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Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.27 16:49:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Camios on 27/03/2011 16:52:13
[delete please]

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.27 16:52:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Dynamic Agent Quality: This may have been discussed further by BFF in some roundtables, etc and I don't know anything about what might have been said there. I do know that in the PvE roundtable (hosted by Commie PInkos) that we talked about it.

The tl;dr of the discussion was that we liked the basic idea, but that it had far-reaching implications for mission running and the EVE economy as a whole, by extension. It also required significant programming resources (something we've traditionally not had much of).

So basically, it was a promising idea, but not something our team was capable of tackling any time soon.




You made me sad :-<

In my opinion the implications for mission running and economy would be good: a more dynamical universe!

I mean, take depletion/nuggets in PI: why it is good? Having to cope with changes, changes that are caused by your actions or the actions of others around you.

One of the major problems I see is the follow up of such a change; anyway I'm confident that a dynamic landscape can hardly be worse than the current situation.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.27 17:14:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Agent Division Changes (BFF & Commie Pinkos): Something we've wanted to do for a long time. We discussed this at FF in various panels and round tables. The change is actually a fairly simple one, and won't have a huge impact. It's more about reducing needless complexity than changing anything.



This sounds like a pretty reasonable change. :)

Quote:

Dynamic Agent Quality: This may have been discussed further by BFF in some roundtables, etc and I don't know anything about what might have been said there. I do know that in the PvE roundtable (hosted by Commie PInkos) that we talked about it.

...

Agent Quality Removal (Team BFF): It looks like we're going to pursue a different solution in any case, by removing agent quality entirely. Whether or not this will incorporate some dynamic agent quality system too is not something I want to speak definitevely on, but that is not my impression from Soundwave's presentation. My understanding is that all that matters now is the level brackets (1 - 5), security status (lower security agents are worth more) and skills, LP stores, etc.



I'd ask you what implications you saw from dynamic agent quality, but it sounds like it isn't going to happen as originally presented to us (though who knows until BFF comes out and talks!). Its a shame, I think - but I'll reserve final judgement until I see the dev blogs detailing the change. I look forward to Team BFF's information!

I guess if nothing else, this thread acted as a barometer for how a dynamic agent quality change would be received. /shrug Thanks for the info!

-Liang

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2011.03.27 17:14:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: sabre906

He only mentioned agent quality. Whether sec will be removed is unclear. "Tyrannis mission unbalancing" eliminated a big chunk of agents within 3 jumps to lowsec as viable agents. The handful of agents that are both in 0.5 sec system and not near lowsec are basically the same ones as highsec hubs we have now.


Ah, you're right. I misread. Probably a bit of wishful thinking, too.

Originally by: Camios
You made me sad :-<

In my opinion the implications for mission running and economy would be good: a more dynamical universe!

I mean, take depletion/nuggets in PI: why it is good? Having to cope with changes, changes that are caused by your actions or the actions of others around you.

One of the major problems I see is the follow up of such a change; anyway I'm confident that a dynamic landscape can hardly be worse than the current situation.


But if you think about it, even if all agents in a given area (say all of high-sec) are the same quality, there is still the potential for hubs to change based on what players are doing (unlike now, where most players gravitate towards those "good" agents).

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.03.27 19:42:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Dynamic Agent Quality:

So basically, it was a promising idea, but not something our team was capable of tackling any time soon.

Agent Quality Removal (Team BFF): It looks like we're going to pursue a different solution in any case, by removing agent quality entirely.

...rather than being limited to just a handful of locations by a system they have no control over.



Dynamic is a pointless idea. It doesn't solve anything and just adds needless chore to the player experience. There are enough chores in Eve as it is.

Removal of quality will create incentive for diffusion of population just as effectively as dynamic agents and with out the expense to code something.

Jason1138
Posted - 2011.03.27 19:49:00 - [126]
 

"Not really, no.

