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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.03.26 04:10:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: TYR3L
On a side note, I'm wondering just how this is going to effect my passive R&D income. Shocked
It will probably go down, since you're most likely using the "good" R&D agents, just like everyone else, and that should reduce their effectiveness…

…but that depends on whether such dynamics are simply based on missions and on how many actually bother to do them (I have a feeling most do it completely passively and don't bother with the RP boosts).


depends on how they calculate how the agent is used. I really doubt most players go do their daily r&d agent. yea I'm getting RP from all the highest ones, but I almost never run the R&D missions. If they go purely on mission completions I'd think most R&D agents would go up to q20

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.03.26 04:26:00 - [92]
 

Much needed and long overdue change. Nice! Cool

Iamid Ichabod
Posted - 2011.03.26 06:32:00 - [93]
 

So, would this make social skills more, less, or no change in importance to income for missioners? I've never been a min/maxer on this so I'm curious? Though, I would be a little bit disappointed if Charisma based skills were being nerfed as it's already under utilized imo (and if it was a hit I'd say just remove Charisma altogether as it'd be even more useless an attribute).

Valhallas
Gallente
The Executioners
Posted - 2011.03.26 10:55:00 - [94]
 

The fact that some factions have less L4 agents in general really needs to be factored into the equation.

EG - lets says Gallente have 20 L4 agents and Amarr have 40, the 20 Gallente ones must be more resilient to quality drop off, or else the whole system is biased.

Also, what about the pirate factions based in 0.0 that are unplayable to the masses and only available to the select few. Maximum LP payout incoming I suspect.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.26 12:23:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Malcanis
So. Now mission-running is at least a partly competitive activity.

Watcha gonna do?


(My advice includes the word "adapt")

Dam, for someone who spends so much time in 0.0, you really have a hard-on for hi-sec mission runners.


I live in lo-sec. Changes in empire mission running are of extreme interest to me.

Sandrestal
Posted - 2011.03.26 12:32:00 - [96]
 

This is almost too funny the way CCP tries to jack the game around by dog humping the player base. So here we have agents drop in quality from over use? Well what is going to happen when the scheme CCP has for making sanctums/havens less available in null sec? Why if you are a player like me you will clone jump both your accts into high sec to do level 4 missions. So on the one hand CCP wants moar peeps in null sec yet takes away the incentive and in the process makes high sec mission running less attractive also. Seriously CCP, are you deliberately trying to go into a death spire or are you just so bleedingly myopic that that you can't see the road you are driving on?

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.26 13:37:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 26/03/2011 13:53:45
Originally by: Iamid Ichabod
So, would this make social skills more, less, or no change in importance to income for missioners?
More important.

They will now be the factor that lets you squeeze every last bit of payout from an agent, and will be the primary method to compensate for a slipping quality if you're stuck with a particular set of agents. Skills can also instantly turn a new and untested mediocre agent into a passable one — without skills, you'd have to grind all the way.

edit: What I'm trying to say in a rather confused manner is this: with static quality gone, skills will step in as the factor that provide a new kind of baseline for agents you haven't used before.

Kenshi Riva
Amarr
Keiko Enterprises
Posted - 2011.03.26 13:46:00 - [98]
 

Excellent change, CCP. This was long overdue and will make New Eden even more vibrant and dynamic. Well done! :)

Patri Andari
Caldari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
Posted - 2011.03.26 15:38:00 - [99]
 

Orcas and Orca alts should see a potential increase in value from this. Mobile bases will be the new black.





Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.03.26 15:44:00 - [100]
 

Almost makes me wonder if CCP has decided there's too much wealth in the game currently. Simultaneous nerf to both hi sec missioning and null sec complexes. Less cash makes it harder to replace the super expensive ships that aren't supposed to exist in the numbers they currently do. [/tinfoilhat]

Keep in mind though that depending on the rate at which the agent's quality rises/falls, this may actually end up as a BUFF to empire missioning. Obviously it's not likely to happen this way, but if the number of people missioning in motsu is less than the required amount to make the agent's quality fall and instead it rises, then this change is just more money for bears. Extreme example, I know, and CCP would be dumb to implement it that way. But I think it's safe to question whether or not the result will be a large pool of acceptably high quality agents, rather than the current status of a small pool of very high quality agents.

