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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.03.18 04:14:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: EpicFailTroll
cookie cutter tough EvE player lol internet spaceship cry more noob typical answer?
People, not pixels, kid.


epicfailenglish

Corporate Thief
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.03.18 04:23:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Originally by: EpicFailTroll
cookie cutter tough EvE player lol internet spaceship cry more noob typical answer?
People, not pixels, kid.


epicfailenglish


I'm sure his English is better than either my Spanish or my Russian... We should at least figure out his nationality before jumping down his throat. If he's a native English speaker, then I'll agree with your assessment.

To contribute to the thread, I am in EVE as I am in RL.

Daspletor
Posted - 2011.03.18 10:16:00 - [213]
 

People may be one of the following:

- Has a strong sense of moral and ethics irl, for the right reasons. Lives by these ingame as well.

- Lives by a strong sense of moral and ethics irl, but because that's how you stay out of trouble. Acts out his 'true' decadent character ingame.

- Does not have a strong sense of moral and ethics neither irl, nor ingame.

Which one are you? Razz

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.18 10:42:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Daspletor
People may be one of the following:

- Has a strong sense of moral and ethics irl, for the right reasons. Lives by these ingame as well.

- Lives by a strong sense of moral and ethics irl, but because that's how you stay out of trouble. Acts out his 'true' decadent character ingame.

- Does not have a strong sense of moral and ethics neither irl, nor ingame.

Which one are you? Razz


- Has a strong sense or morals and ethics IRL, but is able to differentiate between a game and real life and has the basic insight to see that the two situations are not morally equivalent.

Marija Vanszar
Caldari
The Warp Pub
Posted - 2011.03.18 11:40:00 - [215]
 

I'm pretty sure you can take EVE as a WHAT IF SIMULATION in that case...

People only act like they act becouse of rules and laws and expectations from the RL community...

If 90 % of the planet would **** next to the ****our it would be normal....

So if there were no rules and laws... **** would hit the fan like in 0.0

Br,
Joker

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2011.03.18 11:55:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/03/2011 11:56:04
Originally by: Ebisu Kami

You're drawing an incomplete picture there



Less incomplete than "I object to the notion that religion can be the source of any kind of ethical framework".


Quote:

You're drawing an incomplete picture there. Humanism had a huge impact on western morals and society and one of the center-points of humanism is, that religion is not supposed to have a governing place in ethics and morals of said society, but reason and thought.



Humanism came well later and derives from Neo-Classicism, Illuminism and both are signs of cultural decay. Added to consumism, it indeed affected western society and made it the sh!t it's today.
Humanists illude themselves that reason, ethics and justice are achieved by ourselves alone.

What we achieve by ourselves are wars and nuclear incidents (due to greed and consumism that in turn require to live like grasshoppers and spoil our planet).
It served so well to Karl Marx to be on the same boat.

Materialism, consumism, humanism, are all the same faces of a crap medal.

I'll tell you this: we can't prove a God exist, we can prove we as humanity suck hard nuts and therefore humanism and similar serve just to illude people that something will change or improve.

What changes is exclusively that the average Joe becomes a fatter and well fed pig. With no brain, no principles, no scope of life.

Live as a nice fat pig till 85 old and then die and rot like a pig. But don't forget to work for a lifetime to some richer pig, who preaches you about human progress and ethics!


Quote:

Having said that: If you need a supernatural beeing (or several thereof) to give you laws and rules on how to treat your surroundings in sensible ways, then you're doing it wrong.



I see the brilliant results of those who know what they are doing cropping all over the place.


Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2011.03.18 12:04:00 - [217]
 

Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 18/03/2011 12:07:28
Originally by: Marija Vanszar
I'm pretty sure you can take EVE as a WHAT IF SIMULATION in that case...

People only act like they act becouse of rules and laws and expectations from the RL community...

If 90 % of the planet would **** next to the ****our it would be normal....