That's the difference between a 2-minute, always-blitz mission in 1.0 and a ˝-hour, highly farm:able one in 0.5. Quality alone does not create those kinds of differences (especially not after effective quality has been calculated)."


Tippia, you have ZERO idea what you're talking about. I have a Q-17 and a Q 18 in the same station and the difference in payout is huge. 2000 vs 7600 on the big missions with my skills. the difference in -20 and +20 will not be some tiny thing that you'll barely notice. this will screw up LP items price wise like you would not believe

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.27 20:19:00 - [127]
 

Ack, so dynamic quality is out again because it´s too hard to code, or rather not enough DEVs around to do it?
Not sure if I should be glad or sad, I think this(and the 0.0 sanctum/haven nerf) MAY have ended up the biggest boons to low sec.

BTW, Tip, you´re really on the wrong horse here. My one great agent gives me about the same RP than 2-3 of the bad ones combined, for the really big missions.
Agent quality is a major factor.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.27 20:24:00 - [128]
 

Oh what a shame. And pirates were already polishing up their gatecamps in anticipation of the carebear exodus to lo sec Laughing.

On a more serious note, thanks for the info, Dropbear! Overall, the ideas sound great.


Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships
Posted - 2011.03.27 22:15:00 - [129]
 

Mission hub nerf = ninja salvager nerf.

Seriously, we've been needing this for a long time - replace agent quality with a business metric. As agents get busier their rewards go down and the standing required to access them goes up, this is slightly difference from simply adjusting quality.

Of course, I'd prefer missions to be posted by agents in a simlar way to contracts, have rewards that work in a dutch auction kind of way. Mission gets posted and listed on some searchable UI, then as time goes by the rewards go up and the standings required go down. Then you get proper market behaviour for missions and the infinite well of isk becomes more dynamic, and more rewarding for those who choose to travel to the fringes of empire.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.28 00:22:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

It's more about reducing needless complexity than changing anything.

So we're fixing that. We also think a simplified division structure will make it easier for new players starting out get their heads around what types of missions are available.




Many thanks for taking the time to provide us with some concrete information.

So the primary goal of the agent change is to simplify things for new players? And not to adjust the economy or population distribution?


Quote:

I'll poke BFF to provide some more details and confirmation of that as soon as they can.


Please do. TIA.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:12:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

- Shirley Serious points out that this may put a cap on the number of people using the FW agents - and thus lower the number of total people participating in the FW.


Hardly. There are many, many unused or barely used L4 FW agents, due to the extreme effect of quality variance. A q18 FW agent gives 20k plus LP a mission, a q-18 can give as low as 3k, and consequently it's not even worth my time to go to all but 5 of the who knows how many total minmatar lv4 agents.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:17:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 28/03/2011 02:18:25
Originally by: Jason1138
Tippia, you have ZERO idea what you're talking about. I have a Q-17 and a Q 18 in the same station and the difference in payout is huge. 2000 vs 7600 on the big missions with my skills.
So in other words, it's not nearly the difference quoted. That one mentioned is the difference between a 2-minute, always-blitz mission in 1.0 and a ˝-hour, highly farm:able one in 0.5.

So yes, I do have quite a good idea what the difference are because I actually tested them including all the variables. You even proved my claim correct with your own numbers.

I take it you have ZERO idea what you're talking about as well?

Hesperius
Posted - 2011.03.28 02:53:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I guess if nothing else, this thread acted as a barometer for how a dynamic agent quality change would be received. /shrug Thanks for the info!

I'll cancel the party. Crying or Very sad

Written Word
Written Word's Tax Haven
Posted - 2011.03.28 04:51:00 - [134]
 

I like the change a lot, opens up a lot of nice options in 0.5/0.6 systems. Without dynamic quality, the hub behavior I think will just move to all the systems that are 0.5.

Quick questions. I was getting to point in my skillplan when I train the Connections skills.
Should I not purchase the books and train them now? Any idea when these changes are coming?

