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Normal citizen
Posted - 2011.03.21 18:00:00 - [1]
 

It's always been bothering me how useless the navy issues are in comparison to the pirate ships. For a price difference of ranging from 5 times as much to 20 times, you would expect a difference.

Lets start off with cruisers. I'm just going to talk about the caldari navy issues, because they say everything that needs to be told.
If you want a missile boat, you'd go for the caracal. If you want to pimp it out, you'd upgrade to a navy issue caracal. Now, there is a second option to that Navy caracal. The navy issue Osprey. For a price of but 50mil isk you'd get a ship, which frankly is worse than the normal caracal. However, you do get a cooler paint job.

If we move on to battleships. Lets compare the megathrons, because it's a pretty good example too. We have the normal megathron, a pretty decent ship. And then we have the Navy issue Megathron, a... pretty decent ship. Really not worth the price difference.
However, there is a pirate version of it. And frankly, that version is insane. Better in most, if not all, aspects. For just a minor price difference.

I simply don't see how this makes any sense. The four empire factions should have ships that are up to par with the pirate ones. As we don't have any that are, I propose that Tier 3 ships get faction variants which would be equally useful as the pirate ones are.

Also, would anyone please tell me what the point with the Navy Osprey is?

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.03.21 21:06:00 - [2]
 

you seem to be making two arguments here . . .
1. the Navy Osprey sucks
2. The pirate faction ships are better than the navy faction ships

to answer #1, Im going to say that it isnt restricted to kinetic damage like the caracal is, and it has more grid, so it can fit HAMs and an MWD unlike the caracal; it also has an additional low slot allowing for a DCU and two BCS unlike the caracal.

I have no answer to #2 as it seems that the pirates have better tech than the standard navys, which makes me wonder why they just dont take over . . .

In fact in most cases, the pirate faction ships are better than the T2 ships
Gila > Ishtar
Vigilant > Deimos (though they both kinda suck)
Cynabal >= Vagabond (some would disagree)
I guess you could say that the curse is better than the ashimmu but still . . .

Tony SoXai
Posted - 2011.03.21 21:14:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Sigras
Vigilant and Deimos suck.


GTFO

Originally by: Sigras
Ashimmu.


The thing about the Ashimmu is that it seems to be based off of a Pilgrim type hull, which makes no sense as the other pirate cruiser are generally based off of racial hacs (cynabal>vaga, gila>ishtar, and Vigilant being somewhat reminiscent of the Deimos) so it really should be a cap-intensive armor resist bonussed brawler (maybe with a neuting bonus on top to make a kind of sacricurse) - same goes for the Cruor.

I forget what else I was gonna say.


Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.03.21 21:23:00 - [4]
 

you really thing the vigilant and deimos are viable? IMHO, they do crazy damage 2% of the time because the other 98% they're out of range

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.03.21 21:23:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Sigras
1. the Navy Osprey sucks


All the "tier 1" faction cruisers suck.

Quote:
2. The pirate faction ships are better than the navy faction ships


They're supposed to be.... but it isn't always true because some of the pirate ships really suck. You can locate these ships by examining their price on the market.

-Liang

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.03.21 22:17:00 - [6]
 

The only root source of the Navy Megathron is via the LP store using LP, which have an assumed ISK value. The Vindicator BPC can be obtained via a rat drop. So there is a less tangible cost to the root source of the Vindi'.

So the apparent "overpricing" of the Navythron might be explained by it's higher root cost to obtain by a player.

Tarasina
Posted - 2011.03.21 22:18:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sigras
1. the Navy Osprey sucks


All the "tier 1" faction cruisers suck.

Quote:
2. The pirate faction ships are better than the navy faction ships


They're supposed to be.... but it isn't always true because some of the pirate ships really suck. You can locate these ships by examining their price on the market.

-Liang


Phantasm?

Vixisti
The Scope
Posted - 2011.03.21 22:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tarasina
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sigras
1. the Navy Osprey sucks


All the "tier 1" faction cruisers suck.

Quote:
2. The pirate faction ships are better than the navy faction ships


They're supposed to be.... but it isn't always true because some of the pirate ships really suck. You can locate these ships by examining their price on the market.

-Liang


Phantasm?


Phantasms come with a small map giving you directions to the top belt in Tama.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.22 07:40:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Normal citizen
I simply don't see how this makes any sense. The four empire factions should have ships that are up to par with the pirate ones. As we don't have any that are, I propose that Tier 3 ships get faction variants which would be equally useful as the pirate ones are.


