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Dulcia Anduin
Posted - 2011.03.28 00:21:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Dulcia Anduin on 28/03/2011 00:26:47
Originally by: Axemaster
To be honest, I think that Supercarriers and Titans should be removed from the game entirely. They've been nothing but trouble since their inception. They have been a very destabilizing influence on the game.


This is true, unfortuantely the toys have been given out and they (most likely) will not be taken back.

@Geralden, Your colition has hundreds of supercaps and their recorded kills and losses are public. You might want to consider checking those out.

I likegirls
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.28 01:01:00 - [32]
 

Neut and bump the super carrier? you don't even need a hic.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:00:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Dulcia Anduin
If drone regions are boosted, isn't it logical they'll suffer even more invasion attempts?


Nope. The only bloc capable of taking on the Dronerussian Federation is the Northern Coalition and they literally gave up in their last invasion because they A) lost Venal's tech moons and B) couldn't find enough allies, renters, pets, etc. to fill the regions.

Quote:
The entire idea behind the change was to force more conflict into areas that were simply static fortresses cranking out supers from bot income. Assuming there is a two-front war on bots and static isk-fountains all over 0.0 I think it's illogical to assume the outcome will be more supers.


A pair of Drakes running high-end anoms in the Drone Regions for about a week (a few hours daily) will give you enough minerals to produce a supercap. With the proposed change, the better truesec will have more high-end anoms. The Drone Regions have some of the best truesec in all of New Eden. The side producing the most does not pay for the supers, it builds them for itself at cost.

And with the only counter to supercaps being more supercaps, you can see that Fortress Drones is gonna have higher walls than before, not lower.

Zeerover
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:19:00 - [34]
 

Only thing wrong with super-carriers is their ridiculous hit points.

I don't mind having a hard time dealing with their dps (our guardian supported fleets have several times held the field vs fleets including 5+ SCs), but when we do get the best of them, they'll just log off and have enough hit points to wait out the 15 minutes, which is frakked.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:13:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: I likegirls
Neut and bump the super carrier? you don't even need a hic.
Laughing

Nano J
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:37:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: I likegirls
Neut and bump the super carrier? you don't even need a hic.
Laughing


Laughing

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:20:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
And with the only counter to supercaps being more supercaps, you can see that Fortress Drones is gonna have higher walls than before, not lower.

You are basing your projection on the assumption that anomalies is the only change being planned.
There is a high probability that CCP will attempt to create a sovereignty system where one ship type is not all one needs and where a massive blob will have limited use.

PS: Drone Regions have always been the capital (now super-capital) nursery of Eve; Minerals without mining? Yes please!
Fixing that particular discrepancy is easy, change the loot tables for rogue drones or the reproc output.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: I likegirls
Neut and bump the super carrier? you don't even need a hic.
Laughing

'Nuff said Very Happy

Outouchmatralala
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:40:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I've talked to people that have gotten away from 6 HICs in low sec through a combination of neuts, ECM drones, and remote ECM burst.

-Liang


Those are some fail hic pilots then. Learn to eve.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.28 08:23:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 28/03/2011 08:25:46
Edited by: Target Painter on 28/03/2011 08:24:10
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

You are basing your projection on the assumption that anomalies is the only change being planned.
There is a high probability that CCP will attempt to create a sovereignty system where one ship type is not all one needs and where a massive blob will have limited use.


By all means, point me in the direction of the devblog where they indicate a nerf to supercaps and an overhaul to the Dominion sov system.

Also, neuts shouldn't be stopping your HICs from holding tackle, learn to fit a goddamn HIC. Neither should ECM bursts either, but some people honestly forget to fill their non-tank slots with ECCM or sensor backups.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.28 09:43:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
By all means, point me in the direction of the devblog where they indicate a nerf to supercaps and an overhaul to the Dominion sov system.

It is right there in blog that has all the fatties in null climbing up the walls in impotent emo-rage
Quote:
What's next?

