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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.03.29 14:55:00 - [1411]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
With the bot-nerfs coming, I can quite easily see how the rents can be quite hard to achieve.


LOL stopped reading after this. You really think CCP can stop the bots Laughing

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:00:00 - [1412]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
With the bot-nerfs coming, I can quite easily see how the rents can be quite hard to achieve.


LOL stopped reading after this. You really think CCP can stop the bots Laughing

That first sentence was a joke meant to entice people to keep reading my real argument... However yes... I believe CCP will be able to significantly curb Joe Six-Bot.

The RMT guys are however going to have to work for their money.

Skaarl
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:02:00 - [1413]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
With the bot-nerfs coming, I can quite easily see how the rents can be quite hard to achieve.


LOL stopped reading after this. You really think CCP can stop the bots Laughing


the bots are the only ones who benefit from this. plex wont be worth as much because there will be less players buying them(and yes i do expect a mass account cancelation as people drop extra accounts they cant afford.)

the botters and largest isk sellers in the game are in the drone russian areas, and they are the least impacted by these changes. they will end up being the go to way to generate extra isk for real money, and will benefit the most from the changes.

Omtaga
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:03:00 - [1414]
 

Gentlemen,

Thank you for taking the time to read my post. As posted, your intent is to create more 'interesting' 0.0 space by having alliances fight over better systems due to the spawning of anomolies.

You have not addressed nor corrected:
-The serious lag issues that still affect large fleet fights.
-Compensation for further aggrivating large fleet fights and reimbursing all players ships lost due to poor server performance.
-Not successfully posting a page concerning CCP's stance on reimbursement during large fleet fights. (No, a blank page is not acceptable, see GM ESKIMO's response to my petition where he linked http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blogbid727)
-Reimbursement to alliances of all sov structures and upgrades for combat sites in all systems that have currently acquired the better anomolies where they will not spawn after the change is made.

Thank you again for your time gentlemen,

Omtaga

Killin Kittens
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:04:00 - [1415]
 

With the bot-nerfs coming, I can quite easily see how the rents can be quite hard to achieve.

BTW, the past 3 years my corp has been in many 0.0 regions living on scraps if needed. But those were always non-renting relationships, and through those times we've been on the receiving end of a more powerful entity swinging its **** around. Yet not only did we survive, we prospered.

This change makes me happy because it nerfs renter-heaven, but boosts the hardy independents out to make their mark. The kind of corp we were back then.

If the above conversation represents reality, I say; GOOD. Get ****ed, have the renter paradise collapse, go back to high-sec and run those new dynamic effective quality agents. Leaving room for one, just one more corp of new but dedicated and resourceful players the chance of living in a backwaters system, gradually building their skill, ISK and connections as they climb up the foodchain...

It is quite frankly worth more than 10 carebear corps renting space from big alliance.

It is... What EVE is supposed to be.


Without spending billions on upgrades that are going to be worthless soon, I can see how you could prosper.

Word of caution... if you're having fun and making enough ISK to sustain it... don't let CCP know how you did it because they'll nerf that too.

BTW.. no botting here... I ran sanctums to buy my PVP equipment.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:05:00 - [1416]
 

Originally by: Cyrus Doul
starburst is a contradiction too! CVA would retake provi in a heart beat. It's their mother land and i doubt they care about 5 billion a month in so fees plus whatever they put in strat mod wise. When we rolled it originally every other system had a CSAA tower in there. The ones paying the bills were definately not doing it with ratting...
Did the math. To cyno gen, CSAA and JB all 84 systems cost 37 billion, thats 1 titan worth of profit per month. 7 or so for motherships. and we all know that those things sell like hotcakes.


Enjoy paying sov bills on all those stations, as originally was years ago.

Nurgl3
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:07:00 - [1417]
 

Edited by: Nurgl3 on 29/03/2011 15:10:35
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
Originally by: Sannye
Greyscale, dont think for a second that EVE is the only game on the market.

The way this change is beeing pushed through (in the middle of a CSM election) really tells us players that you really dont give a damn about our "feedback".

You messed up with dominion, and now your are removing one of the 2 items that actually worked in that fail of an update. The other thing that DOES work, is the fleetfinder - everyting else has been, and is, utterly fail.

Remove it - and remove EVERYTHING in the dominion patch. No ISK in upkeep pr system claimed SOV in. No upgrades to your system AT ALL!
POS will deciede who has sov.

