them to.

More often than not, a damage control should NOT be fitted to a T3 ship. If it is, it's only because the stacking penalties are severe enough that DC2 gives more. This can occasionally happen with an armor tanker (DC gives 15% resists and is only competing with a 25% from an EANM), but will almost never happen with a shield-Loki or Tengu (12.5% resists vs. an invuln's 30%).

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.28 22:47:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Salpad
That's the oe principle I tend to use already, never to fit 3 resists of the same kind.



A good general rule, but there are exceptions. Take a look at T2/T3 Caldari ships some time -- a resist tank will fit either 1x photon and 2x invulns or 2x photon and 1x explosive, depending on whether or not they're getting gang links. In either case, there's 3 modules on the EM-resist stacking chain, and it is absolutely necessary.


Sorry, I meant 3 modules of the same kind. Never fit 3xEM, never fit 3xInvuln.

Overlapping resists, so you have 3 modules that give +EM is often fine, as long as at least one of them also hives something else.


 

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