Or maybe I just don't understand the change :P

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.03.26 16:09:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington
Or maybe I just don't understand the change :P
Tbh, no-one understands the change yet because we don't really know any of the details required to do so.

Centri Sixx
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:21:00 - [102]
 

I was wondering this too. They need to get it on tranquility fast so people can see and evaluate it, because something like this can change the game past just missioning. Like Mr Smithington said, it could end up being a global wealth nerf, making people even less likely to PvP.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:43:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington
Less cash makes it harder to replace the super expensive ships that aren't supposed to exist in the numbers they currently do.

Less ISK will mean absolutely nothing for that...

What determines the availability of (super-)caps is the availability of the minerals used to build them. If ISK becomes more scarce in the game, prices will simply drop as each ISK is comparatively more valuable.

Also note that the ISK impact of this change (as people think it will be) is pretty minor. The bounties will stay the same, so it is only the mission reward money that'll get reduced.
It could well be that the total ISK supply will stay stable or even increase because of this as people will not spend as many ISK on LP offers (as they won't have as many LP to spend).

Speculation is very nice, but as we know basically nothing at the moment, nothing of what we say will have any relevance to what will actually happen, except by pure random chance.

Cool

Mister Agreeable
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:43:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Mister Agreeable on 26/03/2011 17:43:49
Originally by: Centri Sixx
it could end up being a global wealth nerf, making people even less likely to PvP.


It will absolutely be a global wealth nerf. But that has nothing to do with people being less likely to PVP, just less PVP in titans and more in Rifters.

Hashpipe Malone
Posted - 2011.03.26 17:52:00 - [105]
 

Mission runners will have to live a Nomadic lifestyle, following the better quality agents around.
This will probably be a good opertunity for Orca builders, Missioners gotta move all their stuff somehow.

Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.03.26 22:31:00 - [106]
 

I wonder what mixed mission type agents like Astrosurveying, Administration, Personnel and such wil turn into as they say agents will only give one type of mission in the new system?

Originally by: Sandrestal
So on the one hand CCP wants moar peeps in null sec

Where does it say CCP wants more people in nulsec?

Originally by: Hashpipe Malone
Mission runners will have to live a Nomadic lifestyle, following the better quality agents around.
This will probably be a good opertunity for Orca builders, Missioners gotta move all their stuff somehow.

I'll just park a hauler, salvager, boxes of ammo and a few shuttles at a bigger number of mission systems. I just thave to fly my mission ship there.

Dulcia Anduin
Posted - 2011.03.27 00:53:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Mister Agreeable
Edited by: Mister Agreeable on 26/03/2011 17:43:49
Originally by: Centri Sixx
it could end up being a global wealth nerf, making people even less likely to PvP.


It will absolutely be a global wealth nerf. But that has nothing to do with people being less likely to PVP, just less PVP in titans and more in Rifters.


Which is a good thing. F-ck supercaps.

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.03.27 03:42:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Straight Edged on 27/03/2011 04:18:51
A change in increase value of isk is not going to make super capitals more expensive.

Without a change in the fundamental value of ore/BPC's/PI items, super capitals arent gonna be made cheaper isk wise. at all.

A lack of isk in the system (or isk input) will simply drive down the price of super caps, as too little isk is chasing too much goods(or in this case, super capitals) as time goes on.

The winner? People who are holding cash, duh.

ACESsiggy
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.27 09:56:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: ACESsiggy on 27/03/2011 09:57:41
Informal communication network, in which ideas and information flow along the lines of command (the hierarchical levels) in the company's organization structure. Throughout the internal formal network, information flows in three directions. Downward communication flows from executives to employees, conveying executive decisions and providing information that helps employees do their jobs. Upward communication flows from employees to executives, providing insight into problems, trends, opportunities, grievances, and performance -- thus allowing executives to solve problems and make intelligent decisions. Horizontal communication flows between departments to help employees share information, coordinate tasks, and solve complex problems.

Every organization also has an informal communication network - grapevine - that operates anywhere two or more employees are in contact, from the lunchroom to the golf course to the company’s e-mail and instant messaging systems.

External communication flows into and out of the organization by both formal and informal means. Informal exchange can include social networking technologies (facebook, myspace, etc) to help businesspeople connect.