It's not designed to make RP sense, it's to make mission-running in 0.0 (generally considered to be more dangerous than highsec) more lucrative than doing the same in Empire. It's a player driven economy so to get players to pay more, the ships are made openly OP.

Quote:
Also, would anyone please tell me what the point with the Navy Osprey is?


To **** you off.

Doug Drafto
Posted - 2011.03.22 07:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Sigras
you really thing the vigilant and deimos are viable? IMHO, they do crazy damage 2% of the time because the other 98% they're out of range


This. They cant connect especially now that MWD can be disactivated by scramblers and webs only work 60%. Minmatar only got stronger and gallentes cant even hit...

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2011.03.22 10:48:00 - [11]
 

Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.



Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:18:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: Sigras
you really thing the vigilant and deimos are viable? IMHO, they do crazy damage 2% of the time because the other 98% they're out of range


This. They cant connect especially now that MWD can be disactivated by scramblers and webs only work 60%. Minmatar only got stronger and gallentes cant even hit...
ability of using a 90% web, extra grid, increased damage (think 25% more) and a 4th medslot makes the vigilant a tad better than the deimos.

granted both are geared towards blasters and said blasters in medium size are, for the lack of more descriptive word, a steaming pile of crap, but still...

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:28:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 22/03/2011 11:28:42
Originally by: Wacktopia
The only root source of the Navy Megathron is via the LP store using LP...


If you have enough standing to some corps of the Gallente Fed you can have Navy Mega's Bp (2 copies) in exchange of some dogtags. (DED)

Can't say if you can do it more than once.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:40:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: Sigras
you really thing the vigilant and deimos are viable? IMHO, they do crazy damage 2% of the time because the other 98% they're out of range


This. They cant connect especially now that MWD can be disactivated by scramblers and webs only work 60%. Minmatar only got stronger and gallentes cant even hit...
ability of using a 90% web, extra grid, increased damage (think 25% more) and a 4th medslot makes the vigilant a tad better than the deimos.

granted both are geared towards blasters and said blasters in medium size are, for the lack of more descriptive word, a steaming pile of crap, but still...


There's also the not-insignificant lack of T2 resists. Mind you, the web bonus goes a long way to make up for it, but I tend to see the resist argument neglected a lot when comparing HACs and faction cruisers (particularly the Cynabal vs. the Vaga).

Qui Shon
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:41:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Edited by: Swynet on 22/03/2011 11:28:42
Originally by: Wacktopia
The only root source of the Navy Megathron is via the LP store using LP...


If you have enough standing to some corps of the Gallente Fed you can have Navy Mega's Bp (2 copies) in exchange of some dogtags. (DED)

Can't say if you can do it more than once.


It's standing to the Faction, not corps, and it's only once.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.22 11:46:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Qui Shon
It's standing to the Faction, not corps, and it's only once.


Senate Corporation +9 standing required

rodensteiner
Amarr
OMGROFLSTOMP
Posted - 2011.03.22 12:12:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Sigras


to answer #1, Im going to say that it isnt restricted to kinetic damage like the caracal is, and it has more grid, so it can fit HAMs and an MWD unlike the caracal; it also has an additional low slot allowing for a DCU and two BCS unlike the caracal. .


Don't forget that the Navy Osprey is MUCH faster than the Caracal...2,000+ m/s

Doug Drafto
Posted - 2011.03.22 14:47:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: adriaans
Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.





Oh great, they get to use a 90% web... something we always had... As soon as your within 7.5km your MWD is off anyway though. A 90% web is nice and a start, but it only scratches the surface of why Gallente is sucking. The Vigilant is better than a Deimos and a Vigilant will get eaten by a Vagabond in seconds, any day.

Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
Posted - 2011.03.22 14:56:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: adriaans
Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.





Oh great, they get to use a 90% web... something we always had... As soon as your within 7.5km your MWD is off anyway though. A 90% web is nice and a start, but it only scratches the surface of why Gallente is sucking. The Vigilant is better than a Deimos and a Vigilant will get eaten by a Vagabond in seconds, any day.


If that vigilant dies to a vaga, it would either die very slowly or the vaga would have to come into web range (18.2km with fed navy) and when that happens the vaga dies very quickly.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.03.22 15:40:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: adriaans
Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.