So if there were no rules and laws... **** would hit the fan like in 0.0

Br,
Joker



At least some people here have enough sense to get it Wink



Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
What changes is exclusively that the average Joe becomes a fatter and well fed pig. With no brain, no [Genuine] principles, no scope of life.

Marija Vanszar
Caldari
The Warp Pub
Posted - 2011.03.18 12:30:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Marija Vanszar on 18/03/2011 12:30:23
hehe

EpicFailTroll
Posted - 2011.03.18 13:24:00 - [219]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

- Has a strong sense or morals and ethics IRL, but is able to differentiate between a game and real life and has the basic insight to see that the two situations are not morally equivalent.


Alas, no:

Burial Day: "if you segregate morality and non-morality based on its contextual application, you're missing the point: morality is about people, not the "game" (i.e., the context)"

Matrixksye : "Killing in Eve is not morally wrong. Scamming is not morally wrong. Stealing is not morally wrong. These are part of the game. However, I believe that if your intention is to purposely hurt someone in real life then you have taken the “it’s just a game” out of the equation. If you play with the intention of being a jerk to someone or making someone quit or cry then Eve is not just a game to you. Eve is a tool you use to propagate real-life malice."

EvE is also not a game in the traditional sense, because of discrepancies that would be considered gamebreaking in a normal (tabletop, for example) context, such as alts, ease of gatecamping vs ease of travelling, ease of scamming, etc
It is highly hypocritical to use the "it's only a game" argument, when you're using EvE as a tool to reap Schadenfreude. More people seem to be understanding that and it's quite a welcome change.

Sporked
Posted - 2011.03.18 13:50:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Marija Vanszar
I'm pretty sure you can take EVE as a WHAT IF SIMULATION in that case...

People only act like they act becouse of rules and laws and expectations from the RL community...

If 90 % of the planet would **** next to the ****our it would be normal....

So if there were no rules and laws... **** would hit the fan like in 0.0

Br,
Joker


I'm not sure theres much excrement hitting rotating blades in 0.0 tbh, it looks pretty similar to all the current RL alliances and coallitions to me...well apart from the bit about the UN(C) killing China (IT and it's OMGSTOPHAVINGFUNGUYS attitude).

Anyways back on topic. I fail to see why I should feel bad about scamming some guy I don't know, never have or never will meet out of something that doesn't even exist in the first place. If you want a real life analogy it's pretty much the same as walking up to some randomer in the street and saying 'haha I got your (insert fictitious object here)'. Would you feel bad about doing that because I sure as hell wouldn't.

Imho ethics can only be applied when there is a clearly negative outcome to your decisions when compared with all other options. Example: stealing money someone needs to buy food with, leaving them with nothing at all is morally and ethically wrong. Cheating and stealing money that has no value outside of a game so that you can win, however, is not as someone has to lose the game anyway. So what if they rage and/or cry, it's extremely likely that if they had that reaction to losing then it would have happened if you played fair or not.

CCP Manifest


C C P
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:12:00 - [221]
 

Edited by: CCP Manifest on 18/03/2011 14:13:59
Originally by: Nadea Semah
So i was wondering the other day.

For those that (arguments sake) were raised with strong ethical and moral backgrounds- based on religion, or what not..

Is your play style consistent with your Real life code of ethics??


This is an EXCELLENT topic. CCP Adida shot it over to me and I posted it to Facebook. Hopefully that'll bring some more input across the board.

I personally maintain the same moral code in both...as I don't use EVE as an escape to a different personality as much as a chance to imagine myself a spaceship pilot...or is that escape?

Why not use my moral code as a benefit in game instead of trying to wield a moral code I'm not as well-versed in?

trevor51alphaTBE
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:22:00 - [222]
 

i have a simple philosophy when playing any game.
enjoy it, don't get too wrapped up in it, and never ever cheat.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:24:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: CCP Manifest

Why not use my moral code as a benefit in game instead of trying to wield a moral code I'm not as well-versed in?



No reason at all... as long as you realise that it's your choice that you're making for you and you dont try and draw any inferences about people who make a different choice to try out a moral code they're not familiar with.

