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price checkinho
Posted - 2011.03.17 15:50:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: price checkinho on 17/03/2011 15:53:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltMOp-t-PIA

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.17 15:52:00 - [32]
 

Quote:
you don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS


You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics.

Also, more tank is useless when you already have more than enough.

Joe Forum
Amarr
Posted - 2011.03.17 17:10:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Joe Forum on 17/03/2011 17:10:54
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
you don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS


You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics.




Would that suggest a stepped response, increasing dps showing no improvement until you reached the point of a 'saved' volley (one not needed as the target was dead) and then further increasing dps showing no improvement, until the next 'step'.

edit: typo

NoNah
Posted - 2011.03.17 19:40:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
you don't seem to realize the AB does two things to improve your DPS


You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics.

Also, more tank is useless when you already have more than enough.



Your suggested setup is A) more expensive B) have more time between vollies and C) deals less effective damage per volley.

That said, seeing how you speak of volleys, it almost seems like you're still using grouped guns other than for reloads - which you really shouldn't in a mach. Especially not now that it's so fast to swap between grouped and ungrouped.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.17 20:51:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 17/03/2011 20:53:37
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 22:08:48
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 22:02:20
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 15/03/2011 21:52:36
Originally by: Pod Amarr
That would then bring out the question:

At which point [range] would a CNR doing 820 dps with fury Cruises doing the clean damage type outperform the Machariel?
Question



You mean and also with drones, because a CNR ain't pushin that much DPS at all 5's.



With all 5s and 4x CN BCUs you get 838 missile DPS with T2 Fury missiles. 820 DPS with spec 4.

Tuskar
Posted - 2011.03.17 21:54:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:58:10
Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:54:58
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Alonzo Harris
Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges.


Using Faction ammo on a Mach is efficient from an isk/hour perspective.


No its not
stop being idiots

and AB is way to go. you can speed tank the battleships so you need to cycle your booster once every 2-5minutes

stop failing

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.03.17 22:43:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Tuskar
Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:58:10
Edited by: Tuskar on 17/03/2011 21:54:58
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Alonzo Harris
Using faction ammo on a Mach is ******ed, you use about 2-3k per mission and at over 1k/round that doesn't help your income much, especially not if, like the OP, you want to sit so deep in falloff you keep wasting ammo. Sure, you'll mission a bit faster but it's not worth it. If anything use barrage (assuming angel missions), this is much cheaper and gives you a much bigger increase in dps at longer ranges.


Using Faction ammo on a Mach is efficient from an isk/hour perspective.


No its not
stop being idiots

and AB is way to go. you can speed tank the battleships so you need to cycle your booster once every 2-5minutes

stop failing


IMHO failing would consist of needing more tank on a mach for missions.

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.03.18 00:26:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: freshspree on 18/03/2011 00:29:58
MAX dps with regular ammo, T2 guns and 4 gyros is about 1000 and 1200 with faction ammo. If you use both, you'll find out that faction ammo only saves ya one volley at most and that's about 3.3 secs which is nothing tbh. You also notice the difference only when you hit battleships, battlecruisers and down (exempt elite rats) will still die in the same amount of volleys regardless of which ammo you use. IMHO, a mach should have semiconductors and not CCCs as rigs if you don't have decent skills but anything goes if your skills are up there, you can as well fit falloff boosting or whatever kinda rig ya want.

It also falls under the EVE rule that cost/effectiveness gives you a log curve when you plot it out and it's a rare kinda log curve as it looks very similar to a steep cliff(very very steep).

So, I've said it, faction ammo isn't worth it for missions. It should only be used in PVP or when using artillery as those conserve ammo pretty well.

~CAN WE END THE THREAD NOW?

Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
Posted - 2011.03.18 06:45:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones

You dont seem to realize that increasing DPS does not decrease mission completion time unless you can decrease the ammount of volleys or the time between volleys. Simple mechanics.


A rat at 70km will take more shots to kill than the very same rat 50km away.

You will improve your chances of of your turrets hitting by using your AB properly (getting closer to rats and minimizing their transveral velocity to you)

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.03.18 11:25:00 - [40]
 

Zooming around with a Domi AB is more fun. If I just wanted a ship that could warp in and sit still while shooting rats I'd use a CNR.

Marco P
Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2011.03.19 09:42:00 - [41]
 

OK, here are some rounded numbers for ease of reading.

A 4 RF gyro fit Mach with CCCs and short range ammo pushes out a max of 960 dps (ignoring drones) with 4 + 60 opt + falloff (numbers courtesy of EFT).

At 53.5k this falls to 480 dps (50%). Down to 23.5k (860 dps) the graph is fairly linear giving a dps increase of 125 per 10k. Inside that the next 10k gives 70 more dps then it gets very flat and transversal can become an issue.

This is why I usually try to sit at 10-20k in a mach and if I have an AB I can get there quicker. So for me, in most missions an AB is worth it - it makes a considerable difference to real dps. Of course if you warp in to the middle of a bunch of rats theres no point.

Lastly, I have also used a Mach for anomalies when the extra speed tank is necessary (I don't have a billion isk booster).