Oh great, they get to use a 90% web... something we always had... As soon as your within 7.5km your MWD is off anyway though. A 90% web is nice and a start, but it only scratches the surface of why Gallente is sucking. The Vigilant is better than a Deimos and a Vigilant will get eaten by a Vagabond in seconds, any day.


now don't downplay it that hard. sure it still has issues, but in the vigilant those are mostly from the guns only.

deimos is an issue by itself.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.03.22 16:01:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: adriaans
Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.





Oh great, they get to use a 90% web... something we always had... As soon as your within 7.5km your MWD is off anyway though. A 90% web is nice and a start, but it only scratches the surface of why Gallente is sucking. The Vigilant is better than a Deimos and a Vigilant will get eaten by a Vagabond in seconds, any day.
TBH I'm just going to flat out say that you're wrong on this one. The vigilant (and the other serpentis ships) are exactly what blaster boats SHOULD be. Facemelting DPS at the cost of tank, with the ability to properly hold things down to actually maintain the range they need once in it. (they're also quite agile while not having great top speeds, which is another thing that needs to happen to all blaster boats)

Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
Posted - 2011.03.22 16:10:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: adriaans
Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.





Oh great, they get to use a 90% web... something we always had... As soon as your within 7.5km your MWD is off anyway though. A 90% web is nice and a start, but it only scratches the surface of why Gallente is sucking. The Vigilant is better than a Deimos and a Vigilant will get eaten by a Vagabond in seconds, any day.
TBH I'm just going to flat out say that you're wrong on this one. The vigilant (and the other serpentis ships) are exactly what blaster boats SHOULD be. Facemelting DPS at the cost of tank, with the ability to properly hold things down to actually maintain the range they need once in it. (they're also quite agile while not having great top speeds, which is another thing that needs to happen to all blaster boats)


I dont know the vigilant is fairly quick, in fact if you arent in a stabber/vaga/cynabal hull or osprey navy issue, I dont think any cruiser is faster (just MWD no speed mods) and the daredevil is as fast as some of the slower intys

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.03.22 18:23:00 - [23]
 

I am totally blown away by old blaster pilots insisting that the web ****ed them up because 60% isn't enough to hold someone firmly and then seconds later complaining about scrams shutting down MWD meaning that people get tackled firmly.

WTF ARE YOU THINKING? CAN YOU PUT A COHERENT ARGUMENT TOGETHER? **** ILL DO IT FOR YOU.

Quote:
The scrambler/web changes made blaster tracking difficult because although the target was tackled just as well after the changes as before, they didn't suffer from mwd signature bloom.

The scram changes put gallente ships at a disadvantage because a shield ship can now firmly tackle a target with the use of only a single midslot. Before the changes gallente were often the only ships with enough open midslots to easily fit warp disruptor + web. Any ship can now be fit to firmly tackle a target, a province that was once gallente ships only had to share with a handful of others, like the rapier.

Changing web/scram did not effect the mobility of gallente ships. It effected the UTILITY of gallente ships. A slow blaster boat before the changes couldn't escape a nanoship without killing it, and had about as much difficulty as catching a kiting nanoship before and after. But the utility of gallente ships took a definite hit.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.03.22 18:56:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Korg Tronix
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Doug Drafto
Originally by: adriaans
Vigilant (and Vindicator, Daredevil as well) have 90% webs... and you better be using a faction one and the ability to overheat..

Serpentis ships don't have THAT issue.





Oh great, they get to use a 90% web... something we always had... As soon as your within 7.5km your MWD is off anyway though. A 90% web is nice and a start, but it only scratches the surface of why Gallente is sucking. The Vigilant is better than a Deimos and a Vigilant will get eaten by a Vagabond in seconds, any day.
TBH I'm just going to flat out say that you're wrong on this one. The vigilant (and the other serpentis ships) are exactly what blaster boats SHOULD be. Facemelting DPS at the cost of tank, with the ability to properly hold things down to actually maintain the range they need once in it. (they're also quite agile while not having great top speeds, which is another thing that needs to happen to all blaster boats)


I dont know the vigilant is fairly quick, in fact if you arent in a stabber/vaga/cynabal hull or osprey navy issue, I dont think any cruiser is faster (just MWD no speed mods) and the daredevil is as fast as some of the slower intys


I dont want this to turn into another one of those arguments, but the problem with vigilant isnt its base speed, its that you have two options when fitting this ship.
1. Fit Armor rigs which make you slow as crap
2. Dont fit armor rigs which means you die before ever getting in range.