Doherty Donahue
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:26:00 - [224]
 

For the most part, I live by a certain moral code in this game - don't steal what you don't need, don't try to cheat people out of their stuff.

However, when it comes to pvp, it's all fair game (except for suicide ganking in 1.0 and 0.9 space).

Orson Dolittle
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:34:00 - [225]
 

even in rl morals and ethics are often contingent. For example a warrior code is not the same as the code of a healer or a priest. Each society has different sets of values, and so on. Eve is a warrior game and pvp is fair and to be expected. The scams, well they are annoying but it teaches you to be smarter.

What is of ethical cocern is not the pvp or scamming (I think that's par for the course), but the smack in local, as it can get a bit out of hand at times. I am always aware that some of the people I interact with in eve are rl children.

Gehen Sealbreaker
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:41:00 - [226]
 

Originally by: Nadea Semah
So i was wondering the other day.

For those that (arguments sake) were raised with strong ethical and moral backgrounds- based on religion, or what not..

Is your play style consistent with your Real life code of ethics??

Are you a hypocrite for condemning one action in real life, yet committing said action in eve?

example:
If irl i was a religious leader and railed against the devils brew, yet I was regularly spotted drinking it in public on Friday nights- that would be a hypocritical thing pure and simple..

If however, I railed against contract fraud all day irl, and then tried to sell a tritanium for 600mill isk repetively in high population systems- would that be the same as above? would that be transgressing ones moral outlook on real life?

SO, for those who were raised with a very strong sense of justice, ethics, morality and so forth- be it from religious upbringing or secular- do you find it hypocritical to have a real life code, and a eve code by which you operate?

I never ask questions like these that i dont answer (my moral code lol) but No, I do not consider it hypocritical if lets say a fundy pastor played eve as a very successful pirate and scam artist. and no we arent discussing wether religon robs folk irl Very Happy

does and to what extent your real life code of ethics carry over into your play style in eve?

and what is the basis for your answer?


It's a game ! A roleplaying game, even.
In the end, we play fictional characters, who are designed to have their own ethics.

Gehen and I (the player behind him) don't have the same ethics, but that's irrelevant. It's like an actor who can interpret "bad guys" in a movie or a play without having to think like them.

There is no hypocrisy in this, because everyone knows that it's a game, and it has (almost) no consequences on our lives.

If your question was more "do you usually design and roleplay characters who have a common moral background with you ?", I'd say no. I like the challenge of putting myself into a different character shoes.

Jethro Teluman
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:48:00 - [227]
 

If you're having pvp issues, do what I do. Hide in your home base, and train the skills you have. Do missions. Get to a point to where it's difficult to be defenseless. My code of ethics is simple: don't mind me, I don't mind you. i'm a very give and take type.. I'm one of the ones who feels like MMO's impact RL too.. hell my mom killed herself partially because of WoW. that doesn't say anything about me though. I don't take things THAT seriously at all.

Point is: if you do something, expect it to be done back in some way shape or form. Simple karma.

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:49:00 - [228]
 

I generally behave as a nice guy IRL and on EVE, however I don't consider ingame piracy or theft wrong.

Sheena Tzash
Posted - 2011.03.18 14:50:00 - [229]
 

I'm not religious or have any morals more than 'dont be a **** to people' and I guess that carries over into the game as well as I dislike the idea of ruining someones time in the game for my own amusement (tears blah blah).

I have no problems with fighting a fair fight, but in EVE nothing is intentially fair if you can help it.

I guess my personality translates over into the game quite well, although as I learn more about the game I feel that I can experiment a little more with the 'dark side' of EVE :D

I guess that is the appeal of EVE; realistic personalities and motiviations being applied to a virtual environment makes for a much more realistic experiance full of scams, ganks and can flippers; but if RL was anything close to EVE I would imagine it would be very much the same.