You're seeing this first because it was an obvious target that's relatively easy to implement. We're conducting an ongoing review of nullsec issues at the moment, with items on the agenda including force projection tweaks, conquest mechanic adjustments and improvements to the nullsec industrial landscape. Keep your eyes peeled for more updates as the year progresses, and let us know in the comments if there are any other areas in need of some love that you'd like to see brought to the top of our priorities.

Originally by: Target Painter
Also, neuts shouldn't be stopping your HICs from holding tackle, learn to fit a goddamn HIC. Neither should ECM bursts either, but some people honestly forget to fill their non-tank slots with ECCM or sensor backups.

If you don't have a blob you won't kill an SC in low-sec much less multiple, period. Even the 500+ man OMG-Lag fights that happened recently with almost nothing but supers deployed only a dozen total were killed.

Even if we were all fitting gods like you and dice rolls always came out in our favour then the SC logs out and disappears long before his ship is ever in real danger.

It is as if CCP specifically designed SC's to be blob-tools; Massive EHP, drones for damage, eWar immunity and superb scaling.


Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.28 12:00:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 28/03/2011 12:01:49
Edited by: Target Painter on 28/03/2011 12:00:39
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
It is right there in blog that has all the fatties in null climbing up the walls in impotent emo-rage


I see... but the timeline on that is described as over the course of a year.

Quote:
If you don't have a blob you won't kill an SC in low-sec much less multiple, period. Even the 500+ man OMG-Lag fights that happened recently with almost nothing but supers deployed only a dozen total were killed.


I was there for two of them. In both cases **** stopped dying because literally thousands of fighter bombers were putting out tens of thousands of missiles all on the same grid. Other people had no problems killing 8 supercarriers in something like 20 minutes.

Quote:
Even if we were all fitting gods like you


It's not being a "fitting god", it's common sense! Carriers, supercarriers and titans all carry heavy neuts, put a cap booster on your HIC. You can't bubble in lowsec, fill your non-tank slots with ECCM to limit the effectiveness of suicide Falcons and ECM bursts. I mean, what else are you going to put there? A regular point? Damage mods for max deeps?

Quote:
the SC logs out and disappears long before his ship is ever in real danger.


That's a separate issue from holding tackle. I can understand smallish pirate alliances not being able to have a handful of dreads on standby. Realistically, though, I don't think it will remain a problem much longer if supercaps continue proliferating; eventually your average pirate alliance or FW will have enough supers of it's own that beating the timer won't be a realistic option.

Quote:
It is as if CCP specifically designed SC's to be blob-tools; Massive EHP, drones for damage, eWar immunity and superb scaling.


I'm not going to sit here and pretend I knew how things would turn out, but yeah, we complained that we wanted Capitals Online gone and CCP gave us exactly what we wanted. And what we deserved ugh.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.28 14:02:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 28/03/2011 14:03:14
Originally by: Target Painter
I see... but the timeline on that is described as over the course of a year...

Yeah well, what do you expect? Null is well and truly broken.

More capitals than Rifters in space (QEN is scary), EHP based sov system, huge reinforcement timers, passive incomes, teleportation, local, limited industry etcetera.

With the new deployment system they created with/for Carbon they'll be able to change things incrementally and tweak as they move forward.
Time it will take depends on how much they are willing to dip into the cess-pool (ie. player-base) to search for nuggets I think.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.03.28 15:25:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Target Painter

It's not being a "fitting god", it's common sense! Carriers, supercarriers and titans all carry heavy neuts, put a cap booster on your HIC. You can't bubble in lowsec, fill your non-tank slots with ECCM to limit the effectiveness of suicide Falcons and ECM bursts. I mean, what else are you going to put there? A regular point? Damage mods for max deeps?


I don't want to sound obtuse, but you guys make it sound like its just a matter of changing the fitting around, and voila'! An Onyx, the highest sensor strength HIC in-game, even with tank-gimping amounts of ECCM mods on it will be jammed 50-75% of the time by a single remote ECM burst. Neuts aren't the problem--they're countered easily enough, but the Remote ECM burst is not.

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.28 16:09:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Axemaster
To be honest, I think that Supercarriers and Titans should be removed from the game entirely. They've been nothing but trouble since their inception. They have been a very destabilizing influence on the game.