If you remove one item, remove the lot. If not, then leave it alone.


Rollback to apoc.


Any one ever play warhammer online... it tried to ballance its pvp and failed untill the playerbase got ****ed and left.(i was one of them) and we left... remember ultima online... they made changes that made pvp geh... who els left that game (i was one of them) remember EVE online when they ****ed up the space where the pvpers mane the money they used TO pvp (who els left with me(im taking 7 accounts when i go)) im an avid gamer and i have more options for where to put my money than i can count on all the fingers and toes of all the people on every post in this forum. ive played to many games and stoped when pvp got laim and broken! or in this case YOUR MAKING IT HARD FOR US TO PVP BY CAUSEING A MASS EXODUS TO HIGHSEC!! If i wanted to play in highsec or lowsec why would i have all but one of my toons in nullsec and no toons in lowsec other than for moving my carrier(that i use to move... pvp ships) hell half the time i rat in pvp ships... make no mistake be it the new starwars game or the warhammer 40k game(yes im holding my breath) or diable 3(yes ive been holding my breath sence d2 patch 1.09D went away(also another game i left after a "fix" broke it... CCP I wont even buy your dust game and i will let my friends know whats up with HOW CCP does thier games.(btw ive not heard one person bring this game up excited about its development irl ONLY PEOPLE WHO GET A LITTLE STIR CRAZY ARE YOUR CURRENT EVE PLAYERS... this move is a bad bis move... i think ima GOOGLE your CEO and ask him wtf hes doing to this game.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:15:00 - [1418]
 

Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Commander Hold
Yes I am sure the only ones that are happy are the old holders of provi. Once again they will be able to claim their useless space back with out contest. Its the only way they can get it back is when its useless and no one wants it.

That is a contradiction... If no one is interested in the space, then no one is willing to claim it.


For some players, claiming space is the only motivation they need to live there. Deal with it. Cool

Ravora
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:16:00 - [1419]
 

Edited by: Ravora on 29/03/2011 15:18:05
I want an answer of CCP to following Questions:

- How are the small alliances (the Alliances u wanted to go into 0.0 with Dominion), of which most of them will live in worthless Space, supposed to defeat big Alliances like Red Overlord, Razor etc. which posses alomost infinite Ressources?

- Why should big Alliances that are holding already enough valluable space, go for other space?

- How should the little man pay the Ships for PVP if there's not much money to get in HiSec and 0.0?

- Do you want the Casual-Gamers to farm all the time (for PVP) they're spending on EVE?

- Are this changes a good way to solve the BOT-problem, which are suspected to run exactly in these Regions that u want to boost?

- Do you think it's FUN to get in a large fight while the LAG IS NOT FIXED?

- Do you think the Players do PVP because they have to or because they want fun?

What are you aiming for? This change isn't leading into more Wars (like thousands said before me). What's the bigger Picture?


Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:16:00 - [1420]
 

Originally by: Killin Kittens
BTW.. no botting here... I ran sanctums to buy my PVP equipment.

It was possible to make billions in pre-Dominion nul-sec even if it wasn't the best true-sec, though I can understand many of the posters in this thread never got to experience that.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:19:00 - [1421]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
That is a contradiction... If no one is interested in the space, then no one is willing to claim it.


For some players, claiming space is the only motivation they need to live there. Deal with it. Cool

If 'claiming space' is (the only) motivation, then by definition they are interested in the space.

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:22:00 - [1422]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
starburst is a contradiction too! CVA would retake provi in a heart beat. It's their mother land and i doubt they care about 5 billion a month in so fees plus whatever they put in strat mod wise. When we rolled it originally every other system had a CSAA tower in there. The ones paying the bills were definately not doing it with ratting...
Did the math. To cyno gen, CSAA and JB all 84 systems cost 37 billion, thats 1 titan worth of profit per month. 7 or so for motherships. and we all know that those things sell like hotcakes.


Enjoy paying sov bills on all those stations, as originally was years ago.


Wait there were sov bills on the stations? I thought they just worked like a tower did. i know with the current system you dont pay anything extra for them. i owned three in provi, and one in period basis and still only got charged 2 mil per day per system.

Caldari Meatbag
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:29:00 - [1423]
 

nice to see CCP totally ignored the views here... -2 accounts subscribed to eve...

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:47:00 - [1424]
 

Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 15:53:30
Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 15:51:32
For all you little whiners:

Take a look at older alli maps and wonder how all these small alliances managed to grab some space without the endless stream of mindless rats spawning out of thin air outside of belts.

Have a look in CAOD for the old maps yourself and stop the tears please...


Killin Kittens
Posted - 2011.03.29 15:52:00 - [1425]
 

Edited by: Killin Kittens on 29/03/2011 16:07:08
past situations are not relevant... different situations, different population densities.
live in the now.

Claire Auscent
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:13:00 - [1426]
 

It is maddening to think that Grayscale's response boils down to "cool story bro." That they completely disregard the opinions of the player base is one thing. To push this change through while pilots are coming back from FanFest (should be called The Great Reach-Around of 2011 from now on for what they're doing to us) and CSM is being reshuffled smacks of under-handedness.

To make such a change in the face of opposition is either bold or arrogant. I hope this is a bold move, I fear it is arrogant, short sighted and poorly conceived.

Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:17:00 - [1427]
 

Edited by: Super Whopper on 29/03/2011 16:23:23
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
Wait there were sov bills on the stations? I thought they just worked like a tower did. i know with the current system you dont pay anything extra for them. i owned three in provi, and one in period basis and still only got charged 2 mil per day per system.


Originally, when you owned those stations, several years ago, the system was different to what it is now.

Now you pay rent on stations. If you don't you lose the station. CVA shrank from holding most of the space to holding very few systems and stations. Dropping a station in every system was a good idea at the time, now you do it to bankrupt yourself, or if you really need it.

Someone once calculated how much it would cost CVA to maintain all those useless stations and it came to a lot more than they were earning. We were all waiting for CVA to lose all their stations, which they didn't.

Originally by: bitters much
Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 15:53:30
Edited by: bitters much on 29/03/2011 15:51:32
For all you little whiners:

Take a look at older alli maps and wonder how all these small alliances managed to grab some space without the endless stream of mindless rats spawning out of thin air outside of belts.

Have a look in CAOD for the old maps yourself and stop the tears please...




To all the clueless: moon distribution was different then.

David Hassan
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:27:00 - [1428]
 

Clearly once again CCP doesn't give a **** what their customers say.

Its pretty scummy that the Devs are trying to defeat player coalitions, rather than other players defeating them. Whats the point to a game where if you become too successful, the Devs will just raze whatever you built.

You tried to kill the Northern Coalition by painting a giant Technetium target on it, and it backfired. All you did was galvanize them.

The claim of lack of conflict in Null is utter bull****. Look at the changes on the map since dominion.

Vote with your wallets on this one.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:42:00 - [1429]
 

For big fights, move Tech moons to lowsec?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:49:00 - [1430]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
For big fights, move Tech moons to lowsec?


I'd rather you moved them to high sec. Wink

-Liang

Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2011.03.29 16:58:00 - [1431]
 

Originally by: Super Whopper
Edited by: Super Whopper on 29/03/2011 16:23:23
Originally by: Cyrus Doul
Wait there were sov bills on the stations? I thought they just worked like a tower did. i know with the current system you dont pay anything extra for them. i owned three in provi, and one in period basis and still only got charged 2 mil per day per system.


Originally, when you owned those stations, several years ago, the system was different to what it is now.

Now you pay rent on stations. If you don't you lose the station. CVA shrank from holding most of the space to holding very few systems and stations. Dropping a station in every system was a good idea at the time, now you do it to bankrupt yourself, or if you really need it.

Someone once calculated how much it would cost CVA to maintain all those useless stations and it came to a lot more than they were earning. We were all waiting for CVA to lose all their stations, which they didn't.




When Did they add having to pay extra for a station? I know the sov bill didnt change and when it shows you taking up an office slot in a station you own it doesnt charge you anything extra, you aren't even actually using a slot unless you press the rent button. Station or no station the sov bill is 2 million per day per system for a total of 2mil x 84 systems x 30 days in a month = 5040 million isk for all of provi with basic, no strat upgrade sov.

How stations work: Your corp gets all the isk from Market Orders being put up, the cost for a jumpclone, S & I fees, Mineral refine tax, docking fees, Ship repairs, and office rental. You do not have to rent an office in your own station even though the office tab makes it look like you do. You do not get the isk from medical clones.

Plus when my corp did own stations we would always rent ourselves an office, we get the money back instantly as 100 percent of the rental fee comes back to the owner of the station.

Only way to lose a station is to have it shot out from under you or have a **** corp member with station management roles and an even more **** alliance that wont give it back when the **** corp member transfers it to another in alliance corp.

Arela Xen
Gallente
Evoke.
Ev0ke
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:05:00 - [1432]
 

Revamp the way Technetium is used in the t2 production instead of taking away the small mans income for pvp ships...

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:07:00 - [1433]
 

Originally by: David Hassan
Clearly once again CCP doesn't give a **** what their customers say.





If CCP would listen to what the customers say, PVP would be non existent since ages.


VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:20:00 - [1434]
 

/me sits back and waits for the 'April Fools' from ccp Twisted Evil

Tania Russ
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:29:00 - [1435]
 

Edited by: Tania Russ on 29/03/2011 18:20:09
I think the real issues here are being skirted.

I am pretty sure that every major coalition group out there is supported by bots. Either ratting bots as documented recently so handily out in Drone space, or miner bots either in empire or nullsec.

It is this cheating, "free" income that makes PvP losses meaningless for the "power blocs." Sanctum and Haven income is the domain of the lowly few honest players who actually manually run these anomalies to make isk.

The part that makes my "BS-o-meter" really twitch is the fact that the trolls in this conversation who are pro-change are all themselves likely very similar to the normal pirate/griefer model, a big mouth hotshot PvP pilot noob-and-carebear calling while hypocritically supporting all their PvP activity with an alt-corp botter swarm mining away somewhere in Khanid.

CCP, you want to make nullsec more vibrant and make PvP losses have more sting? You want to break up the big coalitions?

1. STOP the BOTTERS. Remove the big alliances' secret money chain and they won't be able to afford that momswarm anymore.
2. Make the Dreadnought class ship what is was supposed to be: a badass. Make it 10x more effective against other caps and make it able to hit and pwn BSes. Immediately this ship class, accessible to all, becomes the de facto crapkicker of all low and nullsec, empowering pretty much anyone to go out and lay waste, thereby taking the power away from the NAPing, mom-blobbing current powers that be.
3. REMOVE the ability to AFK CLOAK.
4. Make moon goo deplete and make it migrate from moon to moon, anywhere in EVE. Suddenly you need to chase the good goo, and my little corp might luck out and have it appear in one of our "junk" systems just for fun, at least until someone comes along and kicks the crap out of us for it.

THere you go Greyscale, all your problems solved.


R0RSCH4CH
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:35:00 - [1436]
 

Quote:
CCP Greyscale is excited about the changes coming to anomalies. Read all about it here in his latest dev blog.


Well, maybe he is also excited if he finds his wiener every morning. Who cares what he´s excited about.

According to what i have read so far the majority of posters (which is not nessecarily the majority of players) deeply dislikes the upcoming changes.
I also cannot see any benefit coming from this.

Well all the good words, all the explaining and all the sane suggestions didnt mean anything to the Devs. Nice showing of a "f*ck you, we dont care what you say" Attitude. Fine for me. You can of course do that, dear Devs.

I just see it this way: If Volkswagen would recall the car i just bought and tell me that they will just equip it with two Wheels instead of four as they are hoping that this would have a positive impact on the CO2 Balance then that might be right as i couldnt drive with just two wheels. I still would show them the middle finger and go and buy a BMW.

What i want to say is: The power lies with us, the people. It always have and it always will. The only thing which will hurt CCP is if they dont get any money anymore from the customers. We are king and maybe its time to remember WHO pays for their living. They don´t support our style of playing? Why support them with our money anymore. You whole lot wont pay for something you don´t like (taxes and stuff left aside).

Nice work CCP, -3 Accounts. Summer is near, the Beach looks very tempting and after that Battlefield 3 is out. Guess i will invest the money i saved on a ranked server.

Last words to Greyscale: You maybe should rethink your motto you mentioned in your profile: "One half of game design is having solid, well-reasoned opinions about everything. The other half is figuring out why they’re wrong". You must be kidding me. Change it to "I dont ****ing care". And your Bio? "It turns out that if you don’t bother doing any homework at school, you can go on to study a subject with no obvious applications at a really good university and then end up designing computer games in Iceland. I am not a good role model" Yeah right. Explains a lot. Not doing the homework is what has happened here. To think something through is obviously a skill which you and your team are lacking.

Maybe history will prove you right an me wrong. Then i will be the first one to apologize.

Besoina
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:45:00 - [1437]
 

As it stands a corporation can plant themselves into any system in sov space, slap the upgrades on & have a place for their members to grind for isk in between cta's. Each system proudly "belongs" to a corp & they can grow their player base.

With the proposed changes, corporations can still plant themselves anywhere in sov space but won't bother with the upgrades if their system isn't viable, ergo can't sustain growth or maintain the same isk grinding requirements.

They are trying to force the player base to migrate into these lower sec systems where CCP have placed them in hard to defend corners of space, or strategically inconvenient. Their logic is that the abandoned systems will be occupied by newer corps or alliances wishing to move into 0.0. Although im not happy with the proposed changes, I can understand their logic. It's very similiar to how it was before, granting the lower sec systems the better dinner plate.

And like 1 poster mentioned, all it takes is 1 cloaky hot dropper to hang out in system to halt the entire operation. The grunts like me who only want to earn enough isk to field ships for ctas is gonna have to work alot harder at it, potentially it all depends on how internal alliance policies are structured.

We will have to wait & see.


Gabriel Grimoire
Amarr
Ascendent.
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:51:00 - [1438]
 

Originally by: R0RSCH4CH
Quote:
CCP Greyscale is excited about the changes coming to anomalies. Read all about it here in his latest dev blog.


Well, maybe he is also excited if he finds his wiener every morning. Who cares what he´s excited about.

According to what i have read so far the majority of posters (which is not nessecarily the majority of players) deeply dislikes the upcoming changes.
I also cannot see any benefit coming from this.

Well all the good words, all the explaining and all the sane suggestions didnt mean anything to the Devs. Nice showing of a "f*ck you, we dont care what you say" Attitude. Fine for me. You can of course do that, dear Devs.

I just see it this way: If Volkswagen would recall the car i just bought and tell me that they will just equip it with two Wheels instead of four as they are hoping that this would have a positive impact on the CO2 Balance then that might be right as i couldnt drive with just two wheels. I still would show them the middle finger and go and buy a BMW.

What i want to say is: The power lies with us, the people. It always have and it always will. The only thing which will hurt CCP is if they dont get any money anymore from the customers. We are king and maybe its time to remember WHO pays for their living. They don´t support our style of playing? Why support them with our money anymore. You whole lot wont pay for something you don´t like (taxes and stuff left aside).

Nice work CCP, -3 Accounts. Summer is near, the Beach looks very tempting and after that Battlefield 3 is out. Guess i will invest the money i saved on a ranked server.

Last words to Greyscale: You maybe should rethink your motto you mentioned in your profile: "One half of game design is having solid, well-reasoned opinions about everything. The other half is figuring out why they’re wrong". You must be kidding me. Change it to "I dont ****ing care". And your Bio? "It turns out that if you don’t bother doing any homework at school, you can go on to study a subject with no obvious applications at a really good university and then end up designing computer games in Iceland. I am not a good role model" Yeah right. Explains a lot. Not doing the homework is what has happened here. To think something through is obviously a skill which you and your team are lacking.

Maybe history will prove you right an me wrong. Then i will be the first one to apologize.


Signed.

Failing to listen to its player base is the mark of a failing dev team.

You guys make the WoT dev team look like punctual, high stepping boyscouts. Rolling Eyes

Omara Otawan
Posted - 2011.03.29 17:59:00 - [1439]
 

Originally by: Besoina

And like 1 poster mentioned, all it takes is 1 cloaky hot dropper to hang out in system to halt the entire operation.



This is likely gonna be a side-effect of having more people concentrated into 'good' systems.

But is it really that bad? It sure will hurt the carebear types that are unable to accept any form of risk whatsoever while grinding their isk, but lets be honest those dont belong into nullsec in the first place.

I've never given a damn about neutrals in my local, especially not since aligning to bookmarks became possible. But even before that feature, it just meant it was time to think about which inline safe I was gonna align to.

If anything, improving the ability to choke the life out of the enemy by disrupting their money making using sting tactics is a good thing.

Pariah Flori
Minmatar
KINGS OF EDEN
Posted - 2011.03.29 18:04:00 - [1440]
 

What a horrible idea.


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