Anopheles Leet
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:04:00 - [230]
 

Actually, I think my ethics and morality mesh pretty well with my Eve behaviour. I think morality on the whole is a socially defined construct, so my behaviour is perfectly ethical within the moral construct of the players community: if you act in a certain way, you are safe. If you act in another way, you are fair game.

I dislike scammers and call them whenever I see them hawking in local. I don't highsec gank. Since we have a CCP-sanctioned exchange rate, I'm blowing up someone's hardearned cash rather than monopoly money that only has meaning in the game; so consent (even if it is only implied consent) is important to me before I start smacking you up. I play within a NRDS corp and respect that decision, but I'm happy with NBSI in 0.4 and below because by leaving highsec you're effectively consenting to PvP.

I think there's one way that Eve is different from the real world, which is an issue of the rule of law. If I had been victimised in Eve and had the opportunity to retaliate, I would take it. In the real world I wouldn't, because I have legal and social recourse to see that my attacker was recieves punishment. In Eve, that system of justice isn't available so I'd take matters into my own hands if I could. But crucially, if I lived in a culture where this was an accepted method of dealing with disputes, I guess I'd probably behave like that as well.

That said, a great part of the attraction of Eve to me is that there is always danger wherever you are - even in highsec. I'm not sure how to square that, really - I kind of depend on other people using different morality in the game than IRL (unless there really are enough BMW drivers/Merchant Bankers/other immoral scum playing Eve to populate events like Hulkageddon). Funny that.

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:18:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Sheena Tzash
I'm not religious or have any morals more than 'dont be a **** to people' and I guess that carries over into the game as well as I dislike the idea of ruining someones time in the game for my own amusement (tears blah blah).


The joy ppl get from 'tears' from noobies or carebears is somewhat questionable morally speaking yeah... If I were to gank someone and he would get upset about it I'd just explain to him that it is part of the game and try to get him to accept that facet of EVE. Rather than going "LOLOLOLO, U NUB I GRIEF U!1!1!".

****ing off ppl who get a kick out of ****ing of noobs is perfectly fine with me though. Laughing

Ellison Hotei
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:19:00 - [232]
 

This is an interesting question to me and one that I've been chewing on the last couple of weeks. I've recently become a student of Zen Buddhism and one of the side effects of Zen practice is a heightened awareness of cause and effect. In particular its made me a lot more aware of how my actions affect others and it suddenly occurred to me that certain activities in EvE might very well be in conflict with my ethics. I don't have any trouble with the PvE aspects of EvE, and even certain forms of PvP are fine. But for me griefing, scamming, can-flipping etc. are probably not.

Sometimes I'm interested in doing high-risk high-reward activities in EvE, and sometimes I'm just not up for it. Sometimes I've had a hard day and I just want to chill out and mine for a couple of hours. The brilliance of the EvE sandbox is that both modes of play are available (and indeed a broad spectrum in between). However, getting randomly attacked if you're in the low-key mode just sucks. Yes it's "just a game" but it is the nature of human beings to attach to things and if you are randomly ganking some carebear, it probably hurts. Take that as you will. In my case, I don't see a difference between hurting someone in game or IRL. You're making karma in both cases.

When I was a student at Caltech, there was a very strong emphasis on the "honor code" which basically said don't take unfair advantage of others. It was the word "unfair" that tended to make life interesting. At Caltech there is also a long tradition of (often quite elaborate) practical jokes, and the general rule of thumb for participating in these activities without breaching the honor code was to "know your victim." In other words, don't do something to someone if they are going to be hurt by it. The difference between bolting all the furniture in someone's room to the ceiling and "hazing" was not the activity itself, but whether or not the victim will be amused or feel attacked.

I think a similar mindset can be applied in EvE and having made myself aware of these issues, I can't really ignore them. So personally, I've adopted an "understand my victim" policy and will endeavor to abstain from gratuitous violence against parties that probably have neither interest nor expectation of being attacked. Doesn't mean I'm going to retire my PvP toon, but rather that I need to take care to chose my targets well. The bottom line for me is to remember that while this is "just a game" this is still interaction with a community of real people and so I need to act accordingly.