With this said, I would have to defer to external communication with a ton of speculation and gossip mixed in . Thank you for your time --ACES

Carebear 101

Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.27 13:20:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Alain Kinsella on 27/03/2011 13:22:02
Originally by: Tippia
edit: What I'm trying to say in a rather confused manner is this: with static quality gone, skills will step in as the factor that provide a new kind of baseline for agents you haven't used before.


Perhaps, but there's still a problem - there are currently seven 'agent LP boost' skills, but we're going to only have three mission divisions left (IIRC). This will require some existing skills to be re-worked, and probably the rest be reimbursed.

BTW, thinking about this more - it could be an interesting boost to the mining mission, and mining in general. If done correctly (yea, I know, :CCP:), they can balance out the ships needed for the various mission levels like they did for Courier.

A very basic example for minimum shiptypes:

L1 - mining frigate
L2 - mining dessie/cruiser, or any barge
L3 - Retriever (with T2 strips etc), or Covetor and above. Tanked (or good drone skills).
L4 - A rudimentary fleet (2+ boosting Covetor /w hauling/combat support, or 1 tanked Exhumer /w Orca).
L5 - A 'proper' fleet with actual tanked Exhumers and combat support (possibly including Logi)

[Do L4/5 mining missions even exist??]

Remember that mining missions do not generate minerals to market, only ISK and LP (possibly for ORE under this setup). If combined with access to the various ORE implants (through local LP stores) this could become an interesting incentive to real miners. As an added bonus, mining groups doing the L4/5 would get better experience toward 0.0/Lowsec style mining.

[Basically, I'm trying to see this as a possible Mining counterpart to what Incursions have done to Empire PvE. Unlikely I suppose, but would be nice if CCP considered it.]

CCP Dropbear

Posted - 2011.03.27 13:46:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 27/03/2011 13:47:28
Hey guys Smile

I thought some clarification might be useful. Just a small disclaimer though, I (usually) work for Team Commie Pinkos (the Content team in Atlanta), so I am a bit wary of speaking definitively on the changes being made by Team Best Friends Forever in Iceland as part of their "1000 Little Things" project. I'll try cover what I understand of the changes they are making, but honestly, I learned about this stuff as you guys did. My guess is they only committed to the changes very recently.

So...

Agent Division Changes (BFF & Commie Pinkos): Something we've wanted to do for a long time. We discussed this at FF in various panels and round tables. The change is actually a fairly simple one, and won't have a huge impact. It's more about reducing needless complexity than changing anything.

In the future, instead of having Security, Internal Security, Command, etc...there will just be one combat division. This means someone looking for combat missions will have a 100% chance of getting what they signed up for. Previously, the "pools" of missions available were slightly mixed, meaning the combat mission runner sometimes had a less than 100% chance in that situation.

So we're fixing that. We also think a simplified division structure will make it easier for new players starting out get their heads around what types of missions are available.

The Connections skills, which were built around the numerous old divisions will which now be compacted into just a few, are being changed in the way they work. Team BFF is handling this, so I don't know the exact details, but their basic goal with the skill redesign is to maintain an equivalent value from having those skills trained.

Dynamic Agent Quality: This may have been discussed further by BFF in some roundtables, etc and I don't know anything about what might have been said there. I do know that in the PvE roundtable (hosted by Commie PInkos) that we talked about it.

The tl;dr of the discussion was that we liked the basic idea, but that it had far-reaching implications for mission running and the EVE economy as a whole, by extension. It also required significant programming resources (something we've traditionally not had much of).

So basically, it was a promising idea, but not something our team was capable of tackling any time soon.

Agent Quality Removal (Team BFF): It looks like we're going to pursue a different solution in any case, by removing agent quality entirely. Whether or not this will incorporate some dynamic agent quality system too is not something I want to speak definitevely on, but that is not my impression from Soundwave's presentation. My understanding is that all that matters now is the level brackets (1 - 5), security status (lower security agents are worth more) and skills, LP stores, etc.

It won't eliminate hubs entirely, since people will still likely cluster around areas with many agents (which allows them to decline missions more easily) but it will help ease the stress on the worst-affected areas. I think, most positively, people will be afforded a lot more freedom in choosing where they want to run missions, rather than being limited to just a handful of locations by a system they have no control over.