Dek'athor
Posted - 2011.03.28 05:46:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Dek''athor on 28/03/2011 05:47:54
Originally by: Shandir

Missions should give a reward equal to the secstatus of the system the mission is *in*.
A mission that is in lowsec should get a significant boost (0.4 = 50-100% more than a 0.5 mission)
Currently a HS mission runner who sees a LS mission will definitely reject it. What if the mission offered them a lot more reward. (With mission rewards/bonuses a small chunk of actual ISK gained, it may also need to be more than just the mission reward/bonus)


Not gonna happen. CURRENTLY there are level 5 missions, that offer 80k+LP and have lots of other goodies but are lowsec only. They are seldom ran since most of them require highly specialized PVE boats and a fleet of a few persons (thus splitting up any rewards 3-4-5 ways).

L4 missioners WILL still always decline lowsec missions (maybe save for a few courier ones), doubling or tripling the current rewards won't help unless the rewards for 1 mission = at least 10-25% of the cost of a missioning boat+fittings, i.e. in the 30-60 mil isk range. THAT is the only way to get the bears go to lowsec. And even then carepiwates won't have faction pimp kills to pad the killboards since most bears will run them in T1 BS's with T2 fittings

Widemouth Deepthroat
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:21:00 - [136]
 

I think if it is 0.4 to 0.1 it should have same bonus. Let the number/type of agents in systems make certain locations attractive, but same lp/reward for any low sec agent.

Mnengli Noiliffe
Posted - 2011.03.28 06:52:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 28/03/2011 06:59:49
I think there should be no difference between .5 and .9 or between 0.1 and .4 rewards.

I mean who cares if it's .5 or 1.0? it's either high sec or it isn't.

maybe use jumps distance from the mission to high sec as additional plus to make null sec missions more attractive.

As of the dynamic agent quality, I think it's very hard to balance this. For example, if for some faction there are more level4 agents per total amount of mission runners, then ALL these agents will be -20 quality eventually while it will be fine for some other faction with more agents per mission runner. It could be changed of course by affecting the quality differently depending on the total mission runners amount, but implementing this is not trivial. Also makes no sense, because :

Also, why would qualities float at all? Eventually, all agents will have the same quality, any smallest change of one agent will mean some runners will move to that agent to level the quality again.

Riveth
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:03:00 - [138]
 

As someone who isn't mission running. This has got to be one of the dumbest nerf-esqe ideas I've heard of yet. \o/

Right up there with 0.0 nerf.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:13:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 28/03/2011 07:14:08
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Agent Quality Removal (Team BFF): It looks like we're going to pursue a different solution in any case, by removing agent quality entirely. Whether or not this will incorporate some dynamic agent quality system too is not something I want to speak definitevely on, but that is not my impression from Soundwave's presentation. My understanding is that all that matters now is the level brackets (1 - 5), security status (lower security agents are worth more) and skills, LP stores, etc.

As for the security status (I assume you mean the sec. level of the system) counting, you really should replace that 0.0-1.0 nonsense with something else for this purpose.
Effectively, it doesn't matter the slightest if a system is 0.5 or 1.0, so why should it be worth more to mission in a 0.5 system?
It's the same with 0.1 and 0.4... There's essentially no difference between them.

Just have three sec. levels, high-, low- and null-sec for agents, and just let all agents of the same agent level in the same sec. level be the same. I.e. a L4 agent in 0.5 pays the same as a L4 in 1.0.

Maybe use LP/Reward multipliers like this:
High-sec: 1x
Low-sec: 2x
Null-sec: 3x

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:35:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Agent Division Changes (BFF & Commie Pinkos): Something we've wanted to do for a long time. We discussed this at FF in various panels and round tables. The change is actually a fairly simple one, and won't have a huge impact. It's more about reducing needless complexity than changing anything.