Salzaar
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:23:00 - [233]
 

Interesting question. I wouldn't have anywhere near the qualms irl as I do in eve. I don't mind say loosing a ship but i do mind spending the next two hours mindlessly wandering around getting new modules. I would pay a ransom in eve theoretically but don't trust most people not to carry carry on shooting for the lolz. That's not so much ethics as a conscience - lots of people have said it's a game. It is but making someones life a misery for a few lols isn't jusified as a "game" IMO...

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a great idea to do it...

Mila Nova
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:28:00 - [234]
 

Think is not a moral or ethical problem, is more like a consequence problem, in Eve consequences are limited or non existent, in RL they are dear and harsh.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:29:00 - [235]
 

Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 18/03/2011 15:30:51
Originally by: Ellison Hotei
... I don't have any trouble with the PvE aspects of EvE, and even certain forms of PvP are fine. But for me griefing, scamming, can-flipping etc. are probably not.
...



food for thought. those NPC ships are full of little people. they may be virtual. or they may just be something you don't care about. like cows.

Mighty Dread
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:30:00 - [236]
 

Again, as a game that allows for players to take on good, bad or neutral roles it's perfectly acceptable to take the moral high or low road, as long as good sportsmanship is adhered to so that the game remains fun for all. You may lose a round or two but that is the nature of all games. However I think the reason threads like this one have gone on for multiple pages is that some, or many, take issue with the fact that EVE's gameplay rather narrowly focuses on players taking the moral low ground. Which is unfortunate, not only is this a very narrow minded and somewhat illogical view of a futuristic Sci-Fi community it also greatly limits player dynamics within the game.

As for emotional investment. Well, we are human beings and if we had no emotional investments in the games we played we'd get bored pretty quick and quit. Of course some get too emotionally invested and that goes for both good willed and ill willed player of EVE. On a side thought, when a game is not able to stimulate players either mentally or emotionally, when it leans towards being shallow and monotonous, well players tend to want to act out against the game and the other players who play it.

OutOfGrace
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:37:00 - [237]
 

Honestly just by watching everyone play and how they play etc.. Even though people may follow or not follow the IRL morales they have, it is a great learning point for IRL. Honestly, its alot safer to get conned out of a 100 million isk than it is out of a hundred dollars.
I think EVE gives us the safe chance to explore our own carnal and obssesive behaviors without causing any real lasting damage to another person. Just the idea of being able to profit on a millionaires level, can do wonders in satisfying the need to feel like there is success in one's life. While at the same time if you are having a bad day, you can safely perforate someone without lasting affects on a person or true consequences on ones self.

Dr RABIT
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:37:00 - [238]
 

in life i regularly hurt and bully people but ingame i love and care for people wait.... i got that the wrong way round!

of course i dont murder people in real life, this is a game saying that i tend not to mess with people on my doorstep as thats only asking for trouble but otherwise its all fair game

James Cardogan
Lonetrek Trade and Industries
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:42:00 - [239]
 

Edited by: James Cardogan on 18/03/2011 15:45:58
Is your play style consistent with your Real life code of ethics??
-No difference to how I act in real life and the EVE Universe. I'm more of an ******* to other people on the Internet but that's about it. As to ethical gameplay and such... I'm neither. I do not, however, support the mainstream.

Everyone plays EVE how they want, I have that choice and I play it how I want. By all means, be a ganker, troller, pirate, scammer, as long as it's within the boundary of the game R&R. Otherwise, fair game.

Are you a hypocrite for condemning one action in real life, yet committing said action in eve?
-Nope. I try as much not to be a hypocrite if I can. Real-life reasons apply here, though I may be contradicting my answer above. I try to run a clean sheet as much as I can, mainly for my own enjoyment of the game and because my personality's like that.


Rino La'clivire
Posted - 2011.03.18 15:45:00 - [240]
 

When i was in Egypth, i saw lots of scammers


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