I'll poke BFF to provide some more details and confirmation of that as soon as they can. Smile


Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.03.27 14:48:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 27/03/2011 13:47:28
Hey guys Smileawesome info




Thanks a ton Dropbear, always so much better to have real info then mere guesses. So it looks like the new mission hubs will be.. 00,5 systems in deep highsec. Arent you worried that now even more people will find those (hi emolgranlan) and make an even bigger congestion?

sabre906
Posted - 2011.03.27 14:48:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: sabre906 on 27/03/2011 14:52:10
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 27/03/2011 13:47:28
Agent Division Changes (BFF & Commie Pinkos): Something we've wanted to do for a long time. We discussed this at FF in various panels and round tables. The change is actually a fairly simple one, and won't have a huge impact. It's more about reducing needless complexity than changing anything.

In the future, instead of having Security, Internal Security, Command, etc...there will just be one combat division. This means someone looking for combat missions will have a 100% chance of getting what they signed up for. Previously, the "pools" of missions available were slightly mixed, meaning the combat mission runner sometimes had a less than 100% chance in that situation.

So we're fixing that. We also think a simplified division structure will make it easier for new players starting out get their heads around what types of missions are available.

The Connections skills, which were built around the numerous old divisions will which now be compacted into just a few, are being changed in the way they work. Team BFF is handling this, so I don't know the exact details, but their basic goal with the skill redesign is to maintain an equivalent value from having those skills trained.

Dynamic Agent Quality: This may have been discussed further by BFF in some roundtables, etc and I don't know anything about what might have been said there. I do know that in the PvE roundtable (hosted by Commie PInkos) that we talked about it.

The tl;dr of the discussion was that we liked the basic idea, but that it had far-reaching implications for mission running and the EVE economy as a whole, by extension. It also required significant programming resources (something we've traditionally not had much of).

So basically, it was a promising idea, but not something our team was capable of tackling any time soon.

Agent Quality Removal (Team BFF): It looks like we're going to pursue a different solution in any case, by removing agent quality entirely. Whether or not this will incorporate some dynamic agent quality system too is not something I want to speak definitevely on, but that is not my impression from Soundwave's presentation. My understanding is that all that matters now is the level brackets (1 - 5), security status (lower security agents are worth more) and skills, LP stores, etc.

It won't eliminate hubs entirely, since people will still likely cluster around areas with many agents (which allows them to decline missions more easily) but it will help ease the stress on the worst-affected areas. I think, most positively, people will be afforded a lot more freedom in choosing where they want to run missions, rather than being limited to just a handful of locations by a system they have no control over.

I'll poke BFF to provide some more details and confirmation of that as soon as they can. Smile




Basically, there won't be dynamic agent quality anytime soon, divisions will offer pure mission types, and only agent quality will be removed, not effect of sec status? Can you clarify on sec status, or ask them for more details?

Will factors that made megahubs like Irjunen what it is (lvl4 combat agent in 0.5 sec, which is far from lowsec and don't offer lowsec missions) change? Will highsec agents near lowsec still offer lowsec missions? The mass migration to deep highsec hubs after Tyrannis patch is because border agents started giving lowsec missions at a high rate. Those same agents will still be unused, regardless of quality changes, unless "Tyrannis mission unbalancing" is reversed. The combination of 0.5 sec and not being near lowsec is rare. The changes, as they are, might open up maybe one or two agents with those traits that had really low qualities (-20 or so, which is worth a difference of 0.2 in system sec) before, but otherwise won't change much or disperse hubs.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.03.27 14:57:00 - [114]
 

Thanks for the clarification and hope to hear more.
The problem is not just combat missions but the mix. Pirate verse standing droping fw type anti empire class enemies. Are those going to be split as well so i can choose one faction that i can build standing with which will not kill my standing with some one else. This also needs to be clear in the write up about the agent. With links to the factions the agent has missions for and agenst maybe.Laughing

sabre906
Posted - 2011.03.27 15:04:00 - [115]
 