They aren't the problem, its there availability that is. Because of things to be discussed else where we we hope CCP are dealing with, more and more people can obtain these ships. They need to go back to being the exclusive and hard to get ships alliances prize. When you here of someone ratting in a Titan on an intel channel, you know there is something wrong.

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.03.28 16:43:00 - [45]
 

Edited by: Hekira Soikutsu on 28/03/2011 16:43:42
Originally by: Von Kroll
Originally by: Target Painter

It's not being a "fitting god", it's common sense! Carriers, supercarriers and titans all carry heavy neuts, put a cap booster on your HIC. You can't bubble in lowsec, fill your non-tank slots with ECCM to limit the effectiveness of suicide Falcons and ECM bursts. I mean, what else are you going to put there? A regular point? Damage mods for max deeps?


I don't want to sound obtuse, but you guys make it sound like its just a matter of changing the fitting around, and voila'! An Onyx, the highest sensor strength HIC in-game, even with tank-gimping amounts of ECCM mods on it will be jammed 50-75% of the time by a single remote ECM burst. Neuts aren't the problem--they're countered easily enough, but the Remote ECM burst is not.


Still is has a 5 min cooldown IIRC so if you have a couple of HICs spread out shouldn't be too much of an issue.

And maybe for neuts you could also orbit at close to max HIC point range out of neut range? IDK really this is all napkin theorycrafting for me.

Astrum Obtutus
Caldari
Sarcastic Bastards
Means TO Oppression
Posted - 2011.03.28 16:54:00 - [46]
 

Quote:
If something cannot be built in a certain part of space, it should not be allowed (or be severely gimped) in said space.
(Ref: Titan DDD, Capitals in high-sec, Fighter assignement etc.)

Personally partial to removal of eWar immunity while in Empire sovereign space.


Makes sense but also makes it slightly more difficult to move a supercarrier around when there is a lowsec shortcut. The removal of ewar immunity is in line with no DDs in lowsec.


I am pretty new, so enlighten me if this seems silly, but... if the removal of ewar immunities occurs in low sec, than wouldn't that effect how players attack and defend systems with regards to what area they stage out of? If Alliance A wants to Attack Alliance B, but B has a superior number of super capitals, Alliance A would want to engage B in low sec as much as possible. You know situations like that. Being a newer player I can't really know what all the impact of that sort of fleet sized warfare could have , but it seems to me there at least will be some significant side effect to that idea.




Noisrevbus
Posted - 2011.03.28 16:56:00 - [47]
 


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.03.28 17:10:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Astrum Obtutus
I am pretty new...

We all were at one point Very Happy

Yes, it would benefit an inferior entity if they could bushwack a hostile capital fleet away from their home.
We get that once in a while as it is but the casualties are usually very, very light due to the absence of reliable and numerous tackle .. bubbles really do make a huge difference when dealing with eWar immune hulls but no one wants those evil things in low-sec hence the suggestion to gimp the immunity instead.

Your A would need to present a target juicy enough for B to commit their supers though, which can be a problem in and of itself .. it is most often accomplished by spies/scouts advising hostiles of planned mass-movement but the old fashioned bait-trap still lives even on that scale.

Side-effects are limited to super pilots being forced to consider their actions more thoroughly.
Numbers of simultaneous jump-ins might go up but the SC blobs rolling around in low-sec are already well beyond anything conventional fleets can handle so adding a few won't make a lick of difference.
It will punish the SC cowboys and other bored owners looking for a quick gank to pad their failing killboard stats.

Barry Buttplug
Posted - 2011.03.28 17:34:00 - [49]
 

All I hear in this thread is "whing whinge whinge"

if somebody took the initiative to pull a carebear alliance together a few years ago and make huge supercap fleets down the line, then bloody hell, that's pretty cool.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.03.28 17:41:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Hekira Soikutsu


Still is has a 5 min cooldown IIRC so if you have a couple of HICs spread out shouldn't be too much of an issue.

And maybe for neuts you could also orbit at close to max HIC point range out of neut range? IDK really this is all napkin theorycrafting for me.