In the future, instead of having Security, Internal Security, Command, etc...there will just be one combat division. This means someone looking for combat missions will have a 100% chance of getting what they signed up for. Previously, the "pools" of missions available were slightly mixed, meaning the combat mission runner sometimes had a less than 100% chance in that situation.

I still wonder what wil happen to mixed mission type agents like personnel, advisory, public relations?
- Will we get 2 agents for those, 1 courier and 1 combat? Or will they be randomized, one half of them becoming couriers, the other half combat?
- And will courier mission really be courier and not "get the quafe ultra from the Serpentis base" or "bring the damsel from Kruul's base back to this station" couriers mixed in?
- What will happen to the .. connections skills?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.28 07:38:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Agent Division Changes (BFF & Commie Pinkos): Something we've wanted to do for a long time. We discussed this at FF in various panels and round tables. The change is actually a fairly simple one, and won't have a huge impact. It's more about reducing needless complexity than changing anything.

In the future, instead of having Security, Internal Security, Command, etc...there will just be one combat division. This means someone looking for combat missions will have a 100% chance of getting what they signed up for. Previously, the "pools" of missions available were slightly mixed, meaning the combat mission runner sometimes had a less than 100% chance in that situation.

So we're fixing that. We also think a simplified division structure will make it easier for new players starting out get their heads around what types of missions are available.

The Connections skills, which were built around the numerous old divisions will which now be compacted into just a few, are being changed in the way they work. Team BFF is handling this, so I don't know the exact details, but their basic goal with the skill redesign is to maintain an equivalent value from having those skills trained.



Probably it has already occurred to you but the day this change is implemented you need to completely redo the storyline agents.

Currently you can run missions for a combat agent and get a storyline from a non-combat agent. For guys running for non-combat agents the reverse could happen. Acceptable as you aren't running agents giving exclusively combat or non-combat missions.

When you will have the option to run exclusively for combat or non-combat agents, the storyline agents should reflect your choice.
so running for combat agents should give you combat storyline, running for non-combat agents should give you non-combat missions.

Probably the best option would be to keep a separate tally of the combat and non-combat missions and give a storyline every time you have done 1 missions for the same kind of agent.

Aside: thanks Liang for having started the thread for those of us that haven't been at fanfest.

Gorongo Frostfyr
Shimohi Heavy Industries
Posted - 2011.03.28 08:51:00 - [142]
 

and how does this make pve/missions less boring?

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.28 11:30:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Gorongo Frostfyr
and how does this make pve/missions less boring?


The background wallpaper changes every once in awhile.

RedClaws
Amarr
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.03.28 11:51:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 27/03/2011 13:47:28
Agent Division Changes (BFF & Commie Pinkos):
In the future, instead of having Security, Internal Security, Command, etc...there will just be one combat division. This means someone looking for combat missions will have a 100% chance of getting what they signed up for. Previously, the "pools" of missions available were slightly mixed, meaning the combat mission runner sometimes had a less than 100% chance in that situation.



Not having the chance of 100% of combat missions is great imo. If you happen to get a hauling mission you can simply decline it (every 4 hours without penalty). Many new players don't even know they can do this btw.

On the very odd occasion you get 2 unwanted missions in a row, you get the incentive to do something of the many other things you can do in Eve. It creates more immersion instead of this boring "push button, get rats" option.

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Dynamic Agent Quality: This may have been discussed further by BFF in some roundtables, etc and I don't know anything about what might have been said there. I do know that in the PvE roundtable (hosted by Commie PInkos) that we talked about it.

So basically, it was a promising idea, but not something our team was capable of tackling any time soon.



This is sad to hear, what Eve lacks most to become fully immersive is the dynamic value of things like truesec and agents. A changing world is what keeps Eve going, if things get stale people will get bored and leave.