Edited by: sabre906 on 27/03/2011 15:04:47
Originally by: Salpun
Thanks for the clarification and hope to hear more.
The problem is not just combat missions but the mix. Pirate verse standing droping fw type anti empire class enemies. Are those going to be split as well so i can choose one faction that i can build standing with which will not kill my standing with some one else. This also needs to be clear in the write up about the agent. With links to the factions the agent has missions for and agenst maybe.Laughing


If highsec faction kill missions were like FW missions (only kill one or two rats), it would've been much more attractive. Speaking of that, will the -2.4 standing loss for misc structures and ships which devs were too lazy to set a value for, be reversed? Back when they gave -0.0 loss, people were much more willing to do faction kill missions. It makes no sense that 20 BS rats incur -0.02% loss, but some random structure, turret, or fighter spawn from carrier give -2.4%.

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2011.03.27 15:15:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Linda Shadowborn
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 27/03/2011 13:47:28
Hey guys Smileawesome info




Thanks a ton Dropbear, always so much better to have real info then mere guesses. So it looks like the new mission hubs will be.. 00,5 systems in deep highsec. Arent you worried that now even more people will find those (hi emolgranlan) and make an even bigger congestion?


Not sure why you would think that. From what I gathered the value of an agent is going to be based on either "high sec" "low sec" or "null sec" and then I assume just skills after that. So in other words, there will be no hubs centered around a few "good" agents or systems. New hubs will be based on where people want to mission more than anything (probably close to already existing trade hubs or clusters of agents for the reasons he mentioned).

Low sec will still be more valuable, but since the functional difference between a .4 and a .1 (for example) are the same then the agents will be the same (this is an assumption on my part but I'm sure the changes are partially based on this idea).

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.03.27 15:17:00 - [117]
 

Faction kill missions should be optional.
Missions should give a reward equal to the secstatus of the system the mission is *in*.
A mission that is in lowsec should get a significant boost (0.4 = 50-100% more than a 0.5 mission)
Currently a HS mission runner who sees a LS mission will definitely reject it. What if the mission offered them a lot more reward. (With mission rewards/bonuses a small chunk of actual ISK gained, it may also need to be more than just the mission reward/bonus)

Maverick2011
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.27 15:19:00 - [118]
 

If you guys don't implement the dynamic quality change then the game will be so much better for missioners. We can finally choose where to mission without some stupid eve-agent research for 2-3 agents for an entire level of missions.

Jus great, if you do implement dynamic quality change in the future though, please for the love of GOD show a quality meter so we dont have to be guessing if the reward is getting worse or its just a random payment.

sabre906
Posted - 2011.03.27 15:54:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Linda Shadowborn
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 27/03/2011 13:47:28
Hey guys Smileawesome info




Thanks a ton Dropbear, always so much better to have real info then mere guesses. So it looks like the new mission hubs will be.. 00,5 systems in deep highsec. Arent you worried that now even more people will find those (hi emolgranlan) and make an even bigger congestion?


Not sure why you would think that. From what I gathered the value of an agent is going to be based on either "high sec" "low sec" or "null sec" and then I assume just skills after that. So in other words, there will be no hubs centered around a few "good" agents or systems. New hubs will be based on where people want to mission more than anything (probably close to already existing trade hubs or clusters of agents for the reasons he mentioned).

Low sec will still be more valuable, but since the functional difference between a .4 and a .1 (for example) are the same then the agents will be the same (this is an assumption on my part but I'm sure the changes are partially based on this idea).


He only mentioned agent quality. Whether sec will be removed is unclear. "Tyrannis mission unbalancing" eliminated a big chunk of agents within 3 jumps to lowsec as viable agents. The handful of agents that are both in 0.5 sec system and not near lowsec are basically the same ones as highsec hubs we have now.

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.03.27 16:39:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Wet Ferret

Not sure why you would think that. From what I gathered the value of an agent is going to be based on either "high sec" "low sec" or "null sec" and then I assume just skills after that. So in other words, there will be no hubs centered around a few "good" agents or systems. New hubs will be based on where people want to mission more than anything (probably close to already existing trade hubs or clusters of agents for the reasons he mentioned).


True if system sec has no effect on the rewards anymore.. True.. would be nice to know for sure. I didnt even think about that.. can i blame it on it being early and i didnt have any coffee yet? *looks hopeful*

But if it still does, we will still have the mission hub problem. Otherwise yeah i think people will spread out somewhat.


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