Like I said, neuts aren't the issue. A SC could theoretically fit multiple remote ECM bursts and escape from a multiple number of HICs.

Izuru Hishido
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.03.30 03:00:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Dulcia Anduin
....But the bigger issue is the sheer amount of resources sov. powers can bring to bear....



NERF TECHNETIUM!

/half of problem solved

Sabine Demsky
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E
Posted - 2011.03.30 14:32:00 - [52]
 

I would like to see something changed for a SC when it is in lowsec. Either it can be pointed by normal points (20+?), no remote ecm burst, or maybe have it so if it logs off in lowsec with aggression it has an hour instead of 15 minutes? SC can warp in or get cynoed into anything 20 -30 size and be fine, unless you are ready to get hot dropped by one, you wont catch it. Also making a ifinite point that could fit on a carrier would be awesome, make SC pilots think about every carrier they hot drop. I think that would make this whole SC lowsec fotm thing slow way down. If a carrier can simply infinite point the SC and triage that means no getting away from carrier except from good bumping and nuets. (yes lots of dmg could do it to)

Also ccp wont get rid of botters because they buy alot of plex's which means more money for them for music videos.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:34:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Sabine Demsky
I would like to see something changed for a SC when it is in lowsec. Either it can be pointed by normal points (20+?), no remote ecm burst, or maybe have it so if it logs off in lowsec with aggression it has an hour instead of 15 minutes? SC can warp in or get cynoed into anything 20 -30 size and be fine, unless you are ready to get hot dropped by one, you wont catch it. Also making a ifinite point that could fit on a carrier would be awesome, make SC pilots think about every carrier they hot drop. I think that would make this whole SC lowsec fotm thing slow way down. If a carrier can simply infinite point the SC and triage that means no getting away from carrier except from good bumping and nuets. (yes lots of dmg could do it to)


Just make it simple, and get rid of Super Caps from low-sec all together. To quote X Gal, if you can't build it in low-sec, you can't fly it in low-sec.


Sabine Demsky
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:45:00 - [54]
 

Could call for a some sort of t2 carrier with half the ehp and maybe can use alot of drones and fighters like the SC but no fighter bombers? also no ecm burst. discuss

Hekira Soikutsu
Posted - 2011.03.30 18:56:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Sabine Demsky
Could call for a some sort of t2 carrier with half the ehp and maybe can use alot of drones and fighters like the SC but no fighter bombers? also no ecm burst. discuss



Might want to elaborate. What about RR capabilities? Does sound like the bane of subcap fleets with that many fighters tho.

Sabine Demsky
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:15:00 - [56]
 

Essentially it would be like the old Mothership, except no fighter bombers, no ecm burst, and it would lets say allow 20 drones/fighters with lvl 5 carrier skill. It would have less ehp obviously and there would need a way to keep it tackled it should be able to get tackled by a point but i think it would need to be like 10 points or something. Bonuses would need to be decided.

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.03.30 19:41:00 - [57]
 

Those that hate are those that can't field them. <------ true talk.

Sabine Demsky
Failed Diplomacy
B A N E
Posted - 2011.03.30 20:35:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: freshspree
Those that hate are those that can't field them. <------ true talk.

Haha those who field them, field 6 or more at a time. No point in getting one unless other people you fly with have one.

Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
Posted - 2011.03.30 20:38:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: freshspree
Those that hate are those that can't tackle them. <------ true talk.


Fixed that for you...

Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
Posted - 2011.03.31 16:44:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Zeerover
Only thing wrong with super-carriers is their ridiculous hit points.

I don't mind having a hard time dealing with their dps (our guardian supported fleets have several times held the field vs fleets including 5+ SCs), but when we do get the best of them, they'll just log off and have enough hit points to wait out the 15 minutes, which is frakked.


Yeah, this. If the guy logoffskis (which, if I had 16+ bil on the line and no help en route, hell yes I'd log off. e-honoure be damned), you have 15 minutes to coordinate what amounts to burning through the ehp of a large POS ... in 15 minutes.


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