Whimsical One
Gallente
Posted - 2011.03.19 10:08:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Whimsical One on 19/03/2011 10:14:58

Demolishar
Posted - 2011.03.19 11:30:00 - [43]
 

Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts:

1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine.
2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them.
3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive.
4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using.

Yes, I'm probably very inefficient.

Alonzo Harris
Posted - 2011.03.19 11:41:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts:

1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine.
2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them.
3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive.
4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using.

Yes, I'm probably very inefficient.


1) faction can make is better/easier, use where applicable but just ignore the "needs to fit X-type" crew
2) sentries can add useful damage, light drones to take care of frigs you didn't pop for whatever reason
3) RF can be useful, arguably. Personally I never bothered
4) because you fight in falloff and at 80km you do half the damage compared to being at 50km, so if there's a group of rats out of range you burn towards them while firing, increasing your dps

Marco P
Really Nice And Laidback Corporation
Posted - 2011.03.19 11:58:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts:

1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine.
2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them.
3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive.
4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using.

Yes, I'm probably very inefficient.


1. I agree for the tank but for the gyros you get more dps = make isk quicker.
2. Also agree, but also agree with Alonzo's comment about frigs that get in close for some reason.
3. Extensive discussion on this and many other threads - most (including me) don't use it. I do on my Vargur though.
4. See Alonzo's answer and my post a few up. If you are just going to sit at 50k+ then don't use a Mach unless it is just because it is a cool ship and you revel in inefficiency!

NoNah
Posted - 2011.03.19 15:45:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Demolishar

1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine.

It's not binary, being able to complete a mission shouldn't be the goal, it's should simply be assumed. Faction gyros drastically increase your yield and decrease the time spent on missions. If you can tank a mission fitting faction tank just makes your setup worse as it increases the value and hence the risks involved without granting you any extra benefit.
[qoute]
2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them.


Same as above, while you CAN kill frigates with guns, it takes time which you could've spent shooting battleships. Using sentries isn't a bad idea and means you will shoot frigates with guns aswell. Just make sure your guns aren't grouped.

Quote:
3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive.

Only worth it if your isk/lp is high already. If you're already doing some 13-1400 dps adding the extra bit from faction ammo can mean you can kill certain NPCs or buildings in less volleys or avoid some spawns entirely. It's not for all setups and situations.
Quote:
4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using.
And your damage starts diminishing at what... 4km?

Dek'athor
Posted - 2011.03.22 09:34:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Dek''athor on 22/03/2011 09:44:07
Originally by: Demolishar
Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts:

1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine.
2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them.
3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive.
4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using.

Yes, I'm probably very inefficient.


1. Faction gyros increase your damage. Nuff said. Faction tank gives more room for error. Faction propulsion sucks your cap less...

2. Your guns won't hit frigates orbiting at under 5km range. Feel free to waste your ammo trying. Drones will kill those critters just fine. And no, you can't pop ALL frigs from range, there are missions that pop you in 5k range of scram/web frigs that auto-aggro. I do prefer to lock on the frigs and pop them from 50-70k range without drone assist where possible tho.

3. I dun bother with it. I have about 60+50+50=160k combined rounds of different T1 ammos stashed, self made using reprocessed crap loots (I sometimes loot and salvage before calling it for the nite)

4. I only bothered with (faction) AB after getting a beefy enough tank. A 800 dps tank minimum (rat specific) is my comfort zone, AB is only a bonus on top of this.

Case study: worlds collide pocket 2: you can't pop the webbing drones due to tracking issues, you can't deploy the drones as they get aggro, one wrong move and you also get aggro. Pocket hits hard and you will be 2-3 webbed and double scrammed (hope you are platinum ensured, good thing for me that first time in that pocket was with a T1 BS...and no, it didn't end well).

How I clear it with the mach: have (faction is better) AB fit, activate it, double-clik in space to move away from the rest of the spawn, kill what you can from the auto-aggro pack at warpin.
You will move at about 120m/s with (usually) a single web on you. At 45-50km away from the rest of the spawn I deploy drones to kill the webber frigates. Start locking on the rest of the packs/frigates (from long range yo!) and insta pop them. Process may take a bit but is safe.

Oh ya, almost forgot: Smash the supplier (vs Amarr). You can't clear it with any sort of efficiency if you don't have AB

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.03.23 01:13:00 - [48]
 

Nope -- but if you're Amarrian, it's a fixed cost instead of proportional, and you can sell it back when you're done. Very Happy

freshspree
Caldari
Dissonance Corp
Posted - 2011.03.23 06:44:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Demolishar
Having recently bought a Machariel and T2 fitted it, I have these thoughts:

1. Why bother with faction fits? This T2 fit works fine.
2. Why bother with drones? The guns kill all frigates 99% of the time. And I find I lose more drones to D/C than I make money from killing a few frigates with them.
3. Why bother with RF ammo? It's very expensive.
4. Why bother with an AB? I have up to 80km falloff depending on which fit I'm using.

Yes, I'm probably very inefficient.


Have you really tried shooting from 80kms? I don't think so


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