In theory its great to have glass cannon ships that do tons of damage and have no tank, in practice it just makes you primary.

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.03.22 20:59:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
There's also the not-insignificant lack of T2 resists. Mind you, the web bonus goes a long way to make up for it, but I tend to see the resist argument neglected a lot when comparing HACs and faction cruisers (particularly the Cynabal vs. the Vaga).


I just had another go at the Navy Osprey in EFT, and giving it better resists would help a lot. Either T2 resists, or else a +5%/lvl bonus like the Drake.

As it is now, it really isn't a good ship.

Annoitte
Minmatar
Industrial Salvage and Excavations
Posted - 2011.03.22 22:52:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Normal citizen
The four empire factions should have ships that are up to par with the pirate ones. As we don't have any that are, I propose that Tier 3 ships get faction variants which would be equally useful as the pirate ones are.


The problem with your logic is simply this: Pirate faction ships require cross training. You have to have two different racial ship skills trained up to fly them. They are closer to Tech 2 (in requirements) than any of the Navy faction ships. This is why they are better. You do not, ever, make something require more training without making it better. A LOT better.

The second problem is, most of the Tier 1 Navy ships do suck (relatively). The Navy Osprey is outperformed by other, cheaper, ships. The Navy Augoror is the same way, as well as the Fleet Scythe (I have no experience with the Gallente one). But they do serve a purpose, and some people (myself mostly) enjoy the hell out of flying these low-power ships.

Misanthra
Posted - 2011.03.22 22:53:00 - [27]
 

not all pirate > navy.

rattlesnake outside of lv 5 and 0.0 plexes (or so I hear, never ran one in them) is not such a hot ship. Lv 4 running...CNR or even SNI a better option imo. Flew all 3....rattler is slower on the isk per hour rate. Not even a isk/hour zealot, hell I run level 3's in af's to make eve interesting from time to time, but its jsut slow. She tanks for days...kind of needs to with her dps since its not a mission wiper.

Worm same thing to me. Prefer hookbill to it, lightw or rocket.

Did nail gila nice though...used range bonus for aml's to have drones set for cruiser and above killing and gila highs got the frigate killing duty.


Navy osprey...nothing ever screamed buy me about it. BUt for pvp the accepted caldari hac is cerb and navy crapacal was an accepted ghetto substitute for those working on thier cruiser 5 places I used it. For pve, looking at its bonuses though...see it as being maybe useful for enemies where using type specific ammo is better than cheesing it with kinetic bonus on scourge with a navy crapacal. I find some rat types its just better to use type ammo they are weak too...osprey rof bonus, high rapid launch skill, some potenetial there maybe.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.03.22 22:59:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 22/03/2011 22:59:40
Originally by: Annoitte
You do not, ever, make something require more training without making it better. A LOT better.


Battelships require a lot more training than battlecruisers, still the battlecruiser is the king of small/med gang pvp

Faction (pirate) cruisers don't ask so much training has battleships, but they are better than battleships except few situations Wink



Prometheus Exenthal
Genos Occidere
Posted - 2011.03.22 23:40:00 - [29]
 

Just posting to say that the only thing the Vigilant does better than a Deimos, is kill frigs and not get jammed so bad by hornets.
The dps isn't as amazing as you'd think unless you plan on running a paper tank.

The Deimos does everything else better.
Better cap, better tank, better resists, better price.

When I'm in a Deimos and I see a Vigilant, I hope it's faction fit.
The ship is nowhere near as good as the Daredevil/Vindicator.

If you want a ship that Gallente should ASPIRE to be, look into the Adrestia.

Dr Fighter
Posted - 2011.03.22 23:41:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Dr Fighter on 22/03/2011 23:41:17
in light of t3s and their huge bonuses, i really think some faction and basicly all navy could do with a boost in the way of a role bonus.

pirate faction ships are generally okay, so somthing very tertiary in terms of their role perhaps defensive.

Navy need some sort of role bonus even if weak half bonus, 2.5% instead of 5% web strength etc

poeple clearly have the money and the skills arnt a problem, somthing more significant inbetween t2 and t3 is needed, BS i think are far more ballenced overall - but thats because there is no T3 bs.


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