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Agent Quality Removal (Team BFF): It looks like we're going to pursue a different solution in any case, by removing agent quality entirely. Whether or not this will incorporate some dynamic agent quality system too is not something I want to speak definitevely on, but that is not my impression from Soundwave's presentation. My understanding is that all that matters now is the level brackets (1 - 5), security status (lower security agents are worth more) and skills, LP stores, etc.



Sadly enough, this change dumbs down Eve a little bit more.
A bad quality 4 agent requires much less standings but also gives less profit. It makes a perfect step-up to high quality agent.

You can think of them as extra levels, players go from lvl 1 to lvl 2, then bad lvl 3 to good lvl 3 and then bad lvl 4 to good lvl 4 and finally lvl 5.

Thats 7 levels of agents! It feels that way to the player anyhow.

The thing I'm trying to say is: It isn't hurting anybody and it is adding some content to the agent system, why would you want to get rid of it?

If you keep removing little things like this you will end up making a game that makes you say "Wow I played for 3 years and never discovered this before!" to a game that is basically like Battlefield Heroes: Once you press play you've seen all there is to see.

Kenshi Riva
Amarr
Keiko Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.28 21:16:00 - [145]
 

Honestly, from my own experience I cannot understand the drama that is being made the high-sec borders. I've been running missions for an agent in a 0.5 systems with bordering low-sec for a while now and he send me into low-sec once in 30-40 missions so far, which I easily declined and received a dozen more missions in the high-sec systems after that - no more low-sec so far. Even if then you can always take the hit, that's the price you have to pay to fly in a system with 5-10 players in local and no lag/ninjas.

@Dynamic Quality:
I'm sad to hear that it won't make it into the game in the next months/years, would have been a very nice change and would have made new eden feel more alive.

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.03.28 22:07:00 - [146]
 

Quick update:

Connections skills will work exactly the same as before. Team BFF managed to simplify the system while retaining all the old functionality. Cool

As for storyline missions, we can't change them to fit the new divisions in the short term, since that would limit their variety even further after we've just started trying to increase the size of that "pool" of missions. Long-term though, we'd want to match the storylines up as well.

Dynamic Agent Quality is not something BFF will be taking on any time soon either,, so I'm guessing this just sprang up from a misunderstanding at a round table (or maybe over a beer or three with a dev somewhere).

The removal of agent quality is a recent decision as suggested earlier. Team BFF are still figuring the specifics out, so stay tuned for updates on that front.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2011.03.28 22:13:00 - [147]
 

What I don't like with the agent division changes is this: (on the rare occasion) I run missions, I do it in a hub of non combat agents, however they will always give me some combat ones (this is low-sec btw, I'm an outlaw) and I decline the rest.
With the change those agents are now useless for me.. and I highly doubt (I've never seen in the 2 years I've lived there) that anyone does mining missions in low-sec...
It is great for agents that really should be giving combat missions but don't though.


Also, will removal of agent quality make the agents Q20 or Q0 or what? Depending on what, it could be a low-sec/0.0 boost or a massive nerf...



Jack Gilligan
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.03.28 22:43:00 - [148]
 

One question I have is is this a nerf to already HQ agents, such as the Q20 one in Isinokka?

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.28 23:02:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear

Connections skills will work exactly the same as before. Team BFF managed to simplify the system while retaining all the old functionality. Cool



Yay for simplicity! :)

Quote:

Dynamic Agent Quality is not something BFF will be taking on any time soon either,, so I'm guessing this just sprang up from a misunderstanding at a round table (or maybe over a beer or three with a dev somewhere).



That's a shame to hear - I think it would have been pretty awesome.

Quote:
The removal of agent quality is a recent decision as suggested earlier. Team BFF are still figuring the specifics out, so stay tuned for updates on that front.


Excellent. Thank you so much for your diligence. :)

-Liang

Hesperius
Posted - 2011.03.28 23:13:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
That's a shame to hear - I think it would have been pretty awesome.

It was up there with the learning SP refund in terms of bringing the game up to date in my book. Now I want it!

Maybe now that the seed